ETA: I posted something similar to this before, but this is an update and I still haven't found a great solution yet.

So now I'm 9 months on T and only recently starting to pass, but definitely not even passing 100% of the time. My voice still hasn't dropped. My body is mostly feminine. My face is the most masculine part of me and the thing that helps me pass at least some of the time, as I do have facial hair and generally a somewhat masculine facial structure. But I'm so tired of living in this in-between mode. It's seriously messing with me.

But probably my biggest concern is...-I- still don't feel truly male. I know that I LIKE how masculine my face looks; I like when I look masculine in pictures, etc. But I still feel like it's just a costume.

Like when people DO call me "sir"/"bro", etc, and read me as male (strangers, not people that already know I'm trans, cuz that doesn't really count), I have a mixture of emotions. I'm happy about it and I feel more comfortable, but at the same time, I feel like..."They're assuming something about me that's not true. They're assuming I have a penis, that I don't have breasts, that I don't have the female body or upbringing that I actually do have." And that sometimes makes me feel like a fraud.

I'm much happier with my appearance when I look male. When I can look in the mirror and see someone that looks male. But I always go back to the fact that it's just an illusion. If I take off my clothes, what do I really have? A slightly masculinized female body.

I worry too that, because having a penis is THE thing that defines 'male' to 95% of society, that even when I pass 100% of the time and even after I have my chest surgery, I'll still feel like a fraud because I don't have THE definitive piece of maleness.

I dunno what to do. When, if ever, will I truly feel like I have the right to say I'm male? When will I believe it for myself and feel legitimate? I feel like I still see myself as female because that's how I was brought up and that's the body I was born with and most of the parts I still have; sometimes when I interact with people, especially cis guys, I "default" to acting female too, and that definitely bothers me.

I'm considering switching to injections because 9 months and only now starting to pass some of the time...does that seem right to you guys? I see a lot of trans guys that 100% pass, voice dropped, EVERYTHING by 4 months on injections...And I think that maybe if I started to pass 100% of the time, maybe that would help? I'm not sure.

Got no answers for you, but I feel almost exactly the same as you about being a fraud.  I'm hoping with time these feelings will go away though.

I'm 8 1/2 months on t and only pass 60-70 percent of the time depending on how much effort I put into it before leaving the house.  My voice passes about the same on the phone.  I've been on injections since the beginning and am 32 years old.

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If a cis guy lost his penis to a disease or something, which does happen, does he cease to be a male? I get your point and acknowledge it but it's not what defines a male or causes someone to suddenly become "not male" if they happen to lose it. You currently have the same issue any cis guy with that problem does, and the doubts, troubles and insecurities are probably very similar.

There are no 'rights' of that kind. People say and believe what they want about themselves and it can't really be taken away from them. Other people can say what they think about it as well and it doesn't matter. You have to decide for yourself what you are and what to be, as leaving that up to society isn't enough... the fact it isn't enough is why we're all here talking about this, but can't ask us when you will believe it - we don't know ... only you know yourself and why you decided to transition.

But 9 months isn't long enough for a normal male puberty to take place, so give it longer. It can be 5 years or more for some and the same goes for taking T. 

There's only one way out of feeling like a fraud - knowing yourself. If you went 'back' you'd probably feel like a fraudulent female too - I know I did - and what use is that if you're seeking authenticity? The only way is forward.

It's understandably difficult to "feel like a man" but then not actually know what being a man feels like - but remember, nobody else knows what being anything is like other than being what they are. A man does not know how all other men feel, he knows only what it is to be himself, even if he does have some common biological concerns with them. Nobody knows what it is others feel for sure. If you stopped a cis man in the street and asked him what it is to truly be a man, can he tell you? He can tell you some things about having a male body, but would his answer to the "truly" be the same as the next man's? What he would likely be telling you is what it feels like to be human, or to live in a gender role as prescribed by a particular society. Nobody's ever been able to tell me exactly what the essence of being human and alive is, either... much less the essence of being male or female. None of them could give you an adequate answer to whether one person truly feels like another. You're going to have to write your own story on that. We all are.

     

Sorry dude,

Thing is yes most of society sees "having a dick" as male, but do they see your dick? No. Are you hiding it from people? You dont go around showing people your genitals as valid confirmation of what youre supposed to be in their eyes. You feel male, you feel better looking masculine...there's your answer. That is you. If you start feeling self concious because of what people would think if they knew, that's when it falls apart. Nobody ever has to know about that personal part of your life, no one who isnt intimate with you needs to know. If you show people what you are, it is what you are. There's nothing fraudulant about that.

