As many of you may know, my wife is still in the grieving phase after having learned of my gender identity. Right now, any female presentation I do (beyond stud earrings, my shaved body & face, and my lengthening hair) has to be done out of her sight. She can't, at this point, even watch me open clothes that come in shipments from Amazon and wherever else.  However, it's not really a don't ask, don't tell situation because she still wants me to be open and tell her about when I dress or buy new things or try new experiences.  While it can be tough, I totally understand where's she's at emotionally and am doing my best to accommodate her needs with regard to this and take it slow.

To assist with giving me space to experiment with presentation without being in front of her, she's told me that our lower level is my space.  My office is down here, I have a closet with all my wardrobe items that would be considered "female" and there's a bathroom where I can do makeup, shave, etc.  She only comes down to do laundry at this point.

So tonight we were talking and she informed me that she was nervous about a recent purchase I made. I bought a pair of women's tennis shoes which I told her about.  However, because I didn't specifically describe them or provide her a picture (she never asked for any such description or anything) she said she felt like I was being sneaky or hiding something.  So while I was out of the house over the weekend she went snooping through all my things.  She got upset about the style of shoes I bought and the fact that she knew I had already worn them. She also got upset that she discovered I had moved all my makeup from the closet to a drawer in the bathroom (one she never uses).  Told me I was "spreading out".  Now understand, when I say upset, I don't mean mad at me, rather just emotionally upset by the situation.

However, it made me feel about 2 inches tall. I'm not a child and I've been honest and upfront with her, so why is she secretly snooping through my things?  This also is not the first time she's done it either.  I'm not worried that she looked at my stuff.  There's nothing there I'm ashamed of or haven't told her about.  I'm however very hurt that instead of asking me about my things, she felt the need to go digging through secretly when I wasn't around.  Pretty ironic isn't it that her excuse for sneaking around was that she thought I was sneaking around. 

Unfortunately, right after I found out about all this, we had to go to my son's Orchestra Concert.  That was tough.  I don't really know what to say to her and I can't even look at her right now.  I'm crushed.  I had been hoping lately that her improved mood was a sign maybe she was starting to progress and that maybe I'd see a small sign or two of acceptance soon.  Instead I just got punched in the gut and she's worse off than ever.

Tonight is going to be a terrible night.  I can tell you already we're going to be up late talking because I can't let this sit without getting addressed. I've been fighting back tears all evening and I'm sure the minute we start talking it's all going to flow out. 

Sorry, I just needed to vent to help get my head straight on this.  Thanks for "listening".

A thought comes to mind. It's possible that your wife is uncomfortable viewing your feminine items while you are around but is more able to deal with it when you are not present. She may fear an unwanted reaction in front of you so and by doing it in private, she her reaction won't be visible to you.  For her it could be a baby step toward accepting you. Possibly what you could do is leave your new purchase where she can inspect them before you put them away. Maybe in time she will accept this better but for now it appears she can only take this in small dosages.

Vent away. We are here for you.

Unfortunately, this kind of swinging back and forth on acceptance level is common, especially soon after her learning about your true self. It is easy to get caught up in the hopes and the excitement of exploring your self and be moving faster than she is. This can trigger fears and the anger part of grieving.

You are right that this will take lots of difficult talking. It is worrisome that she has such a lack of trust right now. It is partly understandable since hiding yourself from her feels like one giant lie that broke the trust, but that does not excuse the going through your stash.

Hugs.

Amanda

Sounds a bit familiar from my own experience a decade ago. I'm reminded of what my therapist told me way back then. For a moment, put yourself in your wife's shoes (pardon the pun.
Here is a woman who I assume you've known a while. You fell in love as man and wife, got married, maybe had kids. Now she's facing this challenge in her perception of roles. She married a man, but now, she's confused. She's worried maybe what kids, family and friends will think.
It's often very hard for a spouse to accept. Some do, most don't.
You either need to give it time, see a therapist together, determine how far you want to go.
But whatever you do, don't make it about you.

Just my two cents worth.

I may be unforgiving about this, and I do apologize thats just my nature. In all honesty how much of this controlling and (in my opinion) abusive behavior is new since coming out to her? I find it hard to believe these behaviors invented themselves over night. I know in a marriage mutually approving of purchases is no strange territory personal items and clothes shouldve never become one of em. Im in the school of thought couples therapy is a good idea.

