(Warning: I'm feeling silly today....)

My own point of view (and it must be the One True Point Of View, because I have it ) is that labels aren't all that important.

The important thing is to figure out how to be YOU.  The labels are only important to the extent they help you do that.  I mean, if deciding you really have the soul of a giraffe helps you become who you really are, go for it!  (Although, if you do, I'd advise taking great care when browsing leaves that are 6 meters off the ground )

The thing is, the definitions of trans terms are in a state of flux, anyway, so whatever one person or website says is going to be contradicted by the next.  And they're a little vague, too.  And people disagree, too.  I refer to myself as "Non-binary MtF", which some people insist (rather loudly) is a contradiction in terms.  I also am doing the full medical MtF transition, yet I don't "identify as female" (whatever that means), and people say that is impossible, too.  But I'm too busy being me (or trying to) to waste my time on such disagreements.  (Besides, my Mom always said I was "impossible."  Can't prove my Mom wrong now, can I?  )

And we're in a state of flux, too.  (And not just trans people, either.)  Who you are (or think you are) today isn't who you'll be (or will think you are) a few years from now.  If you're anything like me, in five years, you'll look back at what you wrote and thought and just smile at how naïve you were.

Quote from: Asche on March 25, 2017, 08:59:13 AM
And we're in a state of flux, too.  (And not just trans people, either.)  Who you are (or think you are) today isn't who you'll be (or will think you are) a few years from now.  If you're anything like me, in five years, you'll look back at what you wrote and thought and just smile at how naïve you were.

That is the thing that scares me.  What if in a few years I regret my MTF transition. 

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Quote from: Asche on March 25, 2017, 08:59:13 AM
My own point of view (and it must be the One True Point Of View, because I have it ) is that labels aren't all that important.

The important thing is to figure out how to be YOU.  The labels are only important to the extent they help you do that.  I mean, if deciding you really have the soul of a giraffe helps you become who you really are, go for it!  (Although, if you do, I'd advise taking great care when browsing leaves that are 6 meters off the ground )

THAT'S IT, that is the sense I find in using labels to describe yourself, and everything you think about you or want to be is valid and legitimate.
Nonetheless, I also consider that labels are useful in order to be identified in society. At the present time, if you don't have a label to identify your group you don't exist, and this can be one of the major causes of discrimination, but we can debate this in another topic.

Quote from: Mikka55 on March 25, 2017, 10:03:34 AM
That is the thing that scares me.  What if in a few years I regret my MTF transition. 

Well, the answer to that question is impossible, but what if you reverse it? If there's no transition, what if in a few years you regret not transitioning? If you are happy with your new body, as said before, go for it!

Mikka, I'm in a bit in a similar situation. I don't believe the two are mutually exclusive.

I identified as genderfluid for about 3 years, and while that label does still fit me in some ways, more and more, I think I do want to fully transition eventually. I don't think I'll ever have a totally binary viewpoint on gender again, and why would I want to? It was pretty limiting, and I don't think I'd like limiting myself to the norms and expectations of being a woman any more than I liked limiting myself to the norms and expectations of being a guy.

We do live in a binary world though, and sometimes binary choices have to be made. As for possible regrets, that scares me too, though quite a bit less so now than when I first admitted to myself that I am definitely not a cis-gender guy. I already tried living as a guy for over three decades, and these thoughts of wanting to live as a woman just didn't go away. I currently regret wasting so much time trying to be a guy. I don't regret living as genderfluid, though I am pushing myself into an awkward non-passing trans woman presentation quite often now.

Love this thread, and it's a question I've asked myself many times, especially since losing my partner and soulmate last summer.

I identify as non-binary (transfeminine). I didn't even know these terms existed until a couple of years ago - but I always knew I wasn't just a ->-bleeped-<- - but not quite a transsexual either. I always felt somwhere in between the two.

Since then, I've pushed my boundaries more and more, having my eyebrows plucked regularly, having my nails done, having laser on my face and being referred to my local gender clinic - I hope to start HRT before this year's out. Long process on the NHS.

I've asked myself the same question as you: am I really transsexual? But I honestly don't think I am. I like my male side - football, beer, etc - though love my female side far more. In an ideal world where no-one judged people, would I present as female every day? Yeah, possibly.

But the fact is that it's not an ideal world, and I care very much what other people think of me. I know I shouldn't but I can't help it.

So that's why I plan to take estrogen, and yet still present as male - or at least androgynous. I'll present as a girl sometimes, possibly with certain friends. But I'd never go to the football in a skirt or I'd be laughed out of the stadium by people who know me there.

Labels are funny things. I wrote on my blog a while back about sexuality for non-binary people. I like women - whether trans or cis. But if I'm non-binary, how can I say I'm straight? To be straight means you fancy a member of the opposite sex. But being non-binary means there is no opposite sex for me. Gay, bi, poly, etc - none of the labels fit. Good job I don't care about labels.