As for the acting, that's a bit harder. The best way is to just be yourself and like before, dont overthink and dont be self conscious, even though most men have a culture, not all of them fit it, and that's where you fall. Surely youve had experiences in your childhood that are neither male or female, but just you being a kid? There's not necessarily a growing up process in being a guy, if you felt those tinges of masculine traits in your youth and acted on a lot of those, there's your background.

I understand what it must be to feel like you are still female. Personally, since 95% of the population as you say counts having a penis as male, I feel like, at least biologically, I am female. None of that will ever change. Sex is all the bits you cannot change, but gender? You and I both know that as male. Feeling male, seeing male, and being more comfortable in masculine form is our gender, that's what we are and what people see. Not the genitals and not the chromosome.

You're not lying to yourself and you're not lying to anyone else. Just walk the walk and be yourself and you'll be fine.

QuoteIf you stopped a cis man in the street and asked him what it is to truly be a man, can he tell you? He can tell you some things about having a male body, but would his answer to the "truly" be the same as the next man's? What he would likely be telling you is what it feels like to be human, or to live in a gender role as prescribed by a particular society. Nobody's ever been able to tell me exactly what the essence of being human and alive is, either... much less the essence of being male or female. None of them could give you an adequate answer to whether one person truly feels like another. You're going to have to write your own story on that. We all are.

   

Now that I think about it, my answer and OP's with most the population thinking "having a dick"  as a man is mostly what men think when comparing transgender men to biological l men,

However, I have heard the typical responses to "What makes you a man", and surprisingly a lot of those traits are virtuous or value traits rather than physical, things that arent even exclusively male like caring for your family in a household, being a good father, always being true to your word, standing your ground, being compassionate, etc. Essentially exactly what you said. A lot of those traits are something that isnt geared to anything physical. So you are definitely right.

I don't think I can offer much advice but just to let you know I still feel the same way. What has helped slightly is starting a new job in stealth mode as it has forced to me to try to fit in and to feel somewhat 'normal'.  Where I work at least all you have to do is stand your ground and make fun of each other a bit and you're accepted into the male club. Although I'm still a bit useless at that; what I have noticed is that one of my managers who's a bit fem and camp in his mannerisms and how he talks has a bit of difficulty also relating to the guys at work but ofc he's still seen as male and respected and treated no different. So as a trans guy there's hope for me too.

Even though I still feel awkwardly inbetween; I hope this'll change once I get top surgery though and be able to start a new career soon afterwards. To add to the penis discussion it wouldn't matter if a cis guy had a smaller than average one as that wouldn't make him less male or seen as less male. It's how you act which matters.

I can relate to what you say Bacon. I feel like I' m lying to people if I say "I' m male" because it might not be exactly what they are expecting. At the same time I' m lying to people if I say "I' m female" because it's not really either what they are expecting. Both for different reasons. Who is our true self though? Is it the spirit or is it the body? Saying "we're male", is lying to those who think it's the body, and saying "I' m female" to those that think it's the spirit. I realized lately that our true self is whatever form we take where we feel more free, comfortable and able to express our full potential. Posing as a persona that doesn't fit us is not only a disservice to ourselves, but also to others because we're taking away from them the "magic" that we could be offering otherwise. Most people will ultimately care about what they feel more than what they think, and what they feel is related to what they perceive. What they perceive has to do with their own expectations, experiences and to what we transmit, not strictly physically but with how we move, how we react, how we feel, the general "vibration" we transmit. I always recall this incident where I was in cosplay, waiting for something with the president of that particular series' fanclub. It's a costume I feel a bit self conscious about, because although the clothes are fine, I' m not tall enough (or at all), I have a different body shape, a different facial shape, and I can never fix my hair correctly (leaving aside the fact that I' m the opposite sex). However, she turned around and awkwardly said "It's weird but... I sorta feel like I' m with him (the character) right now". That was really strange (and self assuring), like, if I could look like him, there, I go and conquer the world right now. However, what did she perceive? what could I have possibly done for her to feel that way? What did she see that I didn't? In the end it's all about that, something that we transmit, beyond our physical form, that makes people perceive us.

It is for these reasons that I don't think we should focus on our bodies that much, just enough for us to feel comfortable, but we will never feel comfortable until we accept ourselves mentally. That's also why I don't like the terms FTM and MTF, and I prefer Transman and Transwoman instead. FTM is focusing only in the body, because what is it that it's female after all and needs transitioning? Just the body, since our gender has always been male. FTM focuses on transition. And when will that transition ever be complete? When will THE BODY ever be male? If we do everything that medical science can offer us? what if something new comes up tomorrow? It's a cycle that will never end, and we will always be stuck as FTMs then.

