I am asking this question because I am trying to find if I am non-binary,  or am I actual mtf trans gender.  (Here it goes)...........
Here is my story......
Back in Sept 2016 I decided to transition,  and started my transition. At the time I was still new to the trans gender world.   I'm still new to it but I'm willing to learn more.   At the time I knew I wanted to be a women and actually look like a women FFS,  Hormones, and possible SRS,  hair removal etc.   I already did my tracheal shave and I wanted to do more surgery.  If money was no issue and people weren't so judgement and if government paper work took shorter time to process,  I want to be a female this instant.
At the time I thought I was non binary gender fluid.  Because I wanted to keep my male self so people wouldn't judge me.  I wanted a androgynous appearance.   After I did some soul searching I may not be Gender Fluid.  The reason I say that is because I want to go fulltime female.   I don't want to be male,  Im male is because its how people sees me,  but its not truly how I feel.  So all this time have I been lying to myself and others so other people will be happier...
So my question is.......
.Has anyone ever experienced the same feeling as I am right now?  Do you feel you are actually the opposite gender,  but only say non binary to please other people so you don't risk your job or family?
I know everyone's story is different,  im just curious if anyone is experiencing what I am experiencing.

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I'm young (18) and non binary has only become a thing to me in the past year or so. I'm beginning to understand it and it strikes me> as: this is the identity for some butch women who felt out of place in either bathroom and never felt comfortable claiming either male or female and for feminine men who were very in touch with their female side and struggled with the unacceptability of men cross-dressing in public without completely renouncing any semblance of maleness (of course for some of these people that's just an issue of feeling censored in expression, but some feel completely out of the binary because they simply cannot shed this gender confusion deep inside). I mainly understand it when it comes from the mouth of a calm old butch rather than a young person tbh, then I feel slightly connected to it.

Moderator Edit: We encourage all to learn about all the different stops along the gender spectrum. I think you may get some posts with different opinions. As long as we all realize which are our opinions versus provable or accepted fact.

I also removed a quoted post that the member had removed

Hi Mikka, I agree that only you can answer that question. For me, I know that nothing is black and white. In the ideal world, I would act and dress like a woman. But my life is complicated by having a wife that didnt do well with me wearing panties every day. I would probably lose all my friends. Are all these relationships important to me? Yes. Would I be in a depression if I was all alone? Yes. Would I have trouble and have anxiety with society judging me? Yes. So I have to chose. I would love to put on lace panties everyday, but when it comes down to it, they are just clothes that society has taught us are feminine. It is a complicated issue. I also think there is too much emphasis on labels. Whether I call myself nonbinary, gender fluid or gender queer doesn't change the way I feel about myself. Hope that helps

Hi Mikka,

I imagine that each of us does some sort of calculus in our heads as we investigate/explore the gender landscape, "trying on" various labels to find one that fits best.  Those labels change over time, as do our perceptions of consequences, which also may change, whether those perceptions are accurate or not.  So I imagine that many of us, transplanted into a different time and place, might make different choices. 

Is your choice right or wrong?  Good heavens, how many opinions can you count?  There is only one opinion that really matters, and that is yours.  When I went through this assessment myself, it never occurred to me that "non-binary" or "gender-fluid" would be a "safer" choice.  But as some of my peers have stated, I didn't grow up with "non-binary" in my vocabulary, so I'm certain I don't see it in the same way that many of the young people today do. 

It's also good to keep in mind that we have adopted a specific language to describe where we reside along continua in several dimensions.  That is, how you feel might sit inside the limits of what you consider "non-binary" while might not in someone else's gender map.  It's good to question, but remember that it's your opinion that counts and you're not wrong just because someone may disagree with you.  Until we perfect methods of seeing what's in your mind (god help us), we have to rely upon your report.  Best wishes in your decision process and in your transition. 

