Anyone know if the dose sharply affects the eventual pitch of the voice?

Not asking for dosage information. Just whether a low, med or higher dose is known to cause any effects on it. I am not sure exactly how the window for changes from T operates, although evidently parts time based and parts dosage based. There is obv a cutoff point at which a dose of T is too small to effect much change on a body.

Currently I'm on a low to medium dose and seeing some changes but I am wondering if a higher dose at a critical time might yield better results. The problem is there is no information on that that I could find. Would someone who stayed on a lower dose eventually end up with a higher voice than someone on higher dose after the changes window has passed? Probably a stupid question, but worth a shot.

I'm curious about this, here's my experience:

day 1- 6 months: dose A (low dose)
6 months- 1 year: dose B (double my low dose, I think "average")
1 year-1.5 yr: dose A and eventually half of dose A- I was running out of T but was on the waiting list for a new doctor because my old one was misgendering me and not testing my T levels so I didnt wanna go back for a refill
1.5 yr-2 yr: dose B again
and 2yr- now: dose C (3x dose A)

I have a relatively high voice. I really wish it changed more. It did change a lot, but it still is not a passing voice. I've always questioned whether it was the low dose and/or the instability of my dose.

My friend who is 8 months on T:
day 1- 6 months: dose B (average)
6 months-8 monhts: dose C (high)

He also has a higher voice. He obviously still has some time to change more, but he has a high voice. He too isn't happy with his changes. I believe his levels are still lowish which is why the doc keeps upping his dose. He might go up to a dose 2x what he started on.

On the contrary, two more of my friends, I think 9 months:
dose B the entire time

They have REALLY deep voices. They also might be upping to dose C.

So I have questioned often whether my voice was because of my dose, but comparing to other people I know, there really isn't much correlation. It might be because of the dose, it might not. It's not really conclusive. I don't think any big studies have been done but I'm curious about it.

It's kinda a grey area as to what 'low', 'medium' and 'high' doses are. T will work quicker in some individuals due to already naturally having high T levels;  but the changes will still happen in roughly the same time frame. I'm on gel so was given the basic starting dose; which for most trans men doesn't need to be increased. I've still had the physical changes within the expected time frames. The problem with increasing your dose is the likelihood of the extra T being converted back to estrogen; causing your physical progression to stall or to backtrack. Which is one of the reasons I'm not a fan of injectible testosterone.

As for voices still sounding high in some trans men; I reckon it's most likely due to them having unusually high pitched voices pre T. This ofc can be changed by basic voice training (talking in a monotone way from the chest and being aware of how you're inflecting your words)

All I know is that when my blood was tested years ago, they told me my testosterone levels were low but within the male range. Unfortunately I ended up with an extremely low male voice. I think it's a matter of genetics and time that will determine your final voice and dosage isn't overly critical.

Quote from: Kylo on January 11, 2017, 01:47:51 PM
Anyone know if the dose sharply affects the eventual pitch of the voice?

Not asking for dosage information. Just whether a low, med or higher dose is known to cause any effects on it. I am not sure exactly how the window for changes from T operates, although evidently parts time based and parts dosage based. There is obv a cutoff point at which a dose of T is too small to effect much change on a body.

Currently I'm on a low to medium dose and seeing some changes but I am wondering if a higher dose at a critical time might yield better results. The problem is there is no information on that that I could find. Would someone who stayed on a lower dose eventually end up with a higher voice than someone on higher dose after the changes window has passed? Probably a stupid question, but worth a shot.

Not a stupid question
I don't know much about this but from what i heard higher or lower dose won't matter it depends on your body and how it responds.

Thanks for the input everyone.

I had a relatively broad pitch range pre-T, could talk quite deep already or high if I wanted and now the range has nearly halved in almost 3 months on low-medium daily dose of T. My doctor suggested upping the dose if I want to, although water retention occurred when I tried that so if it can be helped I guess I'd rather avoid that particular problem, but if higher dose leads to better results at this time I'll do it.

At this point I have two "modes" of pitch that the voice can easily slip into. A slightly lower version of my old normal voice, and a much lower version I could never have reached without the T. I'm wondering if speaking in this lower voice more often will "help" the vocal cords in their job of changing. Or whether it doesn't matter either way. It sounds like a husky adolescent right now and a bit unpredictable but using it daily might 'strengthen' it, right? I think I need to go search out voice training information.