Lots of good advice here. My experience is similar to yours and what others here have described. Initially even the long hair and shaved legs made my wife very uncomfortable, she couldn't look at me en femme and for the longest time I felt really horrible as a result. When your best friend looks at you like you are a disgusting monster that can really hurt. I realised that she was not only struggling with her own feelings of "I'm not gay" and she really doesn't "fancy" me (is that just a Scottish term?) but she was also worried about what the rest of the world would think of her. This was made clear to me when I started going out with blue nail polish on, she looked like a rabbit in the headlights. For years I kept dialling it back but pushing just enough that she was uncomfortable but could cope. The difference now is dramatic. We went out shopping today with me in nail polish, jeggings, chelsea boots and long hair and she is completely OK with that now. I only wear skirts and dresses in the house and she seems to feel comfortable with that now also, seeing how much happier I was really helped with that. I started with female trousers first though until she got used to that. It has taken a lot of time and patience on both our parts but I can hardly believe the distance we've come and I'm getting hopeful about the future again. Talking is vital but so is exposure if you want to move on yourself. Only you can decide how far you need to go and what is a deal breaker for you. It can be hard to know what these points are until you reach them. Letting her look through your stuff can be a positive thing. The first time my wife borrowed something from me was a very nice feeling, as was the first time she offered me something of hers she didn't want.
Try to cut your wife some slack, she is still there and that can be built on if that is what you want.

All the very best
B

I appreciate the advice.  We are in couples counseling (in addition to each seeing our own therapist). I do fully respect what she's having to come to terms with and I want to respect every boundary and limit she has set.  At her request, I do tell her about every single purchase I make if it has anything to do with feminine clothing or other items (that's a lot more than I share with her about any of my other day to day purchases, but I'm ok with that).

But let me ask you all this, shouldn't respect of boundaries be a two way street?  I mean her reason for wanting to know about every purchase is that she doesn't want me to be sneaking around.  Yet, then she takes it upon herself to sneak around and go through my things?  I mean had she wanted to know where anything was or see it or whatever, I'd have gladly shown her if she'd have just asked.  It's the sneaking behind my back that bothers me, not that she's looking through my stuff.

Dena, you do bring up an very interesting viewpoint that I hadn't considered.  Perhaps that does have something to do with it, at least on some level.  We have a counseling session this week and I'll probably be bringing this up, maybe we can get to that answer.

Again thanks all for letting me vent and also resetting my mind a little bit here too.  I appreciate it.

Quote from: lisawb on January 10, 2017, 08:38:46 AM
But let me ask you all this, shouldn't respect of boundaries be a two way street?  I mean her reason for wanting to know about every purchase is that she doesn't want me to be sneaking around.  Yet, then she takes it upon herself to sneak around and go through my things?  I mean had she wanted to know where anything was or see it or whatever, I'd have gladly shown her if she'd have just asked.  It's the sneaking behind my back that bothers me, not that she's looking through my stuff.

That's my reasoning as well. There seems to be a trust and boundaries issue here far beyond 'coping' with your being trans that needs to be addressed.

You aren't alone.

When I was early in my transition and coming out process, we had agreed that I would have one specific part of the closet where I would keep everything, instead of the 'secret stashes' I had kept for decades.  I had my own drawer and a section of hanger space set up so that none of my things could be accidentally seen.  The drawer even had in internal cover so that if it was 'accidentally' opened, nothing would be seen until the cover was raised. Everything on hangers was hidden behind a fabric partition, sort of a small curtain that had to be moved aside.

We did go to one couple's counseling session.  She never wanted to go back, as she felt the counselor had attacked her.  He had asked her about her feelings regarding my transition.

My spouse had a terrible fear of accidentally seeing me or my clothing.  As I was going to therapy sessions (individual and group) as myself, she came up with a complex set of protocols I had to follow to avoid being seen by her or her friends.  When leaving, I would pre-arrange the time I would get ready and the time I would be leaving with her.  She would leave the master bedroom and sequester herself behind a locked door at the far end of the house.  I'd get myself together and leave.  On returning, I would text her my anticipated arrival time.  When I got home, I had to check for other vehicles, and circle the block if someone was over and wait for an 'all clear' text.  I was to remotely open the garage door, drive in, and remotely close the door before getting out.  I was to then text her that I was her, and wait.  Once she had sequestered herself behind a locked door I would get a text telling me to come in, and I would go directly to the master bath and closet, closing the door behind me and texting her that I was properly secured.  This was a bit humiliating. OK, it made me feel like a feared creature, a THING to be despised.