Erin

As an older, transitioning, transgender woman, I also am quite confused about the non-binary paradigm.  It's disturbing in it's newness as well as there is a sense that it it so broadly defined that it can encompass just about anyone and everybody.  Maybe it's because I spent so many years living in hiding from an openly hostile, transphobic culture and always secretly wishing to be a woman.  I guess I relate it to the eastern taoist concept of the yin and yang symbol. According to this ancient idea/symbol everyone has both male and female elements within them and the two are entwined around each other in an endless circle and inseparable.  Also, buddhism teaches us about the nonduality nature of existence, i.e. all buddhas of the past, present and future awaking to the reality of the perfection of wisdom get that "form is emptiness, and the very emptiness is form; emptiness does not differ from form, nor does form differ from emptiness; whatever is form, that is emptiness; whatever is emptiness, that is form.  The same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses and consciousness."

Also, I know a post op women who identifies as non-binary, as well as pre op men and women who identify as binary and pretty much everything in between.

In the end, it's all grafting words and ideas onto lived reality. My advice? Just do what y'know.

Intresting Jane. I know non-binary has been around for a very long time, but it is now a very new to most as it has just gained traction. There are people out there, and even some on this form who think non-binary is for attention but not only do I disagree but I think they are ignorant. Non-Binary can be almost anything you want it to be and look like. I think that if one can harness both there male and female elements to their fullest extent good on them! I did a non-binary thing but have been living as a woman again for a host of reasons.

I see why many older people (anyone born before 1980) could be confused. Fact is until very recently life has been a super binary thing in society. So this whole notion of leaving a binary and becoming a mix, in the middle or whatever is kinda out of the norms. I too kinda thought non-binary was a bit odd at one point of my life, but I also had a lot of confusion in my life at the time. Not too mention I think a lot of AMAB non-binarys can be pretty cute hehehe

But yes, when one lives their whole life in hiding of their trans-feelings I can understand how seeing an NB may cause a lot of mixed feelings. But I am happy that society is getting out of the ''masculine man and feminine woman'' only
outlook and is slowly embracing all differences from the old binary system to mix of all. Its all up to the person!

Hugs-Ashley

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on March 24, 2017, 09:31:52 AM
Not too mention I think a lot of AMAB non-binarys can be pretty cute hehehe

I hear that.  I may be old, but I ain't dead.  It's interesting that if one can get out of the binary paradigm of madison avenue/hollywood created norms of male and female beauty and just look at the person one begins to see that lots of people whether they fully pass as male or female are really quite beautiful. Just as people.

Quote from: Jane Emily on March 24, 2017, 09:48:04 AM
I hear that.  I may be old, but I ain't dead.  It's interesting that if one can get out of the binary paradigm of madison avenue/hollywood created norms of male and female beauty and just look at the person one begins to see that lots of people whether they fully pass as male or female are really quite beautiful. Just as people.

Totally agreed. I think thats one thing that is confusing to a lot of people. They assume if you want to be female you must striclty be feminine. Well, I am in the process of transition and am dying to get GRS at some point hopefully before 2020.. That still doesnt mean I cant fish, camp, do mixed martial arts either !! But I enjoy my traditional feminine things like make up, shopping and coffee time with the girls. I did the non-binary thing too, and in honesty it wasnt bad but I knew that I would rather be female. Its all in the mind !

But yes, some AMAB non-binarys are drop dead gorgious. May also be because I do not find masculinity attractive or appealing in any way shape or form lol

Mikka,

We have  a lot of members who are at a lot of points along the spectrum. I think many people choose something to make life easier, even if it is not what they want. I know I am transitioning and started not knowing how far I would go. I kind of want to stay at this point to make it all easier(1 year into HRT, presenting in public in small amounts, not out at work). Although I do not use the phrase non binary, that is what it is and as my dress has become more androgynous I have become somewhat fluid in my day to day life.  The difference is I am choosing to act these ways. There are other members who have stayed at that spot for many of these practical reasons. Others have de-transitioned to please others. Interestingly enough, Kate Bornstein(author of Gender Outlaw about Men, Women and the Rest of US) is almost the opposite of what you ask. Transitioned to female. She now feels that she is neither male nor female. Yet prefers female pronouns to ..."to keep it easier".

However, if am truly honest; my wife asked if I could hold off coming out till my youngest child is in college. Then we could move and "start life over". It is supposedly easier for my kids, my wife and me. I have felt a build up of anxiety, for the last month or so. It feels like bursting and I want to transition more and faster. I think she recognizes it and would not stop me yet I am still dragging my feet. Change is hard and scary.

