Voice work seems to be one of the things that a lot of girls I know don't seem to bother with. They spend lots of money on clothes, makeup etc etc to fit in but don't spend anything learning how do something approaching a female voice. Therefore there are some who, no matter how convincing they look, are outed the moment they open their mouths. I'm going to start seeing a voice coach, not for anything permanent, just to learn how to change my tone etc so it's a bit less obvious. I know it won't be the same as someone who's fully transitioning but it seems better than sounding obviously like Bob.  Just wondered why some other girls don't seem to go for that type of thing?

Christine

I remembering years ago sitting and planning my transition and I was really concerned about voice.  What good would all the work and surgeries do if when I opened my mouth out came this bass voice.  I got a CD and worked and worked on tryng to replicate just a 3 word phrase.  I spent a lot of time on it.  I'm not saying everyone can achieve what I did but I've been singing in a Women's Chorus now for 4 years. . . . whenever someone looks at me in a bit of a questioning manner, I begin to speak and their look changes immediately . . . I pass. . .I know some have tried and tired and it didn't work for them, but it did for me!

For many years after surgery I was speaking in the male range. The reason was my starting voice was so low it wasn't possible to push it into the feminine range. I didn't realize it until recently and even if I had known earlier, I couldn't have done anything about it. Learning about the problem is what brought me to this site in the first place as you will see in my first posts on the site. The only solutions was voice surgery and it needed the latter VFS in order to do he job. Earlier CTA wouldn't have done it as I already knew how to use the head voice.

Another consideration is that it really required pitch measuring equipment or somebody with a trained ear to evaluate a voice. Again this wasn't available to me for a long time and many don't think of it.

If you transition in place, a feminine voice isn't as important. It's only important if you want to be stealth. For many people that isn't a top priority.

I believe my doctor mentioned the VA here does offer voice training and it is something I am going to look into. I have a low male voice. I've been complimented on it many times. I fear it will be a difficult obstacle to overcome. But first things first... have to get my gender therapist.  That's my next step.

  Hugs,
    Jeanette

Voice is next on my target list and I am going to a speech pathologist once I have the referral. Need to start somewhere.

Liz

There's a program that I found a while back called Deep Stealth that offers programs for all sides of the transformation, including vocal coaching. You can buy the product via dvd or digital download, and it will go over makeup techniques and how to work on your voice range. The vocal courses include a booklet that help detail each exercise of the program. I've heard amazing things about the course and look forward to trying it out myself in time.

I've tried one or two of the YouTube type lessons. A lot of them seem to involve an exercise where you're supposed to start speaking in a high pitch like Mickey Mouse and then lower it. Can't seem to do that.

Christine

They are not explaining the process. To reach the head voice, you  need to tighten the muscles in in the upper neck and it will cause you larynx to move up. This changes the resonance and to some degree tighten the vocal cords resulting in a higher pitch. Place your fingers lightly on your larynx when attempting this and you should feel it move if you are doing this correctly.

The youtube videos are attempting to force this by telling you to speak as high as you can. The problem is without understanding the process you might not do what is needed.

Quote from: Christine_Hart on February 22, 2017, 06:52:19 AM
Voice work seems to be one of the things that a lot of girls I know don't seem to bother with. They spend lots of money on clothes, makeup etc etc to fit in but don't spend anything learning how do something approaching a female voice. Therefore there are some who, no matter how convincing they look, are outed the moment they open their mouths. I'm going to start seeing a voice coach, not for anything permanent, just to learn how to change my tone etc so it's a bit less obvious. I know it won't be the same as someone who's fully transitioning but it seems better than sounding obviously like Bob.  Just wondered why some other girls don't seem to go for that type of thing?

Christine

This is so true. Working on your voice is probably the most important thing you can spend time on next to electrolysis. I trained my self and in 3-4 months my voices started passing pretty well. Later spent a total of $275 for a 6 week advance class with 5 other transgender women with Christie Block who recommended her class after attending a one time group session. It was money well spent. Fine tuning it helped my phone voice and being able to yell and maintain a feminine voice.

Yesterday my wife and I were out to eat at a Jose Tejas (which is always very loud.) The next table over was a very attractive transgender woman who I would have never given a 2nd thought as trans until she opened her mouth. It wasn't that her voice was deep, it was that her resonance was all wrong and her voice sounded like a feminine male voice. (Some might say a feminine gay male voice.) It wouldn't take much for her to tweak it, but I don't think she realizes how much it outs her.

