I finally took some first steps today towards being what I am.
I am giddy and it is all your fault, all of you.

I will post an intro in the other forum but I wanted to post this first while still feeling the rush and fresh in my mind. Bear in mind, I am 35 and have repressed these feelings all my life, I mean I severely held them back in an effort to fit in with men. I am quite shy as well so any change is major to me. Call me a coward if you want, but this is whole thing scares the hell out of me, which angers me, but I am happy to finally understand.

All my life I wanted to have long hair, I was always pushing my luck with the length. Even in the military I was in trouble with it, and in high school ended up with a nickname based on it. Seems like I was never allowed to let it grow much at all like I wanted so once I started growing it out I did not stop. I know long hair is not a big deal, so that is not a stretch by much and is helpful for me now. How long you ask, so long that customers have commented on it... I am going on 7 years worth, it is down to my waist when combed out and while a hassle, I love it.  It was such a gradual thing I did not pay much attention to it and I wear it in ponytail most of the time. It is only in the last year that people have really started to notice it, I find it odd that it took so long.

I spent so much time looking for an explanation about my feelings, then I found this place and went ah ha! Since then I have spent nearly every waking moment reading all I can. One of the links posted had hair tips specifically sideburns. Not sure where it came from though. It more or less described the difference between female and male sideburns. Something I had never really notice before, but shortly after reading this I went out for diner and started looking at the women with longer hair. 

When I got home I went at mine for a more feminine look... Just tweaking the sideburns a little, nothing else and nothing drastic. The difference is really striking, it completely changed my eyes and upper face, not something I expected. 

When I did it, I did not think it would be a big deal, but I was shocked at the change! After admiring the look though, the panic set in. Noticeable to others or not I am aware of it. This was a couple hours ago, but I am still shaking from it. I feel more than a little stupid for feeling so self conscious about it and yet happy that I did it. How this will go over with people is something I do worry about though. For the moment I am glowing and my face even feels different (which I cannot stop touching). I guess I can play it off as a trimming accident, if I have to explain it.


For now I just wanted to say thanks.
The courage some of you have with how far you have pushed things inspires me. I do not think I could do what some of you have done. Ken/Kendra and Laurrie in particular, I envy you (you can laugh if you want). I mean, jeez, I got completely freaked out by a small hair change, probably not even 1/2in changed. I can only hope I will get bolder with it as I go. Even writing this is a bit tough as both sides of me are screaming, the male side says less emotion, the feminine side is screaming MORE! I cannot tell you how many re-writes have taken place.

I just realized I am rambling.
Will someone just please tell me there a light at the end of this tunnel where you can be comfortable. Please.

sorry.
As far as I can see there is no light at the end of an androgyne tunnel in that way. Unless you know exactly where you want to go with it. It's all a bit unexplored territory.

Hello sd,

"As far as I can see there is no light at the end of an androgyne tunnel in that way. Unless you know exactly where you want to go with it. It's all a bit unexplored territory."

Maybe that's true of androgyne tunnels. In my former tunnel there was that light, and it turned out not to be the 5:15 Express coming through at warp-speed. It turned out to be the light of day.

I enjoyed reading your post a lot. It touched me very much. Your wonder and excitement are just really awesome in your post! Thanks for writing it and allowing me to gather that into myself. What a lovely rendition of discovery.

The light in that tunnel is you. If people notice that, then perhaps that is what they have needed to notice. What you have needed to notice. It looked quite lovely from where I sat.

Sometimes I think we forget that the light is us. We become kinda jaded with our own changes, with the acceptance of just ourselves as being the most important changes of all.

Thanks so much for posting those words. They were simply beautiful. The message they carried and the light they bring are valuable and quite a gift to read.

Hugs,

Nichole

We won't call you a coward for being scared. Finding these things out about yourself can often be really scary. You seem to have strove to be something you are not all your life, and then you suddenly feel as if you have woken from a dream and realized that you're something the opposite or entirely different.