So, long story short(too late), I feel you are not alone.

I also know there is some quality of non binary and gender fluid that tends to confuse some. Binary is so much easier to wrap their heads around. I think discussing what we think it is versus what many feel is the accepted definition is good. However, let's just all be aware that these are our feelings. I would encourage any who do not fully grasp it to visit our wiki area where we have many words defined. Here is a link to our Trans 101 post:
https://www.susans.org/wiki/Trans_101

I have been over thinking a lot trying to figure out who I am to the point of depression.  I know its not healthy to do that.  I stressed my self with trying to find a legal name for myself,  trying on make up,  and then I was worried what if I had to stop hormones (incase of health issues will I still be a trans gender.)  I love who I am now.  I really don't want to go back to the male me.   But thank you for everyone's comments.

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Everything you said I have experienced as well. I'm not saying we are the same. However, as I mentioned, you are not alone. It's okay to overthink. Just try not to get stuck there. Every so often maybe you could step outside yourself and look at yourself. You maybe can find ways you are thankful(you kind of did) and what are truly problems versus fears.

I hope you have a good week end.

With warmth,

Joanna

I guess if being gender fluid is what makes me happy then why not just accept myself as gender fluid,  will probably just cause more stress on myself,  and my mental health.

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I can still wear male cloths,  but it doesn't mean I have to identify myself as a male that day, moment

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Also what I HATE the most,  sorry if I offend anyone who is on Youtube.  I hate it when I watch youtube videos on "what its like to be non binary and gender fluid." I hate that (not all but some.) Go to the extreme just to prove they are non-binary.   It almost feels like they are having a spilt personality.  Long Story Short.

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I don't know if being transsex is completely incompatible with being non-binary. Maybe I'm not using both words in their exact meaning, but I'll try to explain what I mean (sorry if I have some English errors, I'm not used to explaining this in English).

I'm still defining who I am, as I have written in some posts, and a bit lost. First of all, I separate the concepts of sex and gender, I see sex as a form of body expression (you have the characteristics of one of the sexes, or sth in the middle; and it is not something really fixed, you can change it in the "physical" part of transition, for example) and gender as a social construct and a way of being (adapting to the roles and behaviours of one of the numerous genders, and most important, what you feel about it -you feel like a woman, like a man, like sth else?-). Well, then sex for me is a physical concept while gender is more a social-mental one.

I also have a kind of struggle trying to know if I'm MtF or(and?) non-binary, and I don't really know yet (I consider that some of the best ways is experimenting with your gender identity if you can find a safe place or a support group). What you ask is something you only can answer, but, if it helps, this is how I feel: starting from the difference between sex and gender as I have understood it, in the view of gender I don't really have a special definition, in my inside I feel like if I was agender, I do not identify with the roles assigned to any gender and I think that imposing one on me would be somewhat limiting in what I can or can't be personally in the future (although I have an especial rejection of male roles and identity). I feel freer if in my interior there's no gender tag.
Nonetheless, talking about my body expression, since I started to question my gender and my body I've never liked being read as a male exteriorly, always hated the roles, the pronouns, the way of life, the social meaning of being a man... imposed on me because of that and looking at the mirror and seeing that. Even though (I think) I feel agender in the inside, I have a real desire of being read as a woman in society, I do want to have a female body at the same time I do not identify with any gender interiorly, and this is something that really strikes me.

For years I've seen this as a contradiction, and I'm still in the struggle of solving that. However, I'm starting to believe that maybe those are not actual contradictory ideas, maybe they can be separated? Maybe one is only about your feels and mind and the other is about your "gender performance", as some genderqueer theories propose?

You can make yourself this two questions: "how do I feel inside, who am I?" and "how do I want to be read in society?". To my mind, the answers don't need to match, you're the only entitled to answer this for you and every answer concerning sex and gender is as legitimate as any other.
This is what is working with me, and I really hope it can help you.

Hugs,
Q.

How do I truly feel? 
Transgender/Transfeminine/Non-Binary/Gender Fluid/androgynous and in the process of transitioning to become more female. 
That's how I feel.  Would i be ok living my life as a women all the time.... Well im not sure,  might be a bit too much stress on me.  Am I happy if I had a androgynous look?  Maybe.  I want to be able to pass as a female. That's my main goal.  That's what I have always stuck to.  I want to say... I am highly likely NB.