Now, as to how to "feel like a man", it's a problem that many cis guys have as well (they feel like teenage boys and not real men even though they are 30). And not only men, you also see in medical forums many students asking "when will I feel like a doctor?", you can complete medical school and not feel like one even though legally and technically you are. The answer is actually quite simple "ACT LIKE ONE, BECOME ONE". The thing is, you need to establish what being a man is to you, what a man does, and then do those things. Personally, and especially with the whole "feeling like a doctor", my problem is that I had too many examples of what "being a doctor" was like. That's BAD, focus on one. You go out and see 50 guys in the street, they are all different, they all do different things, then anything you do is "male", but that doesn't help. My advice then is to think of someone who you consider to be "A man" and emulate them, do what they do, try to embrace how they think if you think it's worthy. Eventually you will become them.

Good luck!

Quote from: David1987 on April 02, 2017, 09:04:03 AM

It is for these reasons that I don't think we should focus on our bodies that much, just enough for us to feel comfortable, but we will never feel comfortable until we accept ourselves mentally. That's also why I don't like the terms FTM and MTF, and I prefer Transman and Transwoman instead. FTM is focusing only in the body, because what is it that it's female after all and needs transitioning? Just the body, since our gender has always been male. FTM focuses on transition. And when will that transition ever be complete? When will THE BODY ever be male? If we do everything that medical science can offer us? what if something new comes up tomorrow? It's a cycle that will never end, and we will always be stuck as FTMs then.

I think ftm and mtf exists in cases where context needs to define what someone was born as vs what they are transitioning as, since cis or less educated people might get confused with terms like "transgender woman" (I know I did, because "wait is that a man who's transitioning to be a woman or a woman transitioning to be a man"?, not everyone knows that the term describes what they become as themselves, not what they're transitioning out of). So to clarify that FTM and MTF exist as a way to know how someone is transitioning, and it doesnt always have to be used but in discussion based terms where you want to make the subject clear I think those terms are very helpful in existing, actually.

Quote from: David1987 on April 02, 2017, 09:04:03 AMAnd not only men, you also see in medical forums many students asking "when will I feel like a doctor?", you can complete medical school and not feel like one even though legally and technically you are. The answer is actually quite simple "ACT LIKE ONE, BECOME ONE". The thing is, you need to establish what being a man is to you, what a man does, and then do those things. Personally, and especially with the whole "feeling like a doctor", my problem is that I had too many examples of what "being a doctor" was like. That's BAD, focus on one. You go out and see 50 guys in the street, they are all different, they all do different things, then anything you do is "male", but that doesn't help. My advice then is to think of someone who you consider to be "A man" and emulate them, do what they do, try to embrace how they think if you think it's worthy. Eventually you will become them.

True enough. We all get born with no idea how to act, learn first how to control ourselves and eventually to become adults, and overlaying that is always the urge to be the sort of person we really want to be, and not just a person. Everyone goes through that, not just our kind. Learning to be is a process, not some inborn gift all people have just because they are human, knowing what they are and how to be it from the get go.

What you said about the doctors I've heard in the arts as well. "When will I feel like an artist?" or "when will I feel like I'm actually a performer"? I've heard many times, and the answers from the pros is always the same - there is no "point" you cross and then suddenly bam, you're whatever it is you wanted to be and feel different about it. You start doing something professionally or seriously then you are it. Even if you feel like a fraud at the time, or a newbie or a lost cause, so long as you are trying and doing then you are. One day, probably long after you've stopped worrying about it it might occur to you again and you'll know you are already that, which happened with me in my job. One day I was doing a few odd jobs for people and thinking I wasn't really much of anything, stopped thinking/worrying about it and just got on with doing it, and then a few years down the line there's no denying my job title. I am what I set out to be now, do it everyday like it's second nature. I suppose the same can be said of the maleness, and the task of leaving the old stuff behind and learning to be what you see yourself as.

It's fortunate in some ways that society isn't all that interested in seeing men's bodies, you don't have to show it off to have it judged to all comers - people generally are not interested in the contents of your pants or the contours of your body. Which is something about being male I appreciate. 

Thanks for the replies so far. It's good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this concept.

