Now that I think about it, there also seem to be two predominant archetypes in the media for trans women right now: the "Transparent" type who has a number of stereotypically male features and the drop-dead gorgeous model types (Laverne Cox, Caitlyn Jenner, etc.). Nobody seems to realize even yet that the third type, the "looks basically like every other woman, neither especially masculine nor outrageously gorgeous" kind, actually exists. And I think we're probably the majority, since most cis women aren't supermodels either...

Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 04:41:05 PM
I have heard about cis women getting clocked but I have a hard time believing it given I have an extremely strong transdar(which I hate about myself). I think women with so many masculine features that one would question their gender is extremely rare(probably 0.1 %).

This is a highly subjective matter. During my 30 minute walk from home to work in central London, I can easily spot around 5 females that look like trans to me.

Most of us just aren't distinctive or remarkable enough for a casual glance or quick look on the street to invite more detailed examination.  Most folks out in the world are just trying to get to their next appointment, or finish shopping before school lets out, or get the next sales call wrapped up.  They are not playing 'Spot the Trans Person.' 

That combination lets most of us just slide on by if we can just mask the most obvious tells, and show something like a reasonable appearance and posture.

I constantly see all sorts of discussion over fussy details, how one should hold one's hands, bent or straight elbows, optimal waist to hip ratios, and so on.  Look at the ciswomen on the street, and see how many of them in your age range meet the criteria you are supposed to meet to "pass."

I know for the 60+ set, most ciswomen don't "pass" by the criteria I see laid down.  Age, wear, and tear has taken it's toll on posture, silhouette, and stance.  Being stealth, looking like the ciswomen my age, seems in reach to me, and I don't see any arcane knowledge imparted by what passes for trans awareness impacting that.

i wouldnt include caitlyn jenner in the "drop dead gorgeous"  Jenna Marie   . Its not even because she is old, she has a complete plastic face its unreal and not even pretty. She has a makeup artist using tons of products and hair artist everyday to make her look the way she does + photoshop.   However i would say  laverne cox, carmen carrera Gigi gorgeous, Andreja pejic, Jenna telackova etc. as drop dead gorgeous models

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The awareness means more people are looking to spot. That's the impression I've got at least. It's now on people's radars where before they probably wouldn't have even looked twice. Although still it is usually the transwomen they are more aware of and society makes more of a (negative) fuss about.

Quote from: Aurorasky on March 24, 2017, 06:46:02 AM
True to an extent, but you can dress casual/chic and still pass and not mistaken for a cross-dresser. Also, you can be fully passable and also beautiful facially. I agree that if you don't want to bring attention to yourself, dress down. Most ts who are able to live stealthy lives do not come out like Gigi Gorgeous did. Gigi Gorgeous is beautiful but she was not completely passable before FFS. Therefore, she might value it differently. She likes the fame she gets by the T flag.

She still not passable esp by what I seen of her at the airport at Dubai ... and I thought she would have done the electrologist route because that 5 o clock shadow was very very dark. I use to think she was passable. But out of drag ? No ma'am. But still pretty tho


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Maybe I am missing something but having lived in almost 6 countries including the some where women don't wear any/minimal makeup and almost always wear their hair naturally, I never ever thought of any being trans except some bodybuilder/wrestler type in US.

Though agree that a plain yet feminine look helps more with deep stealth than the someone who is very attractive getting too much attention. But then there is all of those exaggerated  women I see in Southern California and nobody doubts them being trans.

Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 10:50:07 PM
Maybe I am missing something but having lived in almost 6 countries including the some where women don't wear any/minimal makeup and almost always wear their hair naturally, I never ever thought of any being trans except some bodybuilder/wrestler type in US.

Though agree that a plain yet feminine look helps more with deep stealth than the someone who is very attractive getting too much attention. But then there is all of those exaggerated  women I see in Southern California and nobody doubts them being trans.

I never understood that either. Like the body builder women I be like in my trans head "is that a man or a woman " (I think we are all guilty of this ) or a plastic surgery addict cis perfected woman .... surely they get that "are they real or trans " from other cis society norms ...


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Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 04:56:30 PM
Sophia,

Well my number 1 objective From stealth is no body ever knowing/questioning at my future job( based on my physical looks, voice and behavior).

