Quote from: Raell on January 07, 2017, 04:22:24 AM
On Saturday, a United States district judge ruled that doctors may turn away women who have had abortions, and transgender patients, on the basis of religious freedom.

In his order, Judge Reed O'Connor argued laws that would otherwise forbid gender-based discrimination require doctors "to remove the categorical exclusion of transitions and abortions (a condition they assert is a reflection of their religious beliefs and an exercise of their religion) and conduct an individualized assessment of every request for those procedures."

Judge rules doctors can refuse trans patients and women who have had abortions  https://mic.com/articles/164234/judge-rules-doctors-can-refuse-trans-patients-and-women-who-have-had-abortions#.cCjJvZXzG

I should pay more attention to this stuff but i don't and i actually have a good reason for not doing so because i already know people where going to attempt to do this didn't shock me.
Don't listen to it, yea it sucks, no it doesn't help but that's the world it happens and i'd highly suggest to anyone finding a doctor inside the lgbt community's or a hospital who are accepting to lgbt people and trans people.
Because then you don't got to worries about things as dumb as this ruling was.

I'm getting concerned about this religious freedom law thing. We have similar issues in the UK/Eire regards how Christian/Muslim business owners can treat gays and transgender people.

When it comes to small and personal businesses I guess you have to allow them freedom to discriminate; but when they work for public healthcare or a large company and that religious belief interferes with doing your job for that company you should be fired. A doctor refusing care to someone who needs it especially. Go set up a faith healing walk-in if you can't handle treating human beings equally, you are a liability to the health profession.

Someone needs to make a database based map that shows all the lgbt / trans friendly doctors in the area, along with what insurance they will accept (hopefully nationwide.)  I would much rather deal with someone that I knew was trans friendly. 

I reckon all members living in the US should migrate to Australia. We will not trump any of that nonsense here!
Judith

Quote from: Kylo on January 07, 2017, 09:25:20 PM
A doctor refusing care to someone who needs it especially. Go set up a faith healing walk-in if you can't handle treating human beings equally, you are a liability to the health profession.

Yes!  Not to mention that people are lined up to get into medical school.  Every picky doctor that won't treat people is taking a spot away from someone who might've been more open and forgiving.  And in smaller communities, people already have fewer choices, so this can literally be the difference between life and death.  I really wish the AMA and other licensing agencies would take a stronger position on this.  Then if you wanted to go practice medicine at home to your church group, go ahead, and do it without a license.  ( I have to go outside for a while, as this conversation just keeps making me madder and madder) 

Erin

Hmm..moving to Australia sounds like a great idea, no matter for what reason!

Someone could make an app that shows the location of LGBTQ-friendly care givers, or have a website list.

Quote from: Dayta on January 07, 2017, 10:29:56 PM
Yes!  Not to mention that people are lined up to get into medical school.  Every picky doctor that won't treat people is taking a spot away from someone who might've been more open and forgiving.  And in smaller communities, people already have fewer choices, so this can literally be the difference between life and death.  I really wish the AMA and other licensing agencies would take a stronger position on this.  Then if you wanted to go practice medicine at home to your church group, go ahead, and do it without a license.  ( I have to go outside for a while, as this conversation just keeps making me madder and madder) 

Erin

They should make sure anyone licensed to practice upholds the Hippocratic Oath above their religion.

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:...

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

I thought all real doctors were supposed to be aware of this. Clearly if religious doctors are now allowed to turn away "sinners" or people they don't like they are hardly worthy of the title.

My kneejerk reaction to this is one of being pissed that we have to endure this crap in 2017.

Once I give some time to looking at it in a few more facets, the fact they want to exclude me is fine.  I would truly not want to be their patient as they are tainted.  While I may disagree with the religious aspect of their practice, I also must be able to give that which I ask for in return.  If no respect is given their ignorance, what respect can I expect in return?

In the end, it is cases like this that march up the court rungs.  These are the steps to the SCOTUS where the 'bathroom' issue will be aired for all to see.

Hi Kylo,

I was just looking for the Hippocratic oath to quote! All medical doctors/physicians should follow it or get another job!

Hi Judithlynn,

Happy for everyone to come to Australia!

Riki

Kaitylynn, I mostly agree. The problem with right to exclude laws is that they mostly get passed in areas where people's prejudices are shared. If one doctor refuses me as a patient I'm probably better off. If there are three doctors within reasonable distance and all of them refuse where am I then?

Quote from: Kylo on January 08, 2017, 08:54:48 AM
They should make sure anyone licensed to practice upholds the Hippocratic Oath above their religion.

...the Hippocratic Oath....

I thought all real doctors were supposed to be aware of this. Clearly if religious doctors are now allowed to turn away "sinners" or people they don't like they are hardly worthy of the title.

You beat me by a couple hours.  However, you only listed the modernized version.  The traditional\original oath has a part that is more open to personal interpretation (listed below).  We can cannot always agree with how a person interprets something (pointed out in underline and bold).  Take into account, this oath was taken way, way, way back between the 5th and 3rd century BC.  Back when you had only men and women.  Back when same gender intercourse was commonality.  Around the same time as Jesus was alive.  All this according to Wikipedia.

