Is it this easy for some people to spot trans woman given most in his test were shown in glamour shots with good lighting, makeup, hair, shoulders pulled back.

Even popular transgirls like princess joules, Gigi gorgeous, Nikita dragon, Ava Sabrina, yasmine petty(to name a few) aren't 100% clock proof despite being attractive and almost looking female.

I would like to live in total stealth hopefully after SRS, but now starting to think if this is a realistic goal?

I have heard some girls here about living in complete stealth for years including not telling their long term partners, makes me wonder if it's even possible in current times.

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This discussion can occur without the use of that video.

In my opinion, unless you are 5'4 and under, with a feminine frame to begin with, and started hormones before puberty... you'll be clock by at least 1 person (if not cisgender, then by transgender people) after transitioning. It's not just the jaw, the hairline, the makeup, and all that... there's something else, I can't describe it.

I wouldn't stress about it. It's something that's inevitable. The most passable transgender I noticed, don't try to be beautiful but rather frumpy. Frumpy makes you look normal/average, and so I think if you want to avoid being clock, just don't care about your looks as Gigi Gorgeous.

QuoteI would like to live in total stealth hopefully after SRS, but now starting to think if this is a realistic goal?

One thing, don't dress to bring attention to yourself.  I've seen some cross dressers wear something that's totally inappropriate and they stick out like a sore thumb.  Back when I was info full cross dressing, I'd try for the "plain Jane" look, as it was easiest to achieve and not cause me to stand out.

Quote from: Wild Flower on March 24, 2017, 06:01:02 AM
In my opinion, unless you are 5'4 and under, with a feminine frame to begin with, and started hormones before puberty... you'll be clock by at least 1 person (if not cisgender, then by transgender people) after transitioning. It's not just the jaw, the hairline, the makeup, and all that... there's something else, I can't describe it.

I wouldn't stress about it. It's something that's inevitable. The most passable transgender I noticed, don't try to be beautiful but rather frumpy. Frumpy makes you look normal/average, and so I think if you want to avoid being clock, just don't care about your looks as Gigi Gorgeous.

True to an extent, but you can dress casual/chic and still pass and not mistaken for a cross-dresser. Also, you can be fully passable and also beautiful facially. I agree that if you don't want to bring attention to yourself, dress down. Most ts who are able to live stealthy lives do not come out like Gigi Gorgeous did. Gigi Gorgeous is beautiful but she was not completely passable before FFS. Therefore, she might value it differently. She likes the fame she gets by the T flag.

Quote from: Wild Flower on March 24, 2017, 06:01:02 AM
In my opinion, unless you are 5'4 and under, with a feminine frame to begin with, and started hormones before puberty... you'll be clock by at least 1 person (if not cisgender, then by transgender people) after transitioning. It's not just the jaw, the hairline, the makeup, and all that... there's something else, I can't describe it.

I wouldn't stress about it. It's something that's inevitable. The most passable transgender I noticed, don't try to be beautiful but rather frumpy. Frumpy makes you look normal/average, and so I think if you want to avoid being clock, just don't care about your looks as Gigi Gorgeous.

I agree to some extent in that most that I find have stealth potential are girls that start early on (have the right genetics) and often have the plain Jane look. But the girls I was mentioning about started a bit late in their twenties after male puberty.

Also if one has truly achieved stealth, it shouldn't be that easily weakened by their attire,makeup,hair choices. And if it can be then it's not true / complete stealth. Like no one would ever question Pamela Anderson, Courtney stodden or Anna Nicole smith for being a transsexual.

But yes I am starting to think that stealth and being very attractive/hot/beautiful  doesn't go hand in hand for the vast majority of trans girls.

Wonder if people like Caroline Cossey would have been able to maintain stealth for that long in today's times ?