I'm sorry I haven't written more but I hope this helps. If support is what you seek there are many here who will welcome you with open arms because a lot of them know exactly how you feel and have been through the same kind of situations. I hope you can find what you need here.

I have to echo Pica's sentiments as well, but that doesn't mean the situation is hopeless just because there may not be a definite "light".

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2008, 05:10:12 AM
sorry.
As far as I can see there is no light at the end of an androgyne tunnel in that way. Unless you know exactly where you want to go with it. It's all a bit unexplored territory.

That's right. There is no androgyne tunnel, but rather you are way north of the Arctic Circle, around Christmas. In other words, sunrise is still a few months away, but there's plenty of room all around, and the sunny summer nights are going to be beautiful. Here's some light  -- please start exploring on your own. If you don't get back by spring we'll send out a search party. 

  Nfr

Well, the good news is, I woke up today happier than I have in almost a decade. 
Early no less.

Reading all those replies I was thinking how sweet, and then the male side kicked in again... 
This will definitely take some getting used to, I am so inclined to take the traditional make route reading this stuff.

Thanks for the support, it does help.

Quote from: Nichole W. on February 04, 2008, 05:54:05 AM
The light in that tunnel is you.

Wow!
That is just , WOW! So simple and yet makes so much sense. The question now is, do I run or walk towards it.


By the way, I looked at my hair again this morning while much more calm. It is not very noticeable unless you look for it, which to me is just about perfect.
I want more!

Hi sd 
Your long hair is sounds wonderfully androgynous!
Head hair grows just as long on men as it does on women and in exactly the same colours. Long lustrous hair is a sign of human health in both men and women. If both sexes have it, it is androgynous.
There is a sexual dimorphism in male pattern baldness however.

What is or isn't a masculine or a feminine hairstyle is purely cultural.
Throughout history, humans have used hair to indicate any number of things: age group, sexual orientation, social status, religious beliefs, military service, political protest, tribal membership, and even as a form of criminal punishment. The story of Samson and Delilah speaks an ancient tale of the power of hair.

How you cut or style your own hair is your choice... it's your hair! What ever you opt for, it's not permanent so relax. A haircut does not have the same commitment as a tattoo or cross-sex hormones.

Androgynes are neither masculine nor feminine. They do not have a male side or a female side.
To an Androgyne, my best advice is... Be yourself, not a gender.

If you are Bi-gendered or Gender Fluid and thus dealing with a mixture masculine and feminine gender identity issues, you might try posting about it in the Transgender Talk support area.

If you identify as a man who simply enjoys looking or feeling feminine, try the Crossdresser Talk support area.

This board, Androgyne Talk, is a support area for those who are gender-neutral, neither masculine nor feminine in their gender identification.

Enjoy your journey of gender self-discovery!
-Emerald 

Quote from: Emerald on February 04, 2008, 01:43:00 PM

Hi sd 
Your long hair is sounds wonderfully androgynous!
Head hair grows just as long on men as it does on women and in exactly the same colours. Long lustrous hair is a sign of human health in both men and women. If both sexes have it, it is androgynous.
There is a sexual dimorphism in male pattern baldness however.

What is or isn't a masculine or a feminine hairstyle is purely cultural.
Throughout history, humans have used hair to indicate any number of things: age group, sexual orientation, social status, religious beliefs, military service, political protest, tribal membership, and even as a form of criminal punishment. The story of Samson and Delilah speaks an ancient tale of the power of hair.

How you cut or style your own hair is your choice... it's your hair! What ever you opt for, it's not permanent so relax. A haircut does not have the same commitment as a tattoo or cross-sex hormones.

Androgynes are neither masculine nor feminine. They do not have a male side or a female side.
To an Androgyne, my best advice is... Be yourself, not a gender.

If you are Bi-gendered or Gender Fluid and thus dealing with a mixture masculine and feminine gender identity issues, you might try posting about it in the Transgender Talk support area.

If you identify as a man who simply enjoys looking or feeling feminine, try the Crossdresser Talk support area.

This board, Androgyne Talk, is a support area for those who are gender-neutral, neither masculine nor feminine in their gender identification.

