Kylo I don't even know where to begin to address all of your posts in this thread but you're really off base with much of what you're saying. You're completely taking what I said out of context to fit your narrative. At the same time I dont want to continue this discussion on Susans cause this is primarily a support site and it feels like this thread is going off topic. I dont want to argue.

QuoteDo FtM transitioners still feel part of feminism?

Seems very much on topic of discussion to me.

I also have no desire to engage with anybody that presents circular arguments and straw man logic.

What I will say is that there have been Men's Movements that went over pretty well.

I remember the Men's Movement of the 80's very well, and much progress was made in asserting a more balanced view of masculinity in American society. The Mythopoetic Men's Movement went even more deeply into exploring and celebrating masculinity is ways that benefited both men and women, without decaying into 'what about me?' hysteria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythopoetic_men's_movement

I know a lot of men. None of them echo the strident, retaliatory complaints I have seen contributed to this thread.

I am also done contributing and responding to this topic, it does seem that it has run its course, and has spiraled into something far less than the OP intended.

Missy out.

Quote from: MissGendered on January 21, 2017, 04:17:22 PMstrident, retaliatory complaints

Retaliatory? Complaints? Pretty sure I emphasized I wasn't personally complaining. Responding to points made by people, especially them brushing aside your perspective as if it's unimportant and not worth the time of day isn't retaliation or whinging.

Look at all these comments trying to get the thread shut down. I expected better than to see people try to silence me.

This is another reason why I don't think feminism does address men's issues, and therefore why I can't endorse it. I will endorse something that cares for men and women and those identifying in between equally, treats them all as human beings all worth listening to.

To give my post above a bit more clarity vs editing it. I just dont want to get banned honestly. This has nothing to do about silencing you Kylo. Since I started posting here back in 2012 I've made an effort to stay away from subjects that I'm passionate about and or where I have to interject my personal social experiences to prove points and such. I still need Susans and losing this place because my tone was too intense or something would really suck. I've seen members be banned for much less on here before and I understand why that is because this isn't the place for those kinds of heated discussions. I was hoping I'd see this thread be a more of an objective platform to discuss feminism but its not, its getting a bit too personal and the posts about rape/sexual assault have a hit a bit too close to home apart from what you've been posting. So to reiterate I'd rather just leave the thread all together than continue and risk a ban.

I wonder, would someone get banned for a discussion like this here? Looks pretty civil to me, even if we disagreed.

It wouldn't be my call, but I will agree that everyone has been civil with one another despite obvious disagreements. Banning is usually reserved for severe or recurrent TOS violations. I do also agree that some of this is likely not what Tessa intended

LOL!
Kylo does sound like a man!

Like I've said, my male mode is also misogynistic. Luckily, the derris scandens blends my gender modes so I can also see the female point of view, whereas before, I could only see it if I was in "female mode," but couldn't remember it later.

While I am happy to provoke some thinking and thoughtful responses there is also the unintentional ability to create more heat than light.  I am fortunate that most of the trans men I personally know remain feminists and help other people hear from a broad perspective and deeply informed experience.  I don't want to live in a bubble, however, and I do want to continue to learn from well reasoned and respectful dialogue from multiple sources. 

I am learning to be less surprised when some of us who transition carry and support what I feel are sexist stereotypes along the way.  That is also a reminder to me of how diverse transgender people are.

As a college trustee, education is my go to and default response to most problems.  Really changing hearts and minds is a considerably longer term endeavor and this thread reminds me we have a ways to go.  I am sufficiently recharged by the experiences of solidarity yesterday as we marched together in solidarity for women's and humanity's concerns.  Now that was sweet!

I agree Kylo men cant admit their have issues too because they are expected to be all powerful. But truthfully it will be wonderful a society free of shackles of gender roles.

Quoting a post from medium.com here, I can't link it because it contains forbidden words.

QuoteYou are not equal. Your daughters are not equal. You are still systemically oppressed.
Estonia allows parents to take up to three years of leave, fully paid for the first 435 days. United States has no policy requiring maternity leave.

Singapore's women feel safe walking alone at night. American women do not.
New Zealand's women have the smallest gender gap in wages, at 5.6%. United States' pay gap is 20%.

Iceland has the highest number of women CEOs, at 44%. United States is at 4.0%.

The United States ranks at 45 for women's equality. Behind Rwanda, Cuba, Philippines, Jamaica.

But I get it. You don't want to admit it. You don't want to be a victim. You think feminism is a dirty word. You think it's not classy to fight for equality.

'nuff said

Quote from: SadieBlake on January 24, 2017, 07:20:17 AM
Quoting a post from medium.com here, I can't link it because it contains forbidden words.

'nuff said

A lot of people don't feel safe walking around at night alone both men and woman. And I don't see how feminism is going to solve this problem of people not feeling save at night because this issue has more to do with crime and not that woman aren't equal to men.

The wage gap is the average earnings of men and women and it doesn't take into account hours worked or the job. And if some one is being paid less because of their sex they could sue their employee for discrimination.

CEO's should be chosen because of their qualification not sex. There are still a lot of woman who choose family over their job unlike most men who are more focused on their job that's just one reason why there are more male CEO's then female.