My take on it is I thought stealth was making sure no one knows by doing things that you may think will stop people from knowing. Like changing all docs, not posting here or anywhere else about being trans, not posting any before shots, burning your entire pre-transition life, etc. Even if you did all of this, you can't stop people from clocking you 100%. And that's because even some cis-women are clockable lol I see some cis women and know some that look way more masculine then me or other trans-girls I know or have seen( youtube, pics, etc). So I guess they've been "clocked". I remember watching this youtube video and was like hey she's one of us... Nope, she was cis but had a very strong jaw and square chin. I researched her because I was so confused lol Found prego shots of her and all that stuff. Sooooo unless she went through the hassle of going into a hospital got one of those fake baby stomachs and did the best makeup ever to conceal where the silicon or latex would meet the skin, that was proof enough for me. Made me feel better about myself too, like "huh, I guess even cis-girls could look sort of masculine but still be beautiful and make people think". So yes i do think that you can live stealth still, but do not get upset or put down by the fact that at a few people will clock you eventually. And remember, cis-women get clocked too

It isn't a matter of living "stealth" so much as being absolutely clear what it is we want.  What we need.  For me, I needed to be gendered properly. 

So what does that take?  We're all pretty familiar with changes to embodiment -- face, voice, secondary sex characteristics -- for after all, gender is initially assigned automatically, subconsciously, by everyone we meet, based on initial embodiment.  But what about in longer-term relationships?  Friendships, colleagues, lovers, and so on...

Unfortunately, the narrative of having switched from one gender to another generally doesn't facilitate the gendering we desire.  So when we're talking about "stealth" what's really at issue here is an issue of narrative, of the stories we tell about ourselves, and the stories that other people tell about us.  So there are stories we don't tell.  And we live in a way that doesn't raise unpleasant stories in other peoples' heads -- we learn how to be properly socialized within our gender.  And that's really all it takes.  It's not actually rocket science. 

Looking at this from a societal standpoint, I would rather have better trans-awareness than have to live stealth.  I am so very greatful to ever trans person who has paved the road that I walk today.  Those that had to live stealth, who proved it could be done.  And those who lived openly, facing the challenges of society to make the world a better place.  I do not live stealth, but I also am not that public about discussing my past.  Those who know, do not make it an issue and I have not ever felt that I am unwelcomed in my neighborhood.  Do I live stealth? Well kind of (despite the rainbow flag that flies in front of my house). However, I am never afraid to tell my story to those that it can help, to those who can learn from my experience, and to those who I can educate.

I value privacy so greatly, but I value societal acceptance more.  To live in a society where it doen't matter if you are a cis-woman, a trans-guy, or a non-binary individual would be amazing.  In a world where pepole are free to live as who they are and explore who they can be without judgement or fear of ridicule would be incredible.  But we do not live in that world, and just reading about how many trans-women are murdered each year breaks my heart.  This is why many of us long to live stealth, so that we do not stand out, so that we disappear into society.  Every death of a trans-person reinforces my belief that we need trans awareness more everyday.  We need to let people know that we are here, we are valued members of society, and our lives matter.  If increasing trans awareness deminishes the ability of people to live stealth, but it also reduces the number of trans-pwople murdered, I will take that trade-off.

Equal rights, acceptance, and freedom are worth fighting for and ultimately it should not matter if you are transgendered or cis.  You are human, beautiful, and you matter...

I've actually found that being an average-looking middle-aged woman who dresses in the same bland clothes as the other women her age is like a magic spell when it comes to not being noticed. It's not just that I'm not identified as trans; I'm not even *noticed,* because our society mostly overlooks women who aren't young and pretty. And the less people look at me, the less likely they are to think anything at all about me...

(There was a rumor at my current job that one of the newer hires was trans, probably because the outgoing director was both disgruntled and tight with HR.  I overheard several people talking about it, and opinions were divided between the new director, who is tall and strong-featured, and the new IT guy, who's kinda small and slightly built. The rumor died out quickly, thank goodness, but nobody gave me a second thought.)