Enjoy your journey of gender self-discovery!
-Emerald 

Thanks

It is not like the male or female in me exactly, it is more of a matter of having those traits embedded into me by myself and society for so long that it is just how I can best identify the thoughts and feelings for the time being. Sort of like a reaction that has been programmed in by others. A perfect example is men at urinals or sitting in a theater together, they try not to sit or stand next to each other too closely, after a while it becomes instinct even if you do not know why. Men have entire sets of rules regarding this sort of behavior and activities. I start to let me be myself, but then my reaction is to pull back because that was what I was trained by society to do as a man regarding all of this. I have had this pounded into me for a long time and done all I could to fit into that stereotype, that is a lot of programming to undo. Obviously I do not have to follow those "rules" but they have more or less become instinct (almost by necessity to a point), same with describing my emotions about all of this. It is not necessarily a female side or male side, just where it seems they come from due to that programming.

Sort of a forest through the trees type of thing.
Maybe I should say the new me and old me instead, it would probably be much more accurate.

I tried on the other hats you mentioned (along with a ton of others), they were definitely not me.

Quote from: sd on February 04, 2008, 02:39:07 AM
Will someone just please tell me there a light at the end of this tunnel where you can be comfortable. Please.

Hi SD,

Glad that you've found us. I've been at this for years, and haven't yet seen the light at the end of the tunnel. The tunnel has gotten more comfortable though, especially since I ordered new furniture and redesigned the place   

y2g

I reckon all the bigender and gender fluid people are androgynes who express it in a different way.
As for what I said about there being no light - I was wrong, I agree - there is no tunnel. And I don't know about my own shine, but I got glows from all sorts of people all over the place.
It's a long journey to orientate yourself and I'm glad you've found what looks like a beginning.

Hello sd,

It is OK to have reservations when you are making a change in your
appearance. Society judges us first by how we appear and later by
our words and abilities and accomplishments.

The first time I plucked a few eyebrow hairs, wore pale fingernail
polish, or a little makeup and lipgloss I was sure everyone I encountered
would point at me and scream "FREAK".

I was very nervous, and that is what people responded to. Now when
I feel like expressing myself, I just do it, even at home sometimes
when I know it WILL be noticed and remarked upon.

Your friends might comment, but if they are truly friends they will
accept the physical changes in your life. Everyone else really doesn't
matter.

I've never had long hair and always wished I did. I used to imagine
myself with a French braid or hair shoulder length, pulled back and
tied with a simple piece of ribbon.

Explore your fantasies and enjoy your hair. Peace will come with time

Calyx

Quote from: Pica Pica on February 04, 2008, 08:00:14 PM
I reckon all the bigender and gender fluid people are androgynes who express it in a different way.

Very true, Bigender and Gender Fluid people do feel and express their gender.
But 'Androgyne' does not describe a gender expression, Pica Pica.
Androgynes have no gender to express!
Nor is Androgyne an all-inclusive umbrella term for people who are not mono-gendered.

Perhaps this will help....
'Heterosexual' is considered to be the sexual norm.
'Bisexual' and 'asexual' are sexual orientation variations which differ from the norm.
Bisexual = dual sexual (sexual interest toward both sexes)
Asexual = non-sexual (a state of being without, free from, or unaffected by sexuality)

'Cisgender' is considered to be the gender norm.
'Bigender' and 'agender' are gender variations which differ from the norm.
Bigender = dual gendered (gender identity toward both genders)
Agender = non-gendered (a state of being without, free from, or unaffected by gender; aka: Androgyne)

An asexual individual consistently lacks sexual interest with either sex group, men or women.
What does this lack of sexual interest have in common with a sexual interest for men (at times) and for women (at other times)? Nothing, save varying from the heterosexual norm.

An Androgyne individual consistently lacks gender identity with either gender group, men or women.
What does this lack of identification have in common with a self-identification as a man (at times) and as a woman (at other times)? Nothing, save varying from the Cisgender norm.