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So, maybe you feel NB and also want to be read as a woman, having a female body? As I said, I think is legitimate wanting to be read in some way but still being NB, the first is about your body, the second about how you behave, feel...

I know this is not easy, I'm with the same kind of contradiction too. Also looking into this themes have helped me a lot, maybe reading books or going to conferences, or simply staying in bed, looking inside my mind.
Explore yourself open to all possibilities and you will figure it out sooner or later, regarding this, no option is wrong.

Q.

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Everything you said I have experienced as well. I'm not saying we are the same. However, as I mentioned, you are not alone. It's okay to overthink. Just try not to get stuck there. Every so often maybe you could step outside yourself and look at yourself. You maybe can find ways you are thankful(you kind of did) and what are truly problems versus fears.

I hope you have a good week end.

With warmth,

Joanna

Quote from: theqnoumenon on March 24, 2017, 06:58:19 PM
You can make yourself this two questions: "how do I feel inside, who am I?" and "how do I want to be read in society?". To my mind, the answers don't need to match, you're the only entitled to answer this for you and every answer concerning sex and gender is as legitimate as any other.
This is what is working with me, and I really hope it can help you.

Hugs,
Q.

Yes,  Thank You theqnoumenon.  I looked up the term transgender and transsexual.  2 totally different things. Because sometimes I feel I want to be female and do more with my body,  but some days I don't "act" female BUT I still love my new body.   The first day I came out,  yeah I was a bit more girly,  but I still acted like me,  I didn't feel I needed to change my voice. Hmmmm... 1+ for you.  Thanks.

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My feelings about gender have always been essentially Binary. A reflection of the Pre-Jurasaic era this old dinosaur grew up in. A world where Gay was shunned and anything trans forget it. Still in the late 70's I had my first transition "experiment". An utter fail for a 6ft tall, big everything, deep voiced person in a world filled with 5'5" women and barely 5'10" men. Then add in an unhealthy dose of internalized transphobia. I never was able to shake the "Some Guy in a Dress" feeling. The people around me also noticed the same.  Still, a few years later I tried again after a failed marriage I hoped that would 'fix" me.

After that second attempt I settled on being a CD++. I had a dream I tried to make true twice and failed. My only hope in life was to be some sort of a "Normal"(ish) guy. I still wanted to be a woman, simply resigned to the fact it cannot and will never be. Non-Binary and Gender Fluid weren't even heard of back then. Perhaps only in practice for those brave enough to mostly accept being labeled of or thought of Gay or drag queen wannabe's. For the rest of us, those who had a dream of being a woman and couldn't, those who like me "Settled" on being and living "male", hiding our "Shame" filled aspect from the world and especially loved ones; What were we?

Eight years ago I took on the Trans-Beast for real. Once again Joanne ventured out into the sunlight, into the real world as her genuine self this time feeling the sheer joy of it after a ton of personal growth and healing. Soon I was living part-time as female as I had no overwhelming need to be full-time that outweighed the risks to other aspects of my life.... most days. A few years ago life circumstances changed again and part-time living was out of the question. A major strain but again... balancing of conflicting needs and wants.

Twice I was asked by the two different therapists I have seen, "What would be different if Joanne showed up to work tomorrow?". My immediate reflexive response was "Nothing, except being and feeling perhaps 100% genuine vs the 80% or so I feel now."  That was followed up with after they got over the shock of seeing this 6ft tall bald guy looking damn good for an old lady.

The Non-Binary label for me was adopted as a tool or a means to avoid or minimize the internal conflicts and angst of wanting to be binary but.... The reality on the ground, today, prevents me from being the binary of my genuine self. I needed to stop thinking in terms of "Binary". For the most part the person I am today is vastly different then the one I was 8 years ago. Before I was a lifeless, soulless Thing that only reason to exist was doing what others expected, including presentation. Today I have Joy while I am still learning who I really am, albeit at a far slower pace then when I was living part-time as female. My therapist said I shouldn't label myself. But labeling myself as a woman while living and presenting as male creates a ton more inner conflicts then NB, which is a far better fit.