I see a lot of trans guys, especially on Tumblr and such, that emphatically declare "I'm a guy" even if they are pre-everything, and refuse to acknowledge that there is anything female about them, which I find kinda crazy. One of them even was completely dolled up in a dress and makeup with no binder, nothing, looked completely female and still was tagging the pic with "ftm" and stuff. I sometimes wonder how they can be so confident about their maleness even when they seem to be doing nothing "male" at all, and here I am, actually taking T and presenting as male 100% of the time (even if I don't pass, I still always wear men's clothing, etc), and yet -I'm- the one still doubting if I can say I'm male.

I guess it all boils down to: what does it really mean to be male? We can't say it's just a feeling. Because then it becomes meaningless, doesn't it? So far, my opinion is that it HAS to be a physical thing more than anything else. Because as we all know, there are no personality traits or behaviors that are 100% male or even masculine, and there are plenty of ultra-feminine acting men that still identify as male, or ultra-masculine women that identify as female.

I do think there are differences between male and female brains, but are those differences absolute?

I don't know, and if they're not, then it has to be about physicality more than anything else. We wouldn't transition if it wasn't about our appearance. If we really believed that male bodies and female bodies were the same (which would obviously be a delusion), then transition wouldn't even exist. Transgender PEOPLE wouldn't exist. Because a woman could act just as masculine as any man if she wants to, she could dress in men's clothing, she could take on the male gender role in society, etc...Being trans, then, HAS to be about our self-image of our bodies and faces.

Which sometimes helps to think about and sometimes not. Sometimes it helps me because I think, "Well, as long as my self-image of myself is as a man, I guess that means I'm a man." But other times, it really doesn't help, because I know that my current body is still more female than male and I wonder if I'll ever be satisfied with the degree of maleness I can obtain through hormones and surgeries.

I'm a perfectionist; I wish I wasn't, and I'm trying to work on that, but there are certainly times that I think: "What if I always have wide, feminine hips? What if everything looks male except that?" And it disgusts me to think of myself as looking in-between or looking ALMOST completely male but not perfectly so. If I don't or can't get bottom surgery as well, that would always be an issue, because then it'd be like I'm not going from female to male but female to intersex.

As far as the behavior goes, well, I do think I naturally act and think "like a man" most of the time. But there are other times when I, for whatever reason, "default" into how I used to feel and act as a female. I think it could be a hormonal thing. When will the estrogen permanently decrease to a cis male range? I haven't had my period for 4 months now, but I feel like I definitely still have competing hormones in my body and brain.

Quote from: Bacon on April 02, 2017, 07:11:47 PM
Thanks for the replies so far. It's good to know I'm not the only one that struggles with this concept.

I see a lot of trans guys, especially on Tumblr and such, that emphatically declare "I'm a guy" even if they are pre-everything, and refuse to acknowledge that there is anything female about them, which I find kinda crazy. One of them even was completely dolled up in a dress and makeup with no binder, nothing, looked completely female and still was tagging the pic with "ftm" and stuff. I sometimes wonder how they can be so confident about their maleness even when they seem to be doing nothing "male" at all, and here I am, actually taking T and presenting as male 100% of the time (even if I don't pass, I still always wear men's clothing, etc), and yet -I'm- the one still doubting if I can say I'm male.

Another question is - does it matter if they do? Or should it matter to you? We are all doing this for ourselves, not for anyone else. After all

Quotewhat does it really mean to be male?

Is a hardcore metaphysical question because even science can't answer it - because there are people born we can't actually define as male or female with our insufficient criteria.

But evidently sex isn't just chromosomes, or just hormones, or just brain structure, or just body. It's all of them at once, all interacting and creating outcomes and feedback loops. It's not just a feeling but it's hormonal, it's psychological, it's physical and social. The brain affects the body and the body affects the brain.

QuoteI'm a perfectionist;

This is one area we'll never achieve perfection in. Can anybody? What is a perfect male or a perfect female? They don't exist, except in the eye of the beholder. Sure, you can fixate on the "perfect physical specimen" but none of us will ever be one of those.

QuoteI wish I wasn't, and I'm trying to work on that, but there are certainly times that I think: "What if I always have wide, feminine hips? What if everything looks male except that?" And it disgusts me to think of myself as looking in-between or looking ALMOST completely male but not perfectly so. If I don't or can't get bottom surgery as well, that would always be an issue, because then it'd be like I'm not going from female to male but female to intersex.

