I made a thread earlier that was more or less my long, complex, rambling thoughts on the topics of ->-bleeped-<-, feminism, and sex. While I honestly, truly meant no ill will, and simply sought discourse, I have, after reflection, come to see my words as toxic. If the world was a better place, if trans people were not so wrongly treated by society, perhaps my attempt would have been more welcome. I should have accounted more for that. I didn't. I am here to both say sorry, and update you on my position, as much has changed in a very short span of time, and I think anyone that read the previous thread might like to know.

What is sex? What is male? What is female? I don't think it matters what I think those words mean. After talking it over with my loving, wonderful partner, I now believe the feelings and well-being of trans people like you, matters a lot more. If we can define sex in such a way as to improve your lives and your well-being, we ought to.

I was wrong.

I am sorry.

Quote from: Intronaut on January 18, 2017, 10:47:58 PM
I made a thread earlier that was more or less my long, complex, rambling thoughts on the topics of ->-bleeped-<-, feminism, and sex. While I honestly, truly meant no ill will, and simply sought discourse, I have, after reflection, come to see my words as toxic. If the world was a better place, if trans people were not so wrongly treated by society, perhaps my attempt would have been more welcome. I should have accounted more for that. I didn't. I am here to both say sorry, and update you on my position, as much has changed in a very short span of time, and I think anyone that read the previous thread might like to know.

What is sex? What is male? What is female? I don't think it matters what I think those words mean. After talking it over with my loving, wonderful partner, I now believe the feelings and well-being of trans people like you, matters a lot more. If we can define sex in such a way as to improve your lives and your well-being, we ought to.

I was wrong.

I am sorry.

Everything in life can be a learning process i'm fine with it i can't speak for others but things happen.
I don't completely understand the above but felt the urge to say that.

Quote from: SpeakYourMind on January 18, 2017, 10:56:02 PM
 

Everything in life can be a learning process i'm fine with it i can't speak for others but things happen.
I don't completely understand the above but felt the urge to say that.

Thank you. That's big of you.

Hi Intronaut and Welcome to Susan's,

Yes your first post was hurtful and was removed as it was extremely insulting to transpeople. There is a misconception that we choose to be transgender, I can assure you that we do not. There are a multitude of studies (mainly by the Dutch group) demonstrating that trans women's brains are more similar to cisfemale brains than to cis men or Gay men. Similarily but reversed for transmen.

There are also several hundred natal females who after they have given birth were found to have an XY chromosome.  So basing any argument in regard to sex or gender on chromosomes is very naive.

But an apology goes a long way with me on the Forum. So welcome and please feel free to join in conversation.

Do explore the existing posts and feel free to ask questions.
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Quote from: Cindy on January 18, 2017, 11:08:38 PM
Hi Intronaut and Welcome to Susan's,

Yes your first post was hurtful and was removed as it was extremely insulting to transpeople. There is a misconception that we choose to be transgender, I can assure you that we do not. There are a multitude of studies (mainly by the Dutch group) demonstrating that trans women's brains are more similar to cisfemale brains than to cis men or Gay men. Similarily but reversed for transmen.

There are also several hundred natal females who after they have given birth were found to have an XY chromosome.  So basing any argument in regard to sex or gender on chromosomes is very naive.

But an apology goes a long way with me on the Forum. So welcome and please feel free to join in conversation.

Do explore the existing posts and feel free to ask questions.
Some of the basic questions about your membership and controlling your own page are answered here....
Do read them!

• Site Terms of Service and rules to live by
  
• Standard Terms and Definitions
  
• Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar)
  
• Reputation rules
  
• News posting & quoting guidelines
  
• Photo, avatars, and signature images policy
  

Thank you. You're very kind.

Well darling, it's been a spectacular intro, I'm not sure how you could get more sizzle.

This is the place to take a deeper look, just beware, it may trigger a question or two, and the answers may come as a surprise - we are seekers and searchers looking for our own answers - thanks to the team, we have a lovely atmosphere, and do our best to support each other.

Education has always been heralded as the answer, and what better education than one gained 'first hand' so to speak.

On that note, I'll return to the forest.

Sno

Thank you for your true interest in understanding us all more fully. I think everyone here will welcome your honest questions. Being transgender is really hard for anyone who is not to truly understand as much as it is hard for most of us to understand how a cis people seem to never think about or question their gender. That sort of comfort with your being is foreign to most of us.

Thank you for your apology.