I wouldn't limit myself to a future job -- my goal was to never have a conversation with anyone not already in the know about these issues.  (Well, with the exception the occasional doctor.) 

QuoteI got a little confused here, where you able to achieve that in long term relationships? Or that was not your objective?

Sorry, got a bit distracted writing that previous post. 

Yes, I've achieved that in long-term relationships -- professional, personal, and intimate.  It doesn't seem any different for me today personally than it did twenty years ago. 

Most of us are not going to achieve physical "perfection" -- but we can be solidly in the right range.  There's a hell of a lot we can do to get there.  (The importance of voice is still deeply underrated.)  And once we've done what we can do, it's just a matter of getting out there and living the life. 

Socialization can take time.  Some of it is predicated on passing.  Absorb like a sponge.

So many get hung up on narrative, though.  So much depends upon what your personal truth is.  If your personal truth is that you're trans, a life of non-disclosure isn't going to be very satisfying in the long run.  Sorry, but being trans kind of depends on maintaining that narrative, either through physical gender variance or through storytelling.  On the other hand, if your personal truth is that you're on the binary, then non-disclosure makes a whole lot more sense, but then there's a lot more to... account for.  We have to go back and rummage around in all our memories, rebuilding them to reflect the truth of being on the correct side of the binary, and how that played into all our relationships and all our choices throughout our lives.  To do so with integrity can be challenging. 

Not that any of those stories are stories that will be told.  That's not the point.  The point is simply to get everything in your life to cohere, narratively speaking.  That's all.  It's a synthesis, an integration. 

And so we take that eidos and hold it close as we step out into the world.  It's amazing how far we can go with a modicum of confidence...

When I first thought of transitioning being in stealth was my final goal. I'm truly lucky, 5ft 6ins 130 ibs and fine boned. took speech thearapy learned to walk and develop feminine movements. My ffs and ba made me pass without a second glance. So I now look and behave like a female. Then my whole attitude did a U turn. Had my srs and no longer wanted to continue my life of lies. I lied to myself and my friends by not coming out  honestly as my real self. Now that I feel comfortable in body and mind I dont want to hide that I was a male. This, to me would be living yet another lie. I  am today so very proud to be the 3rd gender. We truly are blessed to live two lives in a lifetime.

So I now and "behave " like a woman ? Honey women act different ways some of trans sound like misogynistic patriarchy types ....


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I am petite -5'3, I am not supermodel gorgeous but I can say I am pretty... I am very passable and have been living stealth for a very long time.... It can be a very lonely life... Hard to develop real new friendships...You'll be always hiding a part of u....And I agree that no matter how passable u r, someone sowhere can/ will clock u or betray u...U can still try to look pretty and dress well/ not average and not be clocked but the sexier, the sluttier or the more overdone ur make up etc d more likelihood that you'll get clocked.... Relationship wise you'll be paranoid... I try to go for d sweet ethereal girl next door aura look and I can say I think I am successful in living stealth but again it is a very lonely life... U really would have to cut off people and friends from your life bec they'll talk with or without ill motives, intentional or accidental....

Quote from: Ypsf09 on March 24, 2017, 03:35:25 AM

I have heard some girls here about living in complete stealth for years including not telling their long term partners, makes me wonder if it's even possible in current times.

I have often wondered is there many girls that live completely stealth without telling their long term partners, love to know how they deal with that, I would find that difficult, I live stealth now as a married woman but my husband does know, I told him before we got married, I pass perfectly, I don't stand out, at the shopping mall doing my grocery shopping nobody gives me a second glance, just another boring housewife.

Clocking literally makes no sense to me.
When someones changed their gender marker on all their pieces of ID and mostly transitioned, what honestly do they have to fear from some random calling them out incorrectly? And I say incorrectly because biologically, legally, and visually, they ARE the gender they are presenting, who cares if they're not representing someone else's ideal for what they should be?

If someone raises a stink one day because I'm in the ladies room, and I'm confronted about what I'm doing in there my response is going to be; 'Changing my pad, *censored* off, I'm not in the mood!'