I get you. But you're just gonna have to deal with that, somehow, in some way... deal with not being 100% as you want. Cis people can and do exhibit similar thoughts about the sort of body they would want and people usually do wish some part of themselves was better in some way, nothing odd or pathological about wanting to perfect, we all want it. But of course most people accept their faults rather than beat themselves up endlessly over them. I dunno about you, but I would rather go on this journey with its uncertainty and risk than live my life as something that brought nothing but misery. If I don't "find" what I want in the end, least I tried. Better than doing nothing about feeling lousy, for fear of not being absolute, isn't it.

QuoteAs far as the behavior goes, well, I do think I naturally act and think "like a man" most of the time. But there are other times when I, for whatever reason, "default" into how I used to feel and act as a female. I think it could be a hormonal thing. When will the estrogen permanently decrease to a cis male range? I haven't had my period for 4 months now, but I feel like I definitely still have competing hormones in my body and brain.

T will cause your female organs to shut down so long as you keep taking it. So they should stop production of estrogen. The body knows what levels of hormones are coming in from the outside, and if the amount is sufficient, it will cease making its own.

No one likes themselves or feels comfortable/validated/certain 100% of the time. No one.
My gorgeous fit, curvy fiancée thinks her butt is flat. She also really contemplated getting breast implants for the longest time (thankfully, she opted out) and has ongoing issues socializing normally with other females.
Last year she got invited to this 'Galentine's' thing by one of her girlfriends. It was essentially a ton of women getting together and validating the ever loving **** out of one another (even if they didn't know one another...?). She ended up getting a card from one of them that said something god-awful (YOU were destined to be amazing and you have GORGEOUS EYES! - from one of them she didn't know) and she said her insides lurched because it felt so artificial. I remember her coming home and telling me she felt so isolated, annoyed by all the fakeness and frustrated with women in general to the point where she barely felt female herself.
But you know what? She's definitely cisgender and (I'd imagine) not very different from a lot of other women.

As others have said, there are a lot of men that feel the same way in regards to male socialization and not feeling 'male' enough. Your reasons for feeling that way may be different but the end result is the same. It's a tale as old as time and not in any way exclusive to transgender individuals.
We're really not as far removed as we sometimes tend to think.

If you asked me "do you feel male", I couldn't tell ya. I'm happy being male, and that feels right, and being female doesn't, and that takes it practically out of my hands. I don't know what my chromosomes look like but if they're just XX, who cares? The body needs a bit more time on T and I'm gonna put myself up for surgery referral next month, a bridge to cross when we get there. I won't pretend T doesn't make a huge difference in so many ways though. Thin down, then build your upper body. Whatever your bones are doing, this helps.

Such a difficult question to answer, "where does confidence come from" when it comes to something you either think you have experience in, or don't. I guess you just have to believe in yourself and stop second guessing. ALL of my confidence came from that, initially. Because I had none, and nobody to validate me. Had to build from the ground up towards whatever it was I wanted to be, completely alone. Even though it can come from "nothing", allow it and it will afford the opportunity to take the chances and actions that lead to real confidence. Then you don't need external validation all the time.

It sucks I can't articulate it better, and I honestly can't say where my faith derives from, but imagination and determination has its place here. No point worrying about the "absolutes" and things like your bones, and things you can do nothing about. All the power in this comes from another place. And from hormones. I do know what you mean, because I always want to be right and rarely risk being wrong, even conceptually. But when it comes to this... I thought hard about it and for a long time (my whole life I suppose, ongoing) and the final score is that the only thing that matters is what drives you and keeps you getting up out of bed tomorrow. In my case the biological 'facts' aren't enough, they don't know enough and I don't have time to waste hanging around for them to study it to tell me something. I feel a hell of a lot better with 'male blood' in my veins, as it were, on T... and that alone justifies everything I've done if you knew the physical pain that came before it. Everything you said are understandable legitimate concerns - but you're basing some of your ideas on stereotypes that leave a lot of people, not just us, poorly defined.

Quick example, my other half is a 100% legit cis dude with all his functioning bits, yet he's smaller than me, far less muscular and can't seem to build it up to my level, he's got almost zero body hair above his legs, he's extremely lithe... almost feminine in his bone structure, he's quiet and generally will never confront anyone, even if they're screwing him over. His first reaction if there's some sort of disturbance outside is to look at me for what to do, and if anyone has to take point and defend the place it's invariably me because those without the temperament for it don't tend to step up. I do have the temperament and experience, though, and I'm fine with it. In fact I wouldn't rely on anybody else to defend me or my place. If anything needs fixing round here, it'll be me doing it. I have the experience, carpentry, DIY general fixing of things... he doesn't. If anyone gets upset by confrontation, it's him, I tend to like it too much. Etc. etc. One of us was born