I was permitted to under-dress, cotton briefs and tank tops.  After I started HRT, I had a bit of a headlight problem and had to add in a sports bra under the tank top.  We still see each other infrequently at the mediation lawyer's office.  I am required to present male there, or she'll just leave, ending the session.  It's still hard to do this, even if just for a couple of hours.  I have another mediation session this afternoon. [emoji17]. We're almost done, I hope.

For folks in their 60s something like 90% of marriages do not survive one partner's coming out.  Acceptance by spouses among older folks is really poor, even with time and counseling.


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Quote from: Michelle_P on January 10, 2017, 09:35:13 AM
You aren't alone.

When I was early in my transition and coming out process, we had agreed that I would have one specific part of the closet where I would keep everything, instead of the 'secret stashes' I had kept for decades.  I had my own drawer and a section of hanger space set up so that none of my things could be accidentally seen.  The drawer even had in internal cover so that if it was 'accidentally' opened, nothing would be seen until the cover was raised. Everything on hangers was hidden behind a fabric partition, sort of a small curtain that had to be moved aside.

We did go to one couple's counseling session.  She never wanted to go back, as she felt the counselor had attacked her.  He had asked her about her feelings regarding my transition.

My spouse had a terrible fear of accidentally seeing me or my clothing.  As I was going to therapy sessions (individual and group) as myself, she came up with a complex set of protocols I had to follow to avoid being seen by her or her friends.  When leaving, I would pre-arrange the time I would get ready and the time I would be leaving with her.  She would leave the master bedroom and sequester herself behind a locked door at the far end of the house.  I'd get myself together and leave.  On returning, I would text her my anticipated arrival time.  When I got home, I had to check for other vehicles, and circle the block if someone was over and wait for an 'all clear' text.  I was to remotely open the garage door, drive in, and remotely close the door before getting out.  I was to then text her that I was her, and wait.  Once she had sequestered herself behind a locked door I would get a text telling me to come in, and I would go directly to the master bath and closet, closing the door behind me and texting her that I was properly secured.  This was a bit humiliating. OK, it made me feel like a feared creature, a THING to be despised.

I was permitted to under-dress, cotton briefs and tank tops.  After I started HRT, I had a bit of a headlight problem and had to add in a sports bra under the tank top.  We still see each other infrequently at the mediation lawyer's office.  I am required to present male there, or she'll just leave, ending the session.  It's still hard to do this, even if just for a couple of hours.  I have another mediation session this afternoon. [emoji17]. We're almost done, I hope.

For folks in their 60s something like 90% of marriages do not survive one partner's coming out.  Acceptance by spouses among older folks is really poor, even with time and counseling.


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This just HAS to be abuse of some kind. I know itd be called abuse if the situation were reversed. I dont understand how anyone can see that behavior as anything else let alone an acceptable 'coping mechanism.'

Im sorry you had/have to go through this.

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 10, 2017, 09:35:13 AM
You aren't alone.

When I was early in my transition and coming out process, we had agreed that I would have one specific part of the closet where I would keep everything, instead of the 'secret stashes' I had kept for decades.  I had my own drawer and a section of hanger space set up so that none of my things could be accidentally seen.  The drawer even had in internal cover so that if it was 'accidentally' opened, nothing would be seen until the cover was raised. Everything on hangers was hidden behind a fabric partition, sort of a small curtain that had to be moved aside.

We did go to one couple's counseling session.  She never wanted to go back, as she felt the counselor had attacked her.  He had asked her about her feelings regarding my transition.

My spouse had a terrible fear of accidentally seeing me or my clothing.  As I was going to therapy sessions (individual and group) as myself, she came up with a complex set of protocols I had to follow to avoid being seen by her or her friends.  When leaving, I would pre-arrange the time I would get ready and the time I would be leaving with her.  She would leave the master bedroom and sequester herself behind a locked door at the far end of the house.  I'd get myself together and leave.  On returning, I would text her my anticipated arrival time.  When I got home, I had to check for other vehicles, and circle the block if someone was over and wait for an 'all clear' text.  I was to remotely open the garage door, drive in, and remotely close the door before getting out.  I was to then text her that I was her, and wait.  Once she had sequestered herself behind a locked door I would get a text telling me to come in, and I would go directly to the master bath and closet, closing the door behind me and texting her that I was properly secured.  This was a bit humiliating. OK, it made me feel like a feared creature, a THING to be despised.