Quote from: Kylo on March 24, 2017, 07:48:44 PM
The awareness means more people are looking to spot. That's the impression I've got at least. It's now on people's radars where before they probably wouldn't have even looked twice. Although still it is usually the transwomen they are more aware of and society makes more of a (negative) fuss about.

I find we're only on SOME peoples radars. Most people don't care enough to stand there at the mall or bus stop saying; 'Thats an FtM/MtF for sure, check out their *whatever.*' That takes a special kind of loser. (Sure, there may be LOTS of losers out there.)

Quote from: Inarasarah on March 24, 2017, 10:37:37 AM
Looking at this from a societal standpoint, I would rather have better trans-awareness than have to live stealth.  I am so very greatful to ever trans person who has paved the road that I walk today.  Those that had to live stealth, who proved it could be done.  And those who lived openly, facing the challenges of society to make the world a better place.  I do not live stealth, but I also am not that public about discussing my past.  Those who know, do not make it an issue and I have not ever felt that I am unwelcomed in my neighborhood.  Do I live stealth? Well kind of (despite the rainbow flag that flies in front of my house). However, I am never afraid to tell my story to those that it can help, to those who can learn from my experience, and to those who I can educate.

I value privacy so greatly, but I value societal acceptance more.  To live in a society where it doen't matter if you are a cis-woman, a trans-guy, or a non-binary individual would be amazing.  In a world where pepole are free to live as who they are and explore who they can be without judgement or fear of ridicule would be incredible.  But we do not live in that world, and just reading about how many trans-women are murdered each year breaks my heart.  This is why many of us long to live stealth, so that we do not stand out, so that we disappear into society.  Every death of a trans-person reinforces my belief that we need trans awareness more everyday.  We need to let people know that we are here, we are valued members of society, and our lives matter.  If increasing trans awareness deminishes the ability of people to live stealth, but it also reduces the number of trans-pwople murdered, I will take that trade-off.

Equal rights, acceptance, and freedom are worth fighting for and ultimately it should not matter if you are transgendered or cis.  You are human, beautiful, and you matter...

I couldn't agree more.

Quote from: Jenna Marie on March 24, 2017, 05:41:10 PM
Now that I think about it, there also seem to be two predominant archetypes in the media for trans women right now: the "Transparent" type who has a number of stereotypically male features and the drop-dead gorgeous model types (Laverne Cox, Caitlyn Jenner, etc.). Nobody seems to realize even yet that the third type, the "looks basically like every other woman, neither especially masculine nor outrageously gorgeous" kind, actually exists. And I think we're probably the majority, since most cis women aren't supermodels either...

I never understood why cis-gender women don't try to look their best. Even as a guy, I try to look attractive, I used to stop traffic just with my looks alone (not lying; like when I wear a white shirts, and try to go across the street and I'm like a 3-minute distance, cars would literally stop when most of the time they will speed past me), I had people coming up to me in the malls just to talk to me. I saw the "gaze" in their eyes. It was thrilling.

The cons are usually people think they have ownership of you, like too many guys put their hands on me... when it's not needed. I had guys touching my face, my shoulders all the time. One straight guy even touched my butt while drunk, and another guy said I smell like a woman (I was wearing a lotion with pheromones that day).

That's not happening much right now (actually I been getting hit on by straight women lately; not sure that's a good thing), but that's because I don't have my beauty regime at high maintenance at the moment. Need to lose 20 lbs too.

Quote from: warlockmaker on March 25, 2017, 12:29:09 AM
We truly are blessed to live two lives in a lifetime.

Sage words.  I often reflect on how special I am to have all of my unique experiences.  I would not be the woman I am today had I not been the man I once was.  While I hold no regrets nor sense of loss for the person I once was, I do feel blessed to have walked the path I have.

Quote from: Inarasarah on March 25, 2017, 10:44:09 AM
Sage words.  I often reflect on how special I am to have all of my unique experiences.  I would not be the woman I am today had I not been the man I once was.  While I hold no regrets nor sense of loss for the person I once was, I do feel blessed to have walked the path I have.