If you reach the lower voice by relaxing the muscles in your upper neck, that is the chest voice and it how males normally talk. It won't alter your voice development but it's not a problem to use it.

I am going through the alternating hoarser than heck and slightly more "normal but lower" i have dropped quite a bit though my normal speaking voice was pitched to chest voice and not head anyways. Today I totally lost my voice, sounded like a frog croaking which is normally a lead into another drop if the pattern holds. Biggest problem is trying to give a good explaination at work as to why i have sounded like I have a sore raspy throat for a month and a half. Think they are about ready to send my to the docs to make sure I don't have a problem LOL.

Quote from: Dena on January 11, 2017, 06:47:34 PM
If you reach the lower voice by relaxing the muscles in your upper neck, that is the chest voice and it how males normally talk. It won't alter your voice development but it's not a problem to use it.

That's exactly it. It's what comes out if just pushing air through the chords and not trying to intone. It's also much louder, for the same or less effort.

Quote from: patrick1967 on January 11, 2017, 06:58:11 PM
I am going through the alternating hoarser than heck and slightly more "normal but lower" i have dropped quite a bit though my normal speaking voice was pitched to chest voice and not head anyways. Today I totally lost my voice, sounded like a frog croaking which is normally a lead into another drop if the pattern holds. Biggest problem is trying to give a good explaination at work as to why i have sounded like I have a sore raspy throat for a month and a half. Think they are about ready to send my to the docs to make sure I don't have a problem LOL.

My significant other is maintaining there is no change in my voice when everyone else has noticed and commented on it without knowing the reason, lol. Your voice usually sounds lower in your own head than outside of it so I recorded it a few times the last 2 months to compare. The drop has been big so far but still not near where it needs to be. I don't like this genetic lottery stuff... can only hope there was more manliness in the mix than estrogen allowed.

Slightly off topic but does anyone else dislike the feeling that as a female your body was basically "not maturing" and being kept in a state that didn't feel fully developed? In a way I felt like I was being kept from my rightful adulthood by estrogen, or the body's lack of T. Also felt like being doomed to being treated more like a kid than not, and never being taken seriously. It's kind of incredible just how people respond to voices even, they definitely seem to take male voices more seriously. I wonder how my mother will react when she hears it. I know it will have some sort of impact.

Quote from: Kylo on January 11, 2017, 07:30:12 PM
That's exactly it. It's what comes out if just pushing air through the chords and not trying to intone. It's also much louder, for the same or less effort.

Our trained voice is a head voice where we tighten the same muscles. We lose volume but gain pitch and at first it feels like a bit of a strain. Over time it gets better but often I avoid talking over noise because I don't have the punch to drive through it. On the other hand, we have a renter with hearing difficulties and he talks so loud that both my mother and I maintain as much distance as possible to save our eardrums. Both of us have hearing difficulty but not when he is around.

Quote from: Dena on January 11, 2017, 07:41:44 PM
Our trained voice is a head voice where we tighten the same muscles. We lose volume but gain pitch and at first it feels like a bit of a strain. Over time it gets better but often I avoid talking over noise because I don't have the punch to drive through it. On the other hand, we have a renter with hearing difficulties and he talks so loud that both my mother and I maintain as much distance as possible to save our eardrums. Both of us have hearing difficulty but not when he is around.

I hear transwomen can train to higher pitch, but transmen really need to T to get there, the voice can't be trained lower if the vocal cords aren't thick or long enough or something. It's also interesting how body size and way a person uses voice impacts its range. I had a large female friend once who was the same height as me but her voice could almost break windows or scare the crap out of me, it was so loud. I don't think she was a singer or voice trained but maybe her size added power to her voice. As for me I'm a wispy streak, I still have doubts T or practice will get me all the way "there".

You are correct. Karen Carpenter was singing in her chest voice and that's how she had the full bodied voice. She was one of the early users of overdubbing so there were no backup singers as she did all the background herself. This page will explain in more detail about the voices and the ranges they handle. If you find there are way to many words, just go to the bottom and scroll up until you find the image and it will show you the ranges. An alto is about as low as a female voice can go though many women can't go that low.

I always used to joke about my "Teacher's voice" i studies theatre when I was younger as well as did educational programing for kids so i learned how to project from the chest and diaphram and rarely used a typical female head voice. I work at a grocery in the office and even before T could project across 5 cashier lanes with no difficulty. Right now my volume is a bit less with the adjustments but luckily i am used to using my voice in that way on a regular basis

Quote from: Dena on January 11, 2017, 08:08:51 PM
You are correct. Karen Carpenter was singing in her chest voice and that's how she had the full bodied voice. She was one of the early users of overdubbing so there were no backup singers as she did all the background herself. This page will explain in more detail about the voices and the ranges they handle. If you find there are way to many words, just go to the bottom and scroll up until you find the image and it will show you the ranges. An alto is about as low as a female voice can go though many women can't go that low.

Thanks for that. I have a piano... so I should be able to identify my range as it shows on the page.

Quote from: patrick1967 on January 11, 2017, 08:14:31 PM
I always used to joke about my "Teacher's voice" i studies theatre when I was younger as well as did educational programing for kids so i learned how to project from the chest and diaphram and rarely used a typical female head voice. I work at a grocery in the office and even before T could project across 5 cashier lanes with no difficulty. Right now my volume is a bit less with the adjustments but luckily i am used to using my voice in that way on a regular basis

I think must have done the same thing; I remember giving a graded presentation in uni a few years ago now and the two female graders telling me afterwards that my voice was "very aggressive". Not sure how, I was just speaking for the back of the class and in a no-nonsense way, I wasn't snarling at people. But they felt somehow there was something about it that was aggressive. I don't think they needed to tell me that either, since they were supposed to be grading the content, not the delivery. Maybe they were trying to nudge what they thought was a fellow female into being more feminine and thought they were doing me a favor.

Quote from: Kylo on January 11, 2017, 07:40:54 PM

Slightly off topic but does anyone else dislike the feeling that as a female your body was basically "not maturing" and being kept in a state that didn't feel fully developed? In a way I felt like I was being kept from my rightful adulthood by estrogen, or the body's lack of T. Also felt like being doomed to being treated more like a kid than not, and never being taken seriously. It's kind of incredible just how people respond to voices even, they definitely seem to take male voices more seriously. I wonder how my mother will react when she hears it. I know it will have some sort of impact.

Yeah definitely; one of the reasons I hated my body growing up and hated the first few months of being on T; while waiting for my voice to stop sounding so squeaky and female. Being trans has definitely given me loads more respect for women which I'm grateful for. I really don't know how they put up with everything they have to deal with daily.

I agree. I also have a lot of respect for them. But I also have a lot of new found respect for men, too. There is a lot they have to put up with that women aren't really aware of, or don't really care that they have to. And a male can't complain about it because nobody cares about men.

I think life sucks for both genders in different ways. The problem is only people like us are in a position to really know it. The genders are largely ignorant of each other's position.

Quote from: Kylo on January 12, 2017, 07:13:14 AM
I agree. I also have a lot of respect for them. But I also have a lot of new found respect for men, too. There is a lot they have to put up with that women aren't really aware of, or don't really care they they have to. And a male can't complain about it because nobody cares about men.

I think life sucks for both genders in different ways. The problem is only people like us are in a position to really know it. The genders are largely ignorant of each other's position.

Oh yeah; definitely have a new found respect for men. I never considered before the difficulties they also face due simply to their gender. And it slightly angers me it's glossed over in favour of concerns for female sexism. Not saying that's also not worthwhile but it should be given equal consideration.

And I totally agree with you about that too. Although that'll probably anger a few cis people but ofc you can't truly know unless you live a while in each other's lifes.

Quote from: Kylo on January 12, 2017, 07:13:14 AM
I agree. I also have a lot of respect for them. But I also have a lot of new found respect for men, too. There is a lot they have to put up with that women aren't really aware of, or don't really care that they have to. And a male can't complain about it because nobody cares about men.

I think life sucks for both genders in different ways. The problem is only people like us are in a position to really know it. The genders are largely ignorant of each other's position.

What do they have to put up with that woman don't?

Quote from: kings joker on January 21, 2017, 11:51:11 PM
What do they have to put up with that woman don't?

Toxic masculinity is the main one. Meaning men are seen as inferior, weak or 'gay' just because they show emotion or like femininine stuff or don't walk/talk how a man 'should'. Plus how it's much more acceptable for a girl/woman to be a bit masculine but if a boy/man was feminine then it's considered very wrong. Suicide rates are higher for men and toxic masculinity is the number 1 killer.