I was permitted to under-dress, cotton briefs and tank tops.  After I started HRT, I had a bit of a headlight problem and had to add in a sports bra under the tank top.  We still see each other infrequently at the mediation lawyer's office.  I am required to present male there, or she'll just leave, ending the session.  It's still hard to do this, even if just for a couple of hours.  I have another mediation session this afternoon. [emoji17]. We're almost done, I hope.

For folks in their 60s something like 90% of marriages do not survive one partner's coming out.  Acceptance by spouses among older folks is really poor, even with time and counseling.


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That is HEARTBREAKING to read, Michelle. I'm so sorry. No one should be treated that way.

As the cis partner in a relationship with a woman who just came out as trans, I have to tell you that what she's doing is completely wrong. She's looking for ways to exert control, probably because she feels like she has none, and it sounds like she's also looking for reasons to justify her anger towards you, which is unjustifiable.

She isn't being fair to you and it sounds like she's trying to, in a roundabout way, make you feel guilty about being trans, which is something you should never feel guilty about.

Quote from: Selenakyle on January 10, 2017, 10:55:04 AM
As the cis partner in a relationship with a woman who just came out as trans, I have to tell you that what she's doing is completely wrong. She's looking for ways to exert control, probably because she feels like she has none, and it sounds like she's also looking for reasons to justify her anger towards you, which is unjustifiable.

She isn't being fair to you and it sounds like she's trying to, in a roundabout way, make you feel guilty about being trans, which is something you should never feel guilty about.

100% this. If my partner were adamant I 'keep it out of sight.' Id oblige her by moving out and moving on. My patience level is absolute zero.

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 10, 2017, 09:35:13 AM
My spouse had a terrible fear of accidentally seeing me or my clothing.  As I was going to therapy sessions (individual and group) as myself, she came up with a complex set of protocols I had to follow to avoid being seen by her or her friends.  When leaving, I would pre-arrange the time I would get ready and the time I would be leaving with her.  She would leave the master bedroom and sequester herself behind a locked door at the far end of the house.  I'd get myself together and leave.  On returning, I would text her my anticipated arrival time.  When I got home, I had to check for other vehicles, and circle the block if someone was over and wait for an 'all clear' text.  I was to remotely open the garage door, drive in, and remotely close the door before getting out.  I was to then text her that I was her, and wait.  Once she had sequestered herself behind a locked door I would get a text telling me to come in, and I would go directly to the master bath and closet, closing the door behind me and texting her that I was properly secured.  This was a bit humiliating. OK, it made me feel like a feared creature, a THING to be despised.

Oh gawd, that's even worse than my situation.  Thankfully for me, our home makes it a little better. Since we have an entire finished basement that she has little reason to ever go into, that's my space.  My office, a bathroom, a fourth bedroom with my "femme" closet are all down here.  Obviously, whenever I'm mixing presentation or going full female, I don't go upstairs if she's home.  If I want to go out presenting anything other than fully male, we have a back stairway that goes straight from the basement to the garage.  So I use that to avoid going upstairs and possibly having her have to face me, the same when I come back home.  She does want to know when I go out presenting mixed or fully female.  For her it's more of a safety thing.  She understands the risks I face going in public dressed that way and wants to know what's going on in case something happens.  There's probably ulterior motives there too, but I'm ok with that.  I have no problem telling her where I'm going and how I'll be dressed.

The struggle I have with the overall arrangement is like you pointed out Michelle.  I feel like some horrible monster that she wants to hide away.  Our youngest two children are in middle and high school so still at home.  Neither has a problem with my gender identity or my presentation so thankfully they're not afraid to come downstairs.  I'm sure  on some level this might be considered an abusive situation (Michelle yours definitely sounds like it).  The one light at the end of the tunnel that I have is that at least in words she has said she knows she needs to face it and is just trying to get to a point where she can deal with it.  Her therapist is pushing her on it and I need to do some pushing at the right times as well.

Quote from: Selenakyle on January 10, 2017, 10:55:04 AM
As the cis partner in a relationship with a woman who just came out as trans, I have to tell you that what she's doing is completely wrong. She's looking for ways to exert control, probably because she feels like she has none, and it sounds like she's also looking for reasons to justify her anger towards you, which is unjustifiable.

She isn't being fair to you and it sounds like she's trying to, in a roundabout way, make you feel guilty about being trans, which is something you should never feel guilty about.

I think the big difference is you're accepting, or understanding your partner. The OPs wife doesn't sound accepting at all.