Quote from: Jenna Marie on March 24, 2017, 11:05:44 AM
I've actually found that being an average-looking middle-aged woman who dresses in the same bland clothes as the other women her age is like a magic spell when it comes to not being noticed. It's not just that I'm not identified as trans; I'm not even *noticed,* because our society mostly overlooks women who aren't young and pretty. And the less people look at me, the less likely they are to think anything at all about me...

Absolutely!  Being older, in any sort of reasonable shape, and just dressing to fit in does wonders for passing in public.

Nobody seems to tray and call out an older person in public.  Very few people seem to even notice us.  Oh, I occasionally get checked out by older men on the street, but I don't see any sign of being clocked.  The older guys don't seem interested in my face.     It may help that my waist/hip ratio is better than about 90% of US women in the 60-70 year old range, and weight is in the bottom percentile.  It just amazes me how quickly people make a judgement on the visible markers a person presents.

I try to get the posture right, and always have parted lips and a bit of a smile when in public.  When passing other women who happen to look at me, I smile a little more, nod my head, and say "Good morning" or similar as we pass.  I usually get a smile in return.

If I want to be totally invisible, I have a wig that is a mix of silver-gray and dark hairs, a bit curly and with bangs that cover the forehead.  Nobody notices me when I wear that.  Eye contact is minimal, and I feel like the Invisible Woman.  It's another instant judgement people make; Gray means old and uninteresting, so ignore them.

I'd love to know how much of this instant judgement stuff is hardwired into the brain, and how much is social conditioning incorporated so deeply that these snap judgements are possible.  I do know that the more gender identifying cues I get right the easier passing on the street becomes.  It's annoying, and a lot of work, but I feel it makes me safer these days.

I think stealth is achievable for some. We as humans have mental models of everything around us. These models are basically the generic stereotype that our brains create so there is minimal mental effort in processing our surroundings and world. They work like heuristics- mental shortcuts. Every building we come across we instantly categorize, schools, stores, office, church, house, etc. if you think of "dog" a generic mental image is bound to pop up in your mind. We of course have these models for genders  as well. Every person we encounter has the brain trying to automatically categorize each individual as quickly and effortlessly as possible. If something doesn't quite fit into the model we either look for more information to categorize correctly OR our brain simply ignores the information through selective attention.

I think there is also mental models coming into the norm of society of what a transwoman is. We all hold one which makes our internal clocking that much stronger.

I think we need to be aware that these trans mental models are becoming more common in the general public and to the best of our ability try to draw attention from any of these.

This is different than trying to fit the model for a cis female or male as well.

An example would be:

The person in front of you is tall say 5'11". A "V" type body frame. Okay that's male (from behind). But their hair is shoulder length and obviously styled. female.

Out brain at this point has a mismatch and is trying to decide where to put this person. Maybe into the third, trans category. We need more information.we look at their outfit. Hmm jeans and a tshirt. Not helpful. Shoes? Boots, but we can't see the front yet. Still not too helpful. They aren't carrying a purse, but we do notice their wallet. Red leather with gold button- low profile.

Okay they are turning around. Hmm okay this person is in their 50s, sagging skin around the neck. Adam's apple or just skin? Chest. Ah, there's a bulge. So breasts? Hmm what does the rest of their body look like? Well they are heavy set but muscular. Could that just be muscle and or fat?
They then say a few words to the cashier a little high pitches but still gravely. Okay toss up. What does the brain do, its lazy and you suspect they might be trans, but not sure. The person in front grabs there bag of goods, but there's a tear. Out falls some cough drops, a pack of cigarettes, and NyQuil. They go to pick up the items, look at you, sigh, and murmur "why the heck do people go to work sick... I have to give this sales pitch later today and what client is gonna want to listen to this voice for 30 minutes?"

---------

So, is this person male, female, or trans?

I think most would say female... with a cold.


My point is out brains are lazy, and we can use that to our advantage. If there is enough evidence for one category, all the outlier clues are either justified or completely ignored. We don't see the world objectively, as it actually is, we see it "good enough" to get through the day.

How well did you do on this attention test?

Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 07:32:40 AM
I agree to some extent in that most that I find have stealth potential are girls that start early on (have the right genetics) and often have the plain Jane look. But the girls I was mentioning about started a bit late in their twenties after male puberty.

Also if one has truly achieved stealth, it shouldn't be that easily weakened by their attire,makeup,hair choices. And if it can be then it's not true / complete stealth. Like no one would ever question Pamela Anderson, Courtney stodden or Anna Nicole smith for being a transsexual.

But yes I am starting to think that stealth and being very attractive/hot/beautiful  doesn't go hand in hand for the vast majority of trans girls.

Wonder if people like Caroline Cossey would have been able to maintain stealth for that long in today's times ?

I had to look up Courtney Stodden, I wouldn't question, but if you told me she was I would believe it. If you told me Lindsay Lohan was... I wouldn't believe it. Pamela Anderson, hands down couldn't pass as transgender.

Kate Winslet could pass as a transgender woman. Cher and Jessica Parker too.

We are hyper critical of each other. Most of the cis world could care less and doesn't even notice us. If you're very young and have masculine features, it's harder, particularly if you're in a room full of young women. But for us old broads? no one really even cares. If we don't dress like Bim's and are put together fairly well, we're good to go.
      One of the most annoying things I see on this site is the overwhelming obsession with some of the most inane things. In many cases it actually makes us look like a bunch of self involved and narcissistic children. I'm probably  gonna get flamed, but that's how I feel about the subject.

Quote from: Iliana.Found on March 24, 2017, 08:11:01 AM
And that's because even some cis-women are clockable lol I see some cis women and know some that look way more masculine then me or other trans-girls I know or have seen( youtube, pics, etc). So I guess they've been "clocked". I remember watching this youtube video and was like hey she's one of us... Nope, she was cis but had a very strong jaw and square chin. And remember, cis-women get clocked too

Iliana,

I have heard about cis women getting clocked but I have a hard time believing it given I have an extremely strong transdar(which I hate about myself). I think women with so many masculine features that one would question their gender is extremely rare(probably 0.1 %). Also for that small precentage, generally they would only be mistaken for being trans in static pics. In real life despite of their masculinity, you would instantly know they are female once you talk to them.

For me in real life, it only happened once on my Amtrak trip from Denver to San Francisco. During lunch on the train, we shared table with a very butch firefighter/body builder lesbian women(from tenderloin district in SF). Heavy browridge, muscular body, strong jaw line, but the moment she started talking we knew she wasnt trans. There was something  very distinctly female about her despite her masculine physical looks.

Like I would never ever even think someone like Lisa Leslie would be trans(despite having trans qualities) but could figure out Alexia Cresani(though this was a tough one, initially just based on my gut feeling) was trans from on her instagram pics without knowing 1)anything about her history and 2) that she edited all hers pics). Once I saw her in video, I had no doubts.

Sophia,

Well my number 1 objective From stealth is no body ever knowing/questioning at my future job( based on my physical looks, voice and behavior).

Quote from: Sophia Sage on March 24, 2017, 08:48:27 AM
We're all pretty familiar with changes to embodiment -- face, voice, secondary sex characteristics -- for after all, gender is initially assigned automatically, subconsciously, by everyone we meet, based on initial embodiment.  But what about in longer-term relationships?  Friendships, colleagues, lovers, and so on...

Unfortunately, the narrative of having switched from one gender to another generally doesn't facilitate the gendering we desire. 

I got a little confused here, where you able to achieve that in long term relationships? Or that was not your objective?

Quote from: jentay1367 on March 24, 2017, 04:06:07 PM
      One of the most annoying things I see on this site is the overwhelming obsession with some of the most inane things. In many cases it actually makes us look like a bunch of self involved and narcissistic children. I'm probably  gonna get flamed, but that's how I feel about the subject.