Just a few things for some men issues that are mostly ignored or addressed by feminist.
Combat deaths overwhelmingly male
Homicide victims overwhelmingly male
Suicides overwhelmingly male
Winner of custody overwhelmingly female
Men who deal with domestic abuse are mostly made fun of for being beaten by woman and discouraged from reporting it.
And mutilating the genitalia of little boys is also still acceptable while people get very angry when it happens to girls.

If you are really fighting for equality then address issues men and woman face. Don't go that one is the victim and then ignore the other. Thats why people dont like feminism most feminist claim to be for equality but only focus on woman issues.

All of those issues mentioned above should be addressed by equality and feminism in general helps men by leveling the playing field and reducing gap that exists between genders.

Combat deaths - eliminating militaristic "police actions" would help in this a lot. Encouraging women to serve as part of the Defense forces will spread that risk further. Suicide - yep agree 100%, we need better mental health services for all in this country. Custody- Same thing, it should be more equal. I have heard feminists address this.

Domestic abuse - there should be zero tolerance of abuse by either gender and programs available to help all who are abused. I have actually heard anti-feminists claim that " being a mean person" ( they used another term) is abuse. It can be yes, but the vast majority of marital murders and physical abuse is done by men. You have to protect someones physical safety first. Men who are being physically assaulted should have access to the same help. Anyone that discourages them from reporting in law enforcement should lose their job.

Circumcison as an involuntary or religious practice? I agree. We need a lot more education for parents and health care. Men should get to choose when they are able to make that choice.

Feminism has a huge list of items to fight for for women just to get us to a level playing field. Get us to the Equal Rights Amendment. That is not to say that male inequality should be ignored. Equality should never mean less rights for some. It might mean less privilege on a mathematical basis, there is not a lot to be done about that. Women have a bit of unfair privilege as well, as you pointed out.

The scales are still tipped VERY heavily in favor of men. Wages, hiring, heath care, political power, business leadership to name just a few of the big ones. The elimination of misogyny, sexism, and the rape culture goes hand in hand with these.

So you have a feminist here that 100% supports men's rights to equality as well.

Quote from: Sena on January 24, 2017, 08:23:38 AM
A lot of people don't feel safe walking around at night alone both men and woman. And I don't see how feminism is going to solve this problem of people not feeling save at night because this issue has more to do with crime and not that woman aren't equal to men.

The wage gap is the average earnings of men and women and it doesn't take into account hours worked or the job. And if some one is being paid less because of their sex they could sue their employee for discrimination.

CEO's should be chosen because of their qualification not sex. There are still a lot of woman who choose family over their job unlike most men who are more focused on their job that's just one reason why there are more male CEO's then female.

Just a few things for some men issues that are mostly ignored or addressed by feminist.
Combat deaths overwhelmingly male
Homicide victims overwhelmingly male
Suicides overwhelmingly male
Winner of custody overwhelmingly female
Men who deal with domestic abuse are mostly made fun of for being beaten by woman and discouraged from reporting it.
And mutilating the genitalia of little boys is also still acceptable while people get very angry when it happens to girls.

If you are really fighting for equality then address issues men and woman face. Don't go that one is the victim and then ignore the other. Thats why people dont like feminism most feminist claim to be for equality but only focus on woman issues.

Crime today is half what it was in the 80's. It's a dog whistle to rile the masses. The use of lies has become all too common. The problem is the liars have convinced the lied to that they speak the truth. We are finding out more everyday just what liars they are.
The reason there are more Male CEO's than female is because it simply is a boy's club. I have worked for and with some outstanding women. The good thing with most female CEO's is that ego is largely non existent. Meetings are for discussion before coming to a consensus.
Finally just what do you think feminism is? The advocacy of women's rights on the basis of the equality of the sexes.
synonyms:   the women's movement, the feminist movement, women's liberation, female emancipation, women's rights; informal women's lib.
As for combat deaths, lies are more of a danger to men than IED's, Lies led to the death of over 10,000 Americans. Men and women.

Dawn

QuoteAll of those issues mentioned above should be addressed by equality and feminism in general helps men by leveling the playing field and reducing gap that exists between genders.

So you believe mens rights issues are merely a side effect of men's own toxic oppression of women.

Meaning when you hear a list of men's and boys' issues, your solution is to tell men to stop oppressing women.

And then men get asked, why be an MRA? Why not just join Feminism?

When they say no thanks

It must be because they're misogynists. 

I think feminists need to jettison the idea of championing mens rights in any way. Stick to what it's really about: Women's rights. Let men take care of mens rights without obstruction (as opposed to feminists protesting and blockading every meeting and talk), and if there's a conflict - well that's the nature of the beast and it gets argued out based on the best statistics we have.

It's gotten to the point where mens rights issues are only listened to in the mainstream if a woman presents it.

Let's not go after each other, or re-interpret someone's beliefs for them.  That's not really helpful.

I identify as a woman, myself, and believe that all human beings should treat all other human beings with respect.  That makes me what is called an 'intersectional feminist', a feminist who sees the huge overlap of women's rights, trans rights, gay rights, minority rights, the rights of the economically disadvantaged, that is, human rights.

I advocate as a woman, for human rights.  That, at the end of the day, is where it's at.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk