The comments I have to offer are entirely nonpartisan;  I have disdain for most all politicians.

The Manning commutation needs to be viewed exclusively from the viewpoint of the breach of national security, violation of security clearances and the tangible risk to military and intelligence  personnel in the field as a result of the disclosure of classified material.  This was a traitorous act and must be acknowledged as such whether you agree with or oppose  the disclosure of the information in the documents.   On this basis, he (at the time of trial, not yet come out as TG) was prosecuted within the letter of US law.  Only after conviction did the TG issues become known.   

As a result, Chelsea Manning's TG status should not in anyway play into enthusiasm for or against the commutation of the sentence.  It could be argued that the sentence might have been greater than historically applied to security breaches in the past.  That is a different topic, again independent of her gender and TG status.

I think we risk losing credibility by bringing support for Chelsea Manning's commutation of sentence speaking as collectively as a TG community as if we owe her support simply for the fact of being TG.  I feel strongly that opinions about this event need to be cautious, measured and  independent of gender.

Quote from: Steph Eigen on January 18, 2017, 05:12:45 PM
As a result, Chelsea Manning's TG status should not in anyway play into enthusiasm for or against the commutation of the sentence.  It could be argued that the sentence might have been greater than historically applied to security breaches in the past.  That is a different topic, again independent of her gender and TG status.

I think we risk losing credibility by bringing support for Chelsea Manning's commutation of sentence speaking as collectively as a TG community as if we owe her support simply for the fact of being TG.  I feel strongly that opinions about this event need to be cautious, measured and  independent of gender.

I think that is a valid point.  I do wonder if part of her decision making had to do with internal conflict due to her personal TG struggle.  If so It may only be providing a further reenforcement of the myth that TG people are unstable, or prone to criminal acts.  It's a good a time to dust off those critical thinking skills.

Thanks.  To extend the thought a bit more, we collectively need to avoid acting in the manner of the "single issue voter" phenomenon supporting anything or anyone that is TG.

There are lots of us (TG) here with military service, in my case 24 years under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and subject to recall for life.  Being TS is unpleasant and left unresolved can cause personal issues.    However, given my life experience I cannot in any way imagine how the stress of being TS could ever cause such a grievous act like this.  There are legal avenues a Soldier can take if they have a serious concern about something.  This includes the right to take that concern directly to Congress.  She did not do that and made a criminal lack of judgement in what she did instead.  She is not a hero in any sense of the word.

Whether or not her sentence was extreme is an entirely separate matter.  But she was tried fairly, during time of war, under the UCMJ.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: Deborah on January 18, 2017, 05:46:13 PM

Whether or not her sentence was extreme is an entirely separate matter.  But she was tried fairly, during time of war, under the UCMJ.

Chelsea plead guilty and the Army brass through the book at her. The court prosecutor is not a friend of the defendant. Chelsea did not get a fair trial because her legal counsel was grossly inadequate.

Also, the concerns she raised have never been addressed. The wartime abusive collateral damage continues, giving motivation to radical Muslims for their terrorist actions. And so the violence continues.

Every clown on TV News missed this critical point.

Collateral damage is a fact of war.  This is particularly true when the enemy hides amongst the populace.  If Americans cannot accept that then they should stop being so enthusiastic about going to war in the first place.


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

I thank people for their service here and see the military as a necessity. But when anything like this has to be passed through the filter of "national security and risk to military service and intelligence" red flags go up all over. I do see that sort of thought as very political for a number of reasons.

Our history of the use of our military is far from all positive. The complex of industry, government, military and intelligence that exists to drive activities based on security is also highly questionable at times. Objectivity and truth is likely very hard to arrive at within this area because the system itself is not served by any such scrutiny. The old horses of "national pride and honor" also make appearances in this part of society and those too should be looked at with skepticism.

I'm a citizen, but i'm no patriot, but even with that bias, i understand the need for un-shared intelligence and confidentiality in some parts of public service. However from what i have seen on what she has leaked, there not does not seem to be a lot human damage, but there is a fair amount of political embarrassment, and talk of transparency etc

For these reasons, i would support the President's action whether she was trans or not.

this is just my personal opinion so take for what it's worth. I don't know if her sentence was fair or not all I know is that she had many more options to disclose the material than doing what she did.

I find it interesting that nobody ever talks about the misdeeds that were exposed by the release of these documents.  I also find it interesting how no one compares what Chelsea did to what Bush and Cheney did.  Lying to start a war is the ultimate treason yet they walk free today.   Cheney made a fortune because of the war.

Chelsea didn't profit in anyway from the release of these documents.  She's suffered because she believed rightly that these outrageous actions needed to be exposed. 

And if you're all worried about the people in uniform, think about the number that died and were wounded because of Bush and Cheney.   It's so typical to throw the book at the little guy and let the real criminals free.  Chelsea would never have been in this position if it wasn't for the real war crimes that were committed.

Have a nice day,
Paige

I view her release at least on scale with Scooter Libby. Scooter Libby performed treason by outing an active CIA agent. And he got pardoned.

Mark Twain said "there has never been a just war..."  It has also been said that "the first casualty of war is truth."  The war in Vietnam that i experienced was predicated on the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the list of lies continues to grow.  Skepticism and whistleblowers are needed even more than spies and lies in my book.

And so it goes! Opinions are like belly buttons, everybody has one!

When Chelsea is released, we of all people should accept and support her regardless of her actions.

This is called unconditional love.

Chelsea took an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America. She also swore to abide by the laws of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. She failed to abide by either. Ms. Manning deserved her sentence. Research CWO John A. Walker. He received a life sentence for his actions

That being said, Ms. Manning told the Army that she was trans before she committed espionage. After it was discovered that she was being abused in Ft. Leavenworth, she should have been transferred to a federal women's correctional facility with an option for counseling,  complete HRT, and/or SRS.

The Walker spy case is completely different. John Walker betrayed his country for monetary profit.

Chelsea Manning made a bad decision, which she freely admitted to and has served 6 to 7 years in prison. Her motivation was because other Allied service men were breaking the rules of engagement and therefore the law.  Chelsea received no monetary gain for her actions.

The UCMJ provides that service members do NOT have to follow illegal orders. Her actions should have been handled within channels. We all have a Congressman.

I agree, Tessa and Paige!

Much of the classified material is only protecting those committing atrocities from scrutiny.

Bush and Cheney got off scot free, and the one who pointed it out was jailed. Typical.

Did you read Clinton's emails?
OMG! I'd been hearing other whistle-blowers saying this but reading it was shocking.

You both make great points. It's refreshing  to have healthy debates without insults or name-calling!

Quote from: Dani on January 22, 2017, 05:41:39 PM
The Walker spy case is completely different. John Walker betrayed his country for monetary profit.

Chelsea Manning made a bad decision, which she freely admitted to and has served 6 to 7 years in prison. Her motivation was because other Allied service men were breaking the rules of engagement and therefore the law.  Chelsea received no monetary gain for her actions.

The UCMJ provides that service members do NOT have to follow illegal orders. Her actions should have been handled within channels. We all have a Congressman.

Indeed.  I vividly remember the Walker case, as I was onboard the USS Parche at the time.  He put us very directly in harms way so he could buy a Corvette.  See "Blind Man's Bluff" if you are curious.

Manning made the wrong choices for the right reasons.  She could have found a better path, but what she did was very different than what Walker did.


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