My non-believing parents are going to watch it Friday.  Let's see what Saturday's phone/email conversation is.  Should be interesting.

Some of the recent posts in this thread regarding sexual orientation are alarming to me.  If sexual orientation really is 'conditioned', then why for example doesn't reparative therapy work on gays and lesbians?

I don't believe that sexual orientation is conditioned at all.  I believe it is immutable from birth, much like gender identity.

While I agree that gender is set at birth, bisexuals can add confusion. I worked with a guy who was bisexual and his attraction was more toward other males but for social reasons, he entered a relationship with a woman. I have heard numbers that say a third of the population is bisexual. It's possible as children social pressure might push a bisexual one direction or the other. Will they retain that through out life? Only time will tell. You have to remember that when I transitioned, you didn't start treatment until you were 18 years old. Most of the children who transitioned in their teens or younger may be in their twenties or younger. As they get older, we may discover many are bisexual but hadn't had the time to explore their feelings.

My personal experience with sexuality was that I chose which way to go when I was 16.  Perhaps I'm bisexual; I'm not sure.  Maybe it was just a choice out of self preservation.  But as a teenager I found myself in a situation where one of my male friends was making some aggressive sexual advances and I felt way more aroused than I did when I was making sexual advances towards girls (which was a rather rare occurrence anyway, LOL).   But it was a line I couldn't cross in 1976 because I instinctively felt that once crossed there was no going back. So I shut it down letting it exist in my mind only since then.  It's still there too, as strong as ever.

I'm pretty sure that had some sort of transition been remotely available then and had my own life circumstances been different at the time, I would have gone with it with no hesitation.  I won't write the story of the details right now but my life circumstances at that time felt extremely oppressive and I perceived an overwhelming need to conform - to everything.  Sometimes I think that my strong need to conform then was a great personal weakness. 


It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.
André Gide, Autumn Leaves

Quote from: Mirya on February 07, 2017, 11:56:17 PM
Some of the recent posts in this thread regarding sexual orientation are alarming to me.  If sexual orientation really is 'conditioned', then why for example doesn't reparative therapy work on gays and lesbians?

I don't believe that sexual orientation is conditioned at all.  I believe it is immutable from birth, much like gender identity.

I agree, the only possible alternative I woulds say is that i suppose some peoples sexuality and gender could be more fluid. Still, i do not beleive sexuality is conditioned

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on February 08, 2017, 08:12:12 AM
I agree, the only possible alternative I woulds say is that i suppose some peoples sexuality and gender could be more fluid. Still, i do not beleive sexuality is conditioned

I was the one that started this conversation about sexuality.  I'm certainly interested in all viewpoints, open discussion is why I posed the theory. 

I'm suspecting that the overwhelming percentage of the human species is bisexual but sways in one direction or another naturally (imprinted) while some of that is influenced by upbringing, society and possibly hormone balance.

For instance, this forum has several examples of late stage transitioners who were married to woman, had families, came out as trans, started HRT and now live as straight woman, some have re-married men.  As my bisexual theory goes, I'm suspecting that their original upbringing and society pushes them to be straight men, while transition, HRT and their new expression allowed them to sway the other way.  I'm not sure if "conditioning" is the correct word, but I believe external influences had some impact.

Another example, my wife and I met as teenagers.  Even though my gender identity was in question from an early age, to the outside world we both identified as a straight cis-gender couple.  My wife was originally attracted to men (and my man plumbing), or she wouldn't be with me in the first place.  As the years went on and my true gender was able to be expressed in the home and bedroom, my wife's sexuality has swayed and she now identifies as a lesbian.  Now, she couldn't imagine herself with a man.  As for me, I believe my upbringing has influenced my preference for woman.   Even though I can find attraction to male bodies and their sexual anatomy is of interest, I could NEVER see myself in an emotional relationship with a man....and my curiosity is that if my straight male upbringing, society and expectations have made me think that way...."conditioning" if you will.  For me in particular, it feels like that "conditioning" has permanently imprinted in me and no reverse conditioning would change that. 

Just a theory

To further hijack the thread I suggest you are on to something Staci.  I have been trans and queer all my life with or without the boxy labels.  Being old as dirt I have been immersed in queer culture since the 60s.  Working hot lines and support groups my experience is that many of us are indeed technically bi or pan sexual.  I have known many people who have come out as teens and some who finally get out of the closet as 70 year olds!  We know plenty of people who have been in heterosexual married relationships with children and then come out lesbian or gay.  Over my years here I have been amused by folks who started out as near homophobes (be with guys, oh ick, never!) only to find a deepening interest in them later in transition.  I suggest many people have had furtive relationships that they may never acknowledge or feelings they may never act on.  It is also apparent that many of us have a somewhat political affinity to that gay, lesbian or straight label that may not reveal the whole story.  Goodness, Kinsey and company documented this thru research and bell curve graphs decades ago.  Labels work for soup cans, not so much for people.

Hmmmm... I guess this makes some sense now. Intresting to hear your girls accounts and experiences !

This orientation discussions like this concern me also - I believe the only correct answer can be is that it is immutable from birth AND it is the result of conditioning AND that orientation is a continuum not an absolute. Believing that though i am very wary of those that would try and change people and conversion therapy is truly evil in my opinion. I'm bisexual and have known that most of my life. The concept of only being attracted to one gender is a bit foreign to me, but i totally love and respect that in people. Was i bisexual in the womb? Probably.

Sometimes orientation is situational too. Plop a heterosexual person down in prison for many years and they will often choose love interests of the same gender.

Few things invoke such strong emotion as sexual orientation in people. We often use words like "repulsive" instead of softer phrases like " Not my thing " , perhaps because of biological reasons.

Bisexuals do raise a difficulty in painting sexual orientation as absolute. Non-binary and Genderfluid folks sort of do the same thing for the idea of hard coded gender.

The gender identity and orientation questions are tough.  Frankly, I think both are largely set in the primitive regions of the brain during the initialization phase, from a few weeks past conception to roughly birth.  On top of this is a layer of cultural conditioning, which may or may not conflict with the biological settings.

I know that in my case, the cultural conditioning strongly conflicted with my gender identity, and took many years to break down in a very unpleasant process of denial, dysphoria and depression.

I am starting to suspect that the same thing might be true regarding my orientation.  There is a very strong homophobic cultural conditioning, a product of my upbringing in 1950s American Suburbia.  My underlying biological orientation may very well differ, with the conflict expressed as my tendency towards celibacy and low libido.  My therapist and I will be poking at this a bit to see if there is anything to it.  Hey, I could be bi for all I know, and the filter of cultural conditioning has left me like this.

There is no one single magical answer.  We stand at the intersection of many different parameters, no two of us really alike.