I am an XX female with a medically-induced inter-sex condition that was forced to look and act like a male. I am especially aware of the false correlations people make about chromosomes and gender identity. There are also many, many ways that one's sense of gender can be impacted biologically beyond even their DNA. 

That's why the modern approach is to let the person in question figure their gender out for themselves, just as we had earlier, as a society, come to realize that people could be trusted to figure out their own sexual orientation, as well.

This is why people with gender-variant realities feel so very betrayed when non-straight people attack them and their right for self-determination. It wasn't that long ago that gay/lesbian/bi people were thought of as mentally ill, and the perception is that if anybody should know better than to judge and hate on gender-variant people, it is the LGB...

Besides, if we start policing people based on their genetics, where will that lead? Well, history has some very ugly examples of what happens when somebody with power gets to decide whose DNA is right, and whose is wrong.

Missy

I suggest that much of your earlier "rant" seemed concerned with gender roles?  Many people cisgender, transgender and none of the above have reasonable objections about the tyranny of cultural stereotypes and the policed sanctions of gender roles and appearance.  We can work together on that one.  I share a sense of wanting gender to be less a significant factor in cultural determinations of our worth and value as people.

I don't expect we are easy to understand.  Gender identity is an intrinsic, subjective and deeply personal experience that no objective clinical tests can yet determine.  The experience of being transgender, by any name, has been part of culture for as long as we can know.  We don't choose this and I was one who fought and denied these feelings most of my life.  Beyond telling my truth, as best and as soon as I could, what would possibly motivate me and millions of others to identify with one of the most marginalized and hated minorities known?  Yes, this is not a logical multiple choice essay.  This is the truth of our existence as best we can express ourselves.

Hi, Intronaut!

Thanks for the apology.  I had see the earlier post, and was a bit taken aback by it.  That said, I understand where you are coming from.

I found that different communities of like-minded folks often evolve sets of opinions and philosophies in isolation from others.  That has interesting results, including the 'formation' of consensus opinions within these communities that seem perfectly reasonable within that community, but may appear a bit 'off' or even unreasonable to persons outside of that community.

I call this "siloing", a sort of vertical opinion formation out of contact with a broader spectrum of the population.

I've seen siloing in action in a variety of settings, primarily those oriented around some unifying cause or issue. I've seen it in lesbian groups, in feminist groups, in LGBT groups, in men's circles, in community service groups, and even in politics .

Contact between two groups with opinions formed by siloing can be explosive.  (Oh, and dear Susan's Place folks, I'm afraid this is another silo.  It is a nice, comfortable silo, but the phenomenon applies here as well.  It is pretty much inevitable in any shared interest group moderated to reduce internal conflict.)

Folks just have to remember that when visiting another silo, take some time to get a feel for the language used, the communications patterns, and what that silo considers acceptable or taboo.  For example, I'm giving a presentation tomorrow to a group that is primarily conservative, fairly right-wing, and dominated by older Caucasian males.  I will be avoiding any hot buttons with that crowd, and personal questions will be deflected with a brief "See me afterwards."

The last thing I want to see is a silo explosion...


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As I mentioned in the thread that is now gone, I think the problem is that you're trying to "figure it out."

Being trans isn't something we "figure out" in that sense.  You can't get there through logic or thought or argument.

It's an experience.  In fact, for most of us (I think) we don't even know what is going on at first.  We experience that something is not right with us (though if we've felt that way our whole lives, we may just think that that's what existing feels like), and after a fair amount of trial and error, we find that taking steps towards living as a different gender, or changing our bodies to resemble a different gender, makes us feel more "right."

I mean, how do you figure out that you, say, like jalapeños and don't like mushrooms?  It's not exactly the sort of thing you can logic your way to, is it?  You try stuff, maybe several times, and something you can't exactly describe says "good" when you nibble jalapeños and "bad" when you taste mushrooms or feel them in your mouth.  Or you smell something that just smells good and you find yourself going "I want!"

It's that way for us (well, a lot of us.)  Except that, in contrast to foods, living as a wrong gender can be really painful.  It can eventually make you feel like life isn't worth living any more, and no amount of argument and psychotherapy and drugs makes you feel like it is; the only thing that works is changing your life to get closer to that other gender.  And you realize that your family throwing you out and acting like you died, and losing your job and your home and your friends, and having people you've never met hate you isn't as bad as living the wrong gender.

If you've never felt like this, you won't be able to really understand what it is like for us.

The most you can do is to listen to us.  And believe us.

(Disclaimer: I've been very lucky and none of those bad things have happened to me.  But it does to a lot of us.  And I was afraid it would happen to me, back when I started coming out.)