'Androgyne' is not an umbrella term for any gender variant.
'Androgyne' is a NON-binary gender variant OUTSIDE of the gender binary.
'Bigender' and 'Gender Fluid' are binary gender variants WITHIN the gender binary.

Androgynes are androgynous, neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine in self-perception or behaviour.
Bigenders are dual-gendered, moving between distinctive masculine and feminine self-perceptions and behaviours.

Androgyne is as different from Bigender as male gender is from female gender. More so in fact. If 'gender' ceased to exist, Bigender would not exist either. But Androgyne would! Androgyne IS the absence of gender.

'Gender' is a division, a dichotomy. To be an Androgyne means having the beneficial characteristics and nature of both genders in an undivided state. Within an Androgyne there is no masculinity, no femininity... only humanity. 'Androgyne' is the condition of human wholeness in an individual without the division of gender.

-Emerald 

Quote from: Calyx on February 06, 2008, 12:28:01 AM
Now when I feel like expressing myself, I just do it, even at home sometimes when I know it WILL be noticed and remarked upon.

And in the end far fewer people notice these things than you'd fear. Even fewer go as far as to comment on it.

Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 03:00:55 AM

Bigender = dual gendered (gender identity toward both genders)
Agender = non-gendered (a state of being without, free from, or unaffected by gender; aka: Androgyne)

Still, this is only one way to divide the gender spectrum, as we've discussed a few times earlier. Just as a clarification to your list, from what I've seen bigender is usually understood to refer to a person with a distinct male and female identity. That said, I would also add to your list intergender, or someone who feels e has a gender, but one somewhere between the two extremes. Further, androgyne  seems a reasonable umbrella identity for at least agender and intergender, and I'd also put bigender under it.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on February 06, 2008, 04:55:02 AM

Still, this is only one way to divide the gender spectrum, as we've discussed a few times earlier. Just as a clarification to your list, from what I've seen bigender is usually understood to refer to a person with a distinct male and female identity. That said, I would also add to your list intergender, or someone who feels e has a gender, but one somewhere between the two extremes. Further, androgyne  seems a reasonable umbrella identity for at least agender and intergender, and I'd also put bigender under it.

  Nfr

Seshatneferw-
Please tread carefully here... 
Androgyne is not an umbrella term. Transgender is an umbrella term.
Under the administrative threat of having the "Androgyne Talk" forum closed again, 'Androgyne' is a term which refers to people who are androgynous, being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior, and no further debate on the definition of 'Androgyne' as will be entertained. Null-gender is covered by Androgyne... Bigender is covered by Transgender... and Intergender is covered by the Genderqueer title, thus says the Web Administrator. For what it is worth, I find agreement in the logic of these groupings which are designed to aid in support on this Transgender Support website.

I'm sure you remember the thread:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?&topic=22474

"I am tired of constant attempts to redefine Androgyne as transgender lite or transsexual lite."
"They key is that androgyne is neither masculine nor feminine which doesn't apply to many other segements of the communities serviced by this web site."
"The issue is that people have been trying to fit non-androgyne groups into the androgyne definition by using it as an umbrella term which it is not. The Androgyne forums is for the androgynous."
  -Susan

If you are able to organize 10 qualifying members with 100 posts who identify as Bigender or Gender Fluid or Genderqueer or Intergender and request a support board in that name, I'm confident the Web Administrator will see fit to do so. A new a forum for people those who are a unique combination of masculine and feminine gender would be of immense benefit to all concerned!

Intergender...
There is only one member I recall who identified as Intergender and he/she has long since changed their gender ID and now identifies as Crossdressing Male-to-Intersex. One of a kind I think. There are number of members which specifically identity as Gender Fluid and Bigender. I believe there are enough people to form a quorum providing they can agree on a name for their gender group identification.

-Emerald 

Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 10:24:53 AM

Androgyne is not an umbrella term. Transgender is an umbrella term.

Sigh. Yes, true, transgender covers us all. I still think that androgyne covers a range of the gender spectrum, rather in the middle, and that it can be sub-divided if necessary. It's pretty much similar to how female covers a range towards one end of the spectrum, and how it is possible to see distinct sub-divisions of that range, like femme.

Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 10:24:53 AM

Under the administrative threat of having the "Androgyne Talk" forum closed again, 'Androgyne' is a term which refers to people who are androgynous, being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior, and no further debate on the definition of 'Androgyne' as will be entertained.

I do in fact agree with this definition, and it was not my intent to argue against it. If I gave the wrong impression, I'm sorry.

Still, I do believe that a person who is 'neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine' can have personality traits that are normally considered male or female; it is not necessary to drop all those to qualify. This is what I tried to say.

I didn't intend to muddy the waters. Rather, my overall goal has been to understand myself, and try to see that as a part of a bigger picture. For the past half year or so, I've been under the impression that androgyne best fits my identity, even if I cannot consider myself agendered. This forum has been a great help to me.

To the powers that be: if I've crossed a line, it is because I honestly still don't know where exactly it is. In any case, please do not punish the entire community, but if necessary ban me instead of closing the forum.

  Nfr

Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 10:24:53 AM
Seshatneferw-
Please tread carefully here... 
Androgyne is not an umbrella term. Transgender is an umbrella term.
Under the administrative threat of having the "Androgyne Talk" forum closed again, 'Androgyne' is a term which refers to people who are androgynous, being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior, and no further debate on the definition of 'Androgyne' as will be entertained.

I think you are wrong Emerald - but I can't debate this as we seem to have lost that freedom on this site. Certainly as prescribed by this forum it has such a set definition, I'm not debating that, but this does not mean people in the real world use this definition.

Anyway, shouldn't we just use the word androgynous to describe people who are androgynous? Woudn't that be far more useful and accurate (and smarter) term for what is described here? i.e. androgynous forums are for people who are androgynous in "being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior,". Call it what it is people.

Quote from: Emerald on February 06, 2008, 10:24:53 AM
'Androgyne' is a term which refers to people who are androgynous, being neither distinguishably masculine nor feminine, as in dress, appearance, or behavior

Is this level of androgeny an ideal or is it required for membership? Must androgynes born with male bodies have their facial hair removed and undergo feminizing surgery in order to thwart their masculine appearance? Something I read on this site indicated that when men use a restroom they do their business and leave, engaging in little conversation, while women will have long conversations with perfect strangers. What do androgynes do and which room do they do it in?

Reminds me of the colleague who told me this morning that if two men leave a urinal between them and a newcomer uses it, the newcomer must be gay. I'd always thought maybe he couldn't wait any longer.

Simone

Ive just been reading another thread that had gone off topic to definitions of androgyne, something that i dont want to discuss, but im confused. when i found this forum it was like a ureka moment in my life, and i really identifyed with other peoples experiances and feeling that were just like mine. i now keep reading that im not androgynous as i feel like both male and female, which i thought was androgynous so i used that lable for myself, it dont bother me, its a word at the end of the day. i find it sad that people choose to use a word so narrowly a word is what ever you want it to be.

also something i wondered was did 10 qualifying members with 100 posts set this bit up with that definition as nearly all the people that i have read about on here dont fit that discription. i feel very frustrated about all this and sad that such a good place and one of the only ones could end up like this. though i suppose its enevitable when placing a definition on a in a group of people who by nature are non conformist :0)

oh well 

I did not mean to set off a debate, sorry about that. Especially not one that is apparently so hotly contested here, I see nothing wrong with healthy discussion. But, being a forum owner/admin myself, I know how things can get out of hand in a hurry. Please, don't anyone go getting banned or anything on account of me, some of you have a lot invested here.



As for the hair, I discovered the effect only works if I am clean shaven, once the sideburn stubble shows the effect is completely ruined. Which is a bummer since I grow a beard fast. It does reduce the masculinity in my face which is nice, I really like the way it looks. Too bad I am lazy and hate shaving every day.

I can't PM you back Ken/Kendra, but thank you.

have you thought about laser on your beard area the effect of that is quite amazing and the other plus side is you dont need to shave anymore well not as much anyway