I guess it's easier for some than for others. I have always been a bit of an actor, doing regional and foreign accents and pitches. My natural voice and singing range is from bass to mid-tenor. A couple of the YouTube videos I watched a couple of years ago pointed out how to start at your natural upper range (without forcing it) and practice. Then, after a bit, to go up another notch. If you (at least for me) have gotten used to the upper range, you can then go higher without forcing it.

It also pointed out the timber of the female voice (as well as slight breathiness) required. It talked about the average range (pitch) of the female voice and how it is only a few notes higher than the average range of the male voice. I started noticing the pitch of the lower-voiced cis-women and realized that it was lower than my upper range (without getting into falsetto).

That's when I realized it was doable for me if I practiced and also paid attention to the little things. (It's about vocabulary choice and intonation and tentative languaging in addition to the pitch.) I took their advice and started recording my attempts. It clearly wasn't convincing at first, but I got better over a few weeks (to a few months).

I'm not en femme often enough for it to come out without thinking of it (to start with) but it doesn't take much, now, for me to sharpen back up enough to revert to doing it as second-nature. It helps me to replay Marilyn Monroe in my head briefly to get the feel for it again and then it can start flowing out. I have noticed, however, that my vocabulary has changed to more feminine, even when I am in guy mode. (For instance, I now say "tummy" instead of "stomach" or "belly" or "gut" without thinking about it. And there are lots of other instances, as well. The funny thing is, if guys hear that when I am in guy mode, most of them either don't think anything of it or they think "he's gay", not "he's trans". And most of them are MUCH more accepting of gay than of trans (at least these days).

In essence, a lot of being able to carry it off is not about the pitch, but about a lot of the other aspects of it. Especially since there is so much overlap between the average male range and the average female range.

As I was out walking today (and practicing my upper register voice), I remembered one of the things I had been told. It was to start singing along with (female) pop singers who sing in lower registers. The classical name for that range is contralto. If you sing along with them, it starts limbering up your voice and helping you work up the vocal register. Don't go into falsetto (a la Jersey Boys, the Four Seasons, Frankie Vallie). If you can't quite get there or you are off-key, don't worry about it, just keep trying.

Wikipedia has a list contraltos in non-classical music that you might check.  Pick one or two you enjoy and then go to town with it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_contraltos_in_non-classical_music

One of the ones everyone knows is Judy Garland. There is a reason that most Judy Garland revues are done by drag queens -- not just how she dressing in later life, but also because her vocal register is more readily available. There's also Cher, Adele, Karen Carpenter, Anne Murray, Billie Holiday, Reba McEntire, and the list goes on and on.

As you work your way up the register, you can then add the breathiness (think Marilyn Monroe speaking) and the vocabulary (the word is tummy, not stomach nor gut, etc.). It really only takes a bit of each to get by.

And practice on the telephone. Call up places that don't know you, using your feminine voice (however it is). (Call the drugstore or Target - "Hi. I was wondering if you have ____ in stock? ... You do? That's wonderful! Can you tell me how much it is? ... Thank you so much. Have a wonderful day." If you can get someone to call you "ma'am" or "miss" on the phone without seeing you, you know you are on your way. With that and your visual cues, it's a slam-dunk.

Hugs,
Jackie

Quote from: Sydney_NYC on February 24, 2017, 09:45:48 PM
The next table over was a very attractive transgender woman who I would have never given a 2nd thought as trans until she opened her mouth. It wasn't that her voice was deep, it was that her resonance was all wrong and her voice sounded like a feminine male voice. (Some might say a feminine gay male voice.) It wouldn't take much for her to tweak it, but I don't think she realizes how much it outs her.

Bingo!

Resonance, prosody, intonation, pitch, tone, proprioception, power control,  and inflections.  I started with a Speech Language Pathologist before VFS, and have continued with one afterward.  VFS took care of the pitch.  The rest is up to YOU and if you don't have the skills and knowledge to manage them, you will be clocked.  If being clocked is ok with you, no need to worry.  If it matters to you, work on the ones you can and seek a professional, if possible.  My VFS surgeon (Haben) insisted on speech therapy before and after surgery.  My speech language pathologist has helped my voice change be the most impactful thing I have done for transition.  Above GRS & BA.