Never thought it like that, but it's true, at least for me. I can read people so fast, and it takes weeks if not months for others. People read the obvious, but I read the subtle hidden psychologies of people. I can pick up bisexuality in people so fast too. If a woman finds me as a guy attractive, she's slightly lesbian... because I am not the average man at all.

Quote from: Miss Lux on March 25, 2017, 01:49:45 AMI am petite -5'3, I am not supermodel gorgeous but I can say I am pretty... I am very passable and have been living stealth for a very long time.... It can be a very lonely life... Hard to develop real new friendships...You'll be always hiding a part of u....

"Always hiding a part of u..."

...it doesn't feel that way to me.  I am female.  This is my basic truth, and it's confirmed by the world every day.  To me, invoking a trans narrative would get in the way of that.  It would hide who I am.  Now, do agree with Inarasarah that it shouldn't get in the way of that?  Yes.  It shouldn't matter.  But it does, because most people are so rooted in biological essentialism.  So it goes.

I wonder, though, if the issue of "narrative" is that it's so wrapped up in the ritual of transition itself -- we have to tell all kinds of people a trans narrative to get the treatments we need to live our lives correctly.  And transition itself typically takes several years.  We spend a lot of time thinking about it, planning it, dealing with emotional fallout, what have you.  It kind of reminds me of college, how insular it can be.  Letting go of the narrative is very much like letting go of college upon graduation. 

I haven't had issues with loneliness.  I make friends pretty easily, and I know how to develop a relationship over time with people whose company I truly enjoy.  Or a lover, for that matter.  I've just had to get out in the world, be gregarious, be myself.  It's kind of like moving to a new country -- it can be lonely at first, yes, but after a few months that just wasn't the case anymore. 

QuoteU really would have to cut off people and friends from your life bec they'll talk with or without ill motives, intentional or accidental....

In this respect I was really lucky.  I did not have a particularly large set of friends outside of church, and none of them were all that interested in my transitioning.  So these were people I was going to lose anyways. 

But where I really got lucky was with my parents and sister, all of whom lived in a different city than me.  By the time transition had come to a close, and I was preparing to practice non-disclosure, I made it very clear what the protocol was going to be if they wanted to keep me in their lives.  And to their unending credit, they complied.  To the point where I was able to have a lover meet them without incident.  More importantly, it still makes for very smooth waters when I come home to visit; even in our day-to-day conversations, narrative non-disclosure is still the rule.

This is not a typical experience.

Even if I had lost everyone, though, there's no reason to be paranoid in relationships, intimate or otherwise.  Yeah, at first it's normal to be paranoid, but after a year or two I got quite used to it. 

A year or two. 

Yeah, this still takes time.

Quote from: Wild Flower on March 25, 2017, 10:43:17 AM
I never understood why cis-gender women don't try to look their best. Even as a guy, I try to look attractive, I used to stop traffic just with my looks alone (not lying; like when I wear a white shirts, and try to go across the street and I'm like a 3-minute distance, cars would literally stop when most of the time they will speed past me), I had people coming up to me in the malls just to talk to me. I saw the "gaze" in their eyes. It was thrilling.

The cons are usually people think they have ownership of you, like too many guys put their hands on me... when it's not needed. I had guys touching my face, my shoulders all the time. One straight guy even touched my butt while drunk, and another guy said I smell like a woman (I was wearing a lotion with pheromones that day).

That's not happening much right now (actually I been getting hit on by straight women lately; not sure that's a good thing), but that's because I don't have my beauty regime at high maintenance at the moment. Need to lose 20 lbs too.

You've given at least one good reason in your second paragraph as to why some "cis women don't try to look their best".

As to other reasons, there must be thousands. People on the school run or their way to work or trying to get round the supermarket don't generally want to have their egos massaged by traffic screeching to a halt.

Quote from: Wild Flower on March 25, 2017, 10:50:09 AM
Never thought it like that, but it's true, at least for me. I can read people so fast, and it takes weeks if not months for others. People read the obvious, but I read the subtle hidden psychologies of people. I can pick up bisexuality in people so fast too. If a woman finds me as a guy attractive, she's slightly lesbian... because I am not the average man at all.

Or maybe she just knows her own sexual preferences better than a stranger who feels they have a talent for sizing up people's hidden psychological motives.