I'm just me. If the estrogen changes how I think and I evolve into being transsexual, that's one bridge I'll cross when I come to it. I don't think it will, though, as my levels of gender dysphoria are far lower than many trans people.

Anyway, that's just my two penneth. Thanks for reading!

Andie xxx

Transition is not necessarily points moving across a spectrum line.

It can be the whole spectrum at once.

Fear can interfere with your self perception of gender, but deep down in your core you know who you are.

I transitioned fully to mtf trans, in a binary transition, no ops.   Will I change the bottom?   who knows.

But I am nonbinary, and an androgyne.   I also live as a woman.  It depends on the social situation, my mood, different things, but what does not change is me, who I am.   And I am not a woman, nor am I a man.  So I am nonbinary.

I am also mtf trans by definition.  I have a complete transition.  And I won't wear mens underthings, no way.  Its not who I am physically, phsically I am mtf trans, sexually I am mtf trans.

But my core is me, and that is not going to fit any gender stereotype or label.

Regrets?  About transition- my 4 years of high dose estrogen shots?  NO.   None.  I know I need this body, this me, this look in the mirror.   

But the question to ask is, what would you regret?  What specifically are you worried about regretting?

I already have my children, there is that part of things.  And living trans is a big deal, its not easy.  I live it.  I am full time sh'e.  But sh'e has many presentations.

There is a concern about a pendulum swing, to move away from the female target, recenter in the middle.  So long as you don't deny a part of who you are, repress it, it is ok.  But when you suppress part of your gender identity, things have a way of popping up on you, truth eventually will always find its way out.

There are many nonbinary mtf transfolks out there.   They may not admit it, not really, but they know well they are "more than women".  And there are many binary transfolks out there too, and they are women through and through.

There are a thousand ways to be trans.  Live your truth, who you are, deep down inside, eyes wide open, heart wide open, feeling the feelings and being who you really are.   Gender for me is simultaneious and a symphony.  Not a point on the line.  Its the entire line, formed into a circle, a sphere.  Formed into the diamond heart of trans.

Quote from: Asche on March 25, 2017, 08:59:13 AM
The thing is, the definitions of trans terms are in a state of flux, anyway, so whatever one person or website says is going to be contradicted by the next.  And they're a little vague, too.  And people disagree, too.  I refer to myself as "Non-binary MtF", which some people insist (rather loudly) is a contradiction in terms.  I also am doing the full medical MtF transition, yet I don't "identify as female" (whatever that means), and people say that is impossible, too.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds."
-Emerson

Quote from: Satinjoy on March 26, 2017, 10:20:42 PM
Transition is not necessarily points moving across a spectrum line.

It can be the whole spectrum at once.

Fear can interfere with your self perception of gender, but deep down in your core you know who you are.

I transitioned fully to mtf trans, in a binary transition, no ops.   Will I change the bottom?   who knows.

But I am nonbinary, and an androgyne.   I also live as a woman.  It depends on the social situation, my mood, different things, but what does not change is me, who I am.   And I am not a woman, nor am I a man.  So I am nonbinary.

I am also mtf trans by definition.  I have a complete transition.  And I won't wear mens underthings, no way.  Its not who I am physically, phsically I am mtf trans, sexually I am mtf trans.

But my core is me, and that is not going to fit any gender stereotype or label.

Regrets?  About transition- my 4 years of high dose estrogen shots?  NO.   None.  I know I need this body, this me, this look in the mirror.   

But the question to ask is, what would you regret?  What specifically are you worried about regretting?

I already have my children, there is that part of things.  And living trans is a big deal, its not easy.  I live it.  I am full time sh'e.  But sh'e has many presentations.

There is a concern about a pendulum swing, to move away from the female target, recenter in the middle.  So long as you don't deny a part of who you are, repress it, it is ok.  But when you suppress part of your gender identity, things have a way of popping up on you, truth eventually will always find its way out.

There are many nonbinary mtf transfolks out there.   They may not admit it, not really, but they know well they are "more than women".  And there are many binary transfolks out there too, and they are women through and through.

There are a thousand ways to be trans.  Live your truth, who you are, deep down inside, eyes wide open, heart wide open, feeling the feelings and being who you really are.   Gender for me is simultaneious and a symphony.  Not a point on the line.  Its the entire line, formed into a circle, a sphere.  Formed into the diamond heart of trans.

Beautiful post, Satin. xxx

Quote from: Dayta on March 24, 2017, 09:11:53 AM
But as some of my peers have stated, I didn't grow up with "non-binary" in my vocabulary, so I'm certain I don't see it in the same way that many of the young people today do.