No flames. Promise. I do agree with the point if inane things. I can understand it though. All of a sudden I think we all feel like we are in the spotlight, and a not so friendly spotlight with that. I know I'm much more aware of my surroundings and how I present. Blame it on social and political climate or just the awareness the past year has brought that there is a significant portion of the population that do still have issues with the trans community. I feel like, yes this is still the same world, but I think I tricked myself into believing society was past all the bias, hate, and fear. While nothing has really changed, I am now hyper aware.

Quote from: Inarasarah on March 24, 2017, 10:37:37 AM
Looking at this from a societal standpoint, I would rather have better trans-awareness than have to live stealth.  I am so very greatful to ever trans person who has paved the road that I walk today.  Those that had to live stealth, who proved it could be done.  And those who lived openly, facing the challenges of society to make the world a better place.  I do not live stealth, but I also am not that public about discussing my past.  Those who know, do not make it an issue and I have not ever felt that I am unwelcomed in my neighborhood.  Do I live stealth? Well kind of (despite the rainbow flag that flies in front of my house). However, I am never afraid to tell my story to those that it can help, to those who can learn from my experience, and to those who I can educate.

I value privacy so greatly, but I value societal acceptance more.  To live in a society where it doen't matter if you are a cis-woman, a trans-guy, or a non-binary individual would be amazing.  In a world where pepole are free to live as who they are and explore who they can be without judgement or fear of ridicule would be incredible.  But we do not live in that world, and just reading about how many trans-women are murdered each year breaks my heart.  This is why many of us long to live stealth, so that we do not stand out, so that we disappear into society.  Every death of a trans-person reinforces my belief that we need trans awareness more everyday.  We need to let people know that we are here, we are valued members of society, and our lives matter.  If increasing trans awareness deminishes the ability of people to live stealth, but it also reduces the number of trans-pwople murdered, I will take that trade-off.

Equal rights, acceptance, and freedom are worth fighting for and ultimately it should not matter if you are transgendered or cis.  You are human, beautiful, and you matter...

Sarah,

I agree/respect everything you said and am glad about trans awareness is becoming the highlighted issues. Also if one has true potential of stealth and wants that, trans awareness doesn't really hinder them at all.

Jenna and Michelle,

I agree a bit older definitely helps.

Quote from: jentay1367 on March 24, 2017, 04:06:07 PM
We are hyper critical of each other. Most of the cis world could care less and doesn't even notice us. If you're very young and have masculine features, it's harder, particularly if you're in a room full of young women. But for us old broads? no one really even cares. If we don't dress like Bim's and are put together fairly well, we're good to go.
      One of the most annoying things I see on this site is the overwhelming obsession with some of the most inane things. In many cases it actually makes us look like a bunch of self involved and narcissistic children. I'm probably  gonna get flamed, but that's how I feel about the subject.

I respectfully disagree with you. Cis people do care and notice unless you are invisible to , worthless of their attention and not posing any threat on any level to their egos.

Also just curious what you find inane, is it the desire to living stealth or the impact of trans awareness on ones stealth potential or both?

As far as being the narcissistic, self involved thing goes, I think it's more of a generation thing than a trans or Susan's thing.

Quote from: Brooke on March 24, 2017, 05:02:42 PM
No flames. Promise. I do agree with the point if inane things. I can understand it though. All of a sudden I think we all feel like we are in the spotlight, and a not so friendly spotlight with that. I know I'm much more aware of my surroundings and how I present. Blame it on social and political climate or just the awareness the past year has brought that there is a significant portion of the population that do still have issues with the trans community. I feel like, yes this is still the same world, but I think I tricked myself into believing society was past all the bias, hate, and fear. While nothing has really changed, I am now hyper aware.

I agree about the bias, hate and fear aspect despite of all the awareness. I guess that depends on where we live too.