Quote from: Jackie S on March 06, 2017, 01:05:12 PM
As I was out walking today (and practicing my upper register voice), I remembered one of the things I had been told. It was to start singing along with (female) pop singers who sing in lower registers. The classical name for that range is contralto. If you sing along with them, it starts limbering up your voice and helping you work up the vocal register. Don't go into falsetto (a la Jersey Boys, the Four Seasons, Frankie Vallie). If you can't quite get there or you are off-key, don't worry about it, just keep trying.
...
Hugs,
Jackie

A very handy tool is the Amazing Slow Downer app (by Roni Music), on Android, iPhone, your PC or Mac. Many musicians use this, often to slow down or speed up a piece of music without changing the pitch. Great to learn a song.

But in this case, you can also use it to change the pitch up or down while not changing the speed.

So you can take a favorite song in any key and adjust it down to where you can match it. Then later go up to a higher pitch.

It costs a few dollars, although there is also a free Lite version. But worth the money for the full one. I use it all the time.

Randy


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I went to a speech therapist this week. Just an initial assessment so not too many exercises but the whole thing felt quite positive. She told me the squeaky Mickey Mouse approach which so many online tutorials seem to go for isn't something that most therapists would recommend. Have started off with a few words and phrases which I have to practice at a certain pitch for 10 minutes each day until the next appointment.

I saw my speech therapist for the first time today and found out my average pitch is just a little below the low normal range for female. I have some exercises to do but the techniques are certainly not about straining in any way. Her focus is as much on speech flow and intonation as a means to have a passing voice. She put pitch as only a small part of the equation. Her idea is that we raise my pitch the 20 points it needs naturally and with strengthening exercises...I am really hopeful for a great out come and it will cost me time but very little financially

Liz

Quote from: ElizabethK on March 11, 2017, 05:56:52 AM
I saw my speech therapist for the first time today and found out my average pitch is just a little below the low normal range for female. I have some exercises to do but the techniques are certainly not about straining in any way. Her focus is as much on speech flow and intonation as a means to have a passing voice. She put pitch as only a small part of the equation. Her idea is that we raise my pitch the 20 points it needs naturally and with strengthening exercises...I am really hopeful for a great out come and it will cost me time but very little financially

Liz

I cannot stress it enough.
Resonance, prosody, intonation, pitch, tone, proprioception, power control,  and inflections.
Mickey Mouse voice is not the female speech method.

Quote from: ainsley on March 11, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
I cannot stress it enough.
Resonance, prosody, intonation, pitch, tone, proprioception, power control,  and inflections.
Mickey Mouse voice is not the female speech method.

I recognise some of those words...I am sure a number of them were on her list of things to work on...she talked about a package of things. She is very much...no straining, ease into it kind of stuff...I feel even more positive to hear you talking the same stuff

Liz

My first speech therapy session this week went very well.  The therapist was surprised at my pitch and reasonable control that I had already.  (Thank you, Dena!). I've been practicing a little.  OK, constantly for 3 months, on everybody.  So, we moved right into intonation and projection.   Wheee!

The lecture voice needs the most work, not surprisingly. Didactic speech tends to have a more authoritative tone, and that is hard to hit while trying to keep intonation in a female style.  I have to really work at not dropping pitch at the end of words, and having better breath control.

It is actually fun to work on this, though.  I very much enjoy spotting all the expressive details in speech and body language, and the amazing differences across gender and culture.

It's fascinating stuff.  Men seem to stop exhaling between many words in a sentence, while women exhale at a steadier rate.  Men dip the pitch of the last syllable in many longer words within each sentence, while women hold the pitch constant, or even raise the pitch at the end of the sentence and some longer words (think Valley Girl).  Women use more of a 'head voice' resonating with the structures in the head and upper throat, while men use a chest voice, resonating with the chest and lower throat.  I could actually feel the shift in where the vibrations came from between the two voices.  There are dozens of these subtle differences, which really surprised me.



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Quote from: ainsley on March 11, 2017, 10:28:24 AM
I cannot stress it enough.
Resonance, prosody, intonation, pitch, tone, proprioception, power control,  and inflections.
Mickey Mouse voice is not the female speech method.

I remember Dr. Haben told me the most important aspect of female voice is "prosody, prosody, prosody. I can give you pitch and you can develop resonance, but prosody is what will ultimately give you a successful result." (He probably told me this because he thought I had bad prosody.)

Sadly, my prosody goes out the window when I talk over the phone sometimes because I try to sound more authoritative over the phone. When I'm not calling to request or demand something, my voice is fine. I seem to be a lot more successful in person.

For those like me without a clue:

Prosody:  the patterns of rhythm and sound used in poetry.

"the translator is not obliged to reproduce the prosody of the original"

the theory or study of prosody.
the patterns of stress and intonation in a language.

Hope this helps.
Randy

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