It's interesting that we had the same experience but with opposite reactions. I've been dysphoric over my gender since I was a teen in the mid 1980s, and without being aware of non-binary options I felt "trans" didn't fit and rejected the possibility. I wanted a penis, but I didn't want to give up being a girl. I wanted a penis *and* a vagina (and no one ever mentioned it was possible). I was dysphoric over my all-girl physical presentation but I love being a girl. I heard about non-binary a few years ago, but it wasn't made clear what it meant. It wasn't until I read the exact definition of bi-gender that I finally realized I AM trans. Just not the kind the the media shows all the time.

I keep wondering how many older MtFs and FtMs there are out there who are actually non-binary, but end up identifying binary trans because they weren't given the concept as an option "back when."

Quote from: Cailan Jade on March 28, 2017, 08:52:14 PM
I keep wondering how many older MtFs and FtMs there are out there who are actually non-binary, but end up identifying binary trans because they weren't given the concept as an option "back when."

The concept didn't exist back then and I suspect they fell into the transition failure category. They either had surgery and regretted it, RLE made them realize it wasn't for them or lived as a cross dresser or ->-bleeped-<- which were known at the time. Even today I have worked with bigender/gender fluid people who have been to therapy but the therapist couldn't figure out what was going on.

Then again, I suspect many people out there don't feel right but really don't understand what it is until something external causes their mind to click. In my case, I understood what I felt but it took a newspaper article to give it a name and me a direction.

From my research, non-binary trans was a known thing in the psych world as early as the 1970s, but it wasn't acknowledged because at that time they were only dealing with MtFs, and a few FtMs, and to get treatment you also had to be sexually interested only in the opposite sex of your target gender to even get HRT. The Harry Benjamin gatekeeping rules were ridiculous and homophobic. It's hard to believe WPATH kept them going until 2004.

I keep hearing many of these gatekeeping rules are still used today in "progressive" European countries. Oy.

The standards I was treated under didn't place restrictions on sexual preference. The senior member of the group were involved in producing the standards that proceeded WPATH so it was possible to be treated without worrying about sexual attraction in many gender programs.

You are correct that some countries still have gate keeping and some of the members have told stories about this.

Quote from: theqnoumenon on March 25, 2017, 04:39:22 PM
Well, the answer to that question is impossible, but what if you reverse it? If there's no transition, what if in a few years you regret not transitioning? If you are happy with your new body, as said before, go for it!

It's the folks who don't understand that messes with my mind.

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Quote from: Mikka55 on March 29, 2017, 06:06:05 PM
It's the folks who don't understand that messes with my mind.

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You are doing this for yourself and not somebody else. Their approval isn't required and once you understand that, you are able to make the best decision for you. Attempting to please other will greatly delay coming to peace with yourself.

Quote from: Dena on March 29, 2017, 06:58:39 PM

Quote from: Mikka55 on March 29, 2017, 06:06:05 PM
It's the folks who don't understand that messes with my mind.

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You are doing this for yourself and not somebody else. Their approval isn't required and once you understand that, you are able to make the best decision for you. Attempting to please other will greatly delay coming to peace with yourself.

Dena beat me to it. That's the truth ^^^ right there.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on March 29, 2017, 07:25:33 PM
You are doing this for yourself and not somebody else. Their approval isn't required and once you understand that, you are able to make the best decision for you. Attempting to please other will greatly delay coming to peace with yourself.


Dena beat me to it. That's the truth ^^^ right there.

Hugs, Devlyn

Some Universal Truths are far easier said then done. Especially when you were either A) Teased unmercifully. B) Beaten up on, or C) All of the above, for being different. Scars from childhood tend not to fade with time, even 50 or more years later.

Sorry folks just bare with me.  I know we have gone through this topic 1000 times.  Lets go back to basics... What is transgender and what is transexual.   If I can transition ill be mtf... but I can also be non binary right?  no gender to female.  But definitely not male. I don't feel I need to show my non gender side because i don't mind actually being viewed as female even on no gender  days.   I want to say im 80% comfortable being Mikka even on non gender days.   So some know I want to transition further to become female.... So that would make me a transsexual? 
Or even in the process of transitioning teach shave/ hormones... Can you still be called a transexual?  or does it need to be a full transition to be transexusl?  please help me out.

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Somebody who is transgender can be either non binary or transsexual. Transsexual is somebody who has a binary view on gender. Somebody who is non binary is somewhere in the middle. Transsexuals desire to change their body to the opposite gender as much as possible however if you are non binary, surgery may still be desirable.

Personally, I was a transsexual because my gender identity is fully feminine. Remaining male held no attraction to me and I have never regretted my decision. As for you, I can't say because I don't know exactly what you feel. It normal to be somewhat confused about where in the spectrum you fit in the early stages but that's why the RLE requirement exist. It gives you time to work with your gender and discover where you really fit into the picture.

Can you still tell people that they are transexual even if they didn't do srs,  or in the process of transitioning?

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