I sort of chuckle how I got to where I am. In my previous marriage, I had a lot of angst, anxiety and anger. Unfortunately, my ex was bore the brunt of that, until one fateful day in 2007 when I said I was leaving. At this point, I didn't even know I was trans, just knew I was confused.
Going throb therapy, it all made sense. I wrote a letter to my ex, she called me and said she understood. I did not in any way want to get back with her, but it was nice to know. She sort of wished I had known before we got married.

Better late than never.

There is a delicate balance here and honestly, I've already accepted the fact that there's a very good chance my marriage will not make it through this. However, we are high school sweethearts, have been together for almost 25 years (married for 18) and have three kids, so there is an investment there that I don't want to just give up on.  She is a hugely important part of my life and losing her would be devastating to me on so many levels.

Additionally, I want to make sure I'm being fair in that she is at least trying. While her emotions are driving her reactions and a lot of her actions toward me, she is also feeling guilty about her inability to accept this supportively. She's encouraged me on repeated occasions that no matter how hard this is for her, I need to figure out what I need.  So in that way she's at least accepted that it is what it is, however she does still cope by avoidance. The fact that she's seeing a couples counselor with me is also IMHO evidence that she's making an effort to make this work. So with that in mind, I'm still trying to balance my need to be able to express myself and be who I am with taking it slowly to allow her to come to terms with all of this and hopefully begin to accept and support who I am.  Only time will tell right now but I am also on the lookout for things turning emotionally abusive.  If they do, I'm out.

Lisa's situation strikes me as similar to my own that I have now resolved.  I just wanted her to know that many of us have gone through this.

As we age, we lose flexibility in adapting to new interpersonal situations.  Combine this with being raised in a transphobic culture (cops arresting transwomen for presenting as themselves in public, Compton Cafeteria Riot, etc), and it can be pretty hard to deal with.  I couldn't bend, and just broke last year.  My spouse couldn't adapt, and she was raised by a sociologist and a public health doctor who worked with Benjamin on trans care in 60's San Francisco!   This simply wasn't what she had signed up for in marriage, and she couldn't handle the fear of discovery and was afraid of public humiliation and shaming from her friends.  This did result in an abusive situation.  My therapist was regularly asking about this.

We resolved the issue, as so many others our age have, by separating and going through a divorce.  While this makes me very sad, and I miss her, at the same time it was almost certainly for the best. I now live full time as myself, and for the first time in my life, I can act as myself, interact with others as myself, and live life on my own terms.  This is a good and healthy change for me.

Lisa, you have an enormous advantage in that communication has not been cut off.  Your spouse is trying to process this and is seeing a therapist.  Mine just recently, after initiating divorce proceedings, started visiting a therapist.  (I have no idea if the therapist is any good, or is passing along reasonable information.  We have a number of "Christian therapists" in her town. Those are sort of scary misinformation sources.)  It sounds like your spouses therapist is doing the right thing.


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I think a lot of it has to do with envy. The fact transwomen are always working on their femininity, looks, style. I hate to paint with a wide brush but I feel many women give up trying and become satisfied with looking frumpy because of kids, housework, career.  Now she sees you getting new shoes, new clothes, new makeup etc and she is envious. Take her shopping and get her something sexy,together. Make her feel desirable, give her the benefit of your style choices.  Yes, your T level has hit the floor but, there is more to a sexual relationship than doing the act. In fact, tantric sex may be a way to tell her she is still desirable, your best friend and lover. While knocking her orgasmic socks off.

Dawn, you are on the right track. My wife mentioned yesterday that she feels pressure to compete with me because I am "a better girl" than her. Not the first time she's mentioned that either.  I have been very focused on being affirming and reminding her how wonderful and how gorgeous she is (my wife truly is amazing beautiful). I have done some shopping with her to get her new things, in fact after Christmas when on a trip to Kohl's with her and helped her pick out some new clothes.  I actually pushed her into getting a few things she didn't think she'd like that now she loves so she is getting the benefit of my style choices whether that's good or bad in her eyes, I don't know.

I'm not on any hormones or blockers at this point yet, so T levels are still running pretty high and performance in bed hasn't been a problem.  That's another thing I'm trying to focus on actually is making sure we keep a good intimate relationship whatever shape that takes.

Lisa, You sound like myself and my wife a few years ago. If you both want it you will find a balance you can both live with. It will be hard at times though. Thing will get better and then worse and then better. Probably a few times but as long as the trend is upwards you'll get there. Good luck.

B