I swear by Apollo The Healer, by Asclepius, by Hygieia, by Panacea, and by all the Gods and Goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will carry out, according to my ability and judgment, this oath and this indenture.

To hold my teacher in this art equal to my own parents; to make him partner in my livelihood; when he is in need of money to share mine with him; to consider his family as my own brothers, and to teach them this art, if they want to learn it, without fee or indenture; to impart precept, oral instruction, and all other instruction to my own sons, the sons of my teacher, and to indentured pupils who have taken the physician's oath, but to nobody else.

I will use treatment to help the sick according to my ability and judgment, but never with a view to injury and wrong-doing. Neither will I administer a poison to anybody when asked to do so, nor will I suggest such a course. Similarly I will not give to a woman a pessary to cause abortion. But I will keep pure and holy both my life and my art. I will not use the knife, not even, verily, on sufferers from stone, but I will give place to such as are craftsmen therein.

Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick, and I will abstain from all intentional wrong-doing and harm, especially from abusing the bodies of man or woman, bond or free. And whatsoever I shall see or hear in the course of my profession, as well as outside my profession in my intercourse with men, if it be what should not be published abroad, I will never divulge, holding such things to be holy secrets.

Now if I carry out this oath, and break it not, may I gain for ever reputation among all men for my life and for my art; but if I transgress it and forswear myself, may the opposite befall me.

Now, for something more interesting and confusing.  Nature loves diversity.  And, according to Christian belief, God created all so therefore, God also loves diversity (because he...which I use lightly because God was neither he nor she but a conglomeration of all living things) because God created nature.  In which case, those same doctors who refuse to treat patients based on gender and how it violates their religious beliefs are also violation their beliefs by going against God and what God created.  Maybe Hippocratic Oath should now read Hypocritical Oath (hmm).

It is also safe to assume that every living thing undergoes changes throughout the course of its life (cave people to us modern day people).  Perhaps, just perhaps, we are experiencing that change this day.  Not with only transgender, but with all aspects of LGBTQ(etc, etc).  To clarify, the "change" is not meant that we choose to be who we are; but rather nature has placed us somewhere in the middle and we have to "adjust" ourselves to fit the expected norm of society.  The same society where Christian beliefs outweigh nature, which nature was created by their Christian beliefs.

Right.  Yikes.  Quite long-winded and Apologies for that and if may have confounded or stepped across the line for some.  I did not mean to by any means.  I was raised Christian (which I always didn't feel comfortable with), but after high\secondary school I hover between atheist and Buddhism.

In the end, "can't we all just get along?"  According to society - no.  However, we need to make it a point to get along within our own society within society.

That's why I'm glad the modernized version states a doctor should refer to the knowledge base of science, science has found ->-bleeped-<- to be a real phenomenon, medical science found it to be a potential serious condition with a 'cure'. Our voices are a part of those studies, which is important.

Otherwise you could go either way by saying not to play God and "do no harm".

Medical science has only come as far as it has on the transgender topic because of the respect and faith in scientific and medical findings. Without those they'd still be drilling holes in skulls to 'let the demons out'. It's imperative doctors respect it.

Belief in science and in simple facts is optional in America.  Much more important is believing whatever is necessary to maintain one's group identity. 


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: Deborah on January 08, 2017, 03:21:53 PM
Belief in science and in simple facts is optional in America.  Much more important is believing whatever is necessary to maintain one's group identity. 


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Yep, that is the unfortunate reality.  It is pretty twisted as well, the last Christian organization I worked at was big into putting on the image of charity, you know, like building homes for the needy (at a price, a rather high one mind you)  all the while, calling the police on the homeless living behind the store because, well, they were scaring off the customers.. gotta love it all.  Not to mention all of the outright bigotry, it was absolute insanity and really depressing to witness.  Image was everything to people there, and it was clearly maintained by who could be the most hateful.

Sorry for sounding a bit bitter, but I've seen it all and these people drive me through the roof with their absolute hatred, disguised in a shroud of love, and their perpetual persecution complex whenever anyone asks for a little tolerance, because god forbid they actually treat others kindly, that is outright an attack on their beliefs.

I could go on and on, I really could, I am so utterly disgusted by these sorts of people, and have been for a long time, every time I have tried to reach out to them, my hand is slapped away, and some passage is read off justifying their hatred in all things.  Point that out to them, and you suddenly become the hateful one.


It doesn't help that I spend entirely too much time on sites like yahoo news reading their horrible comments.  I think most of them just want to be part of some group, and what better way to be part of a group and maintain group, outside of hatred of all things LGBT. 

Thankfully religion is slowly dying in this country, but not quickly enough. 

(Sorry to our Christian members - liberal minded Christians rock!!)

I hear what you are saying Dee.  My view point is skewed by the healthcare system I work with where I, a trans-female, am accepted and treated with respect.  I understand there are those places where it is simply not so and for our brothers and sisters that reside in them...it is a big issue.

This case is going to be one of a few that are going to get compiled in to a suit that will be heard in the highest5 court.  The people that hold us in contempt the most are going to make sure that it gets there...though they may not realize it and most likely will not like the result.

For those stuck in the less (NON) accepting places...take heart that things are changing and you are not forgotten.  We have come a long way, but there is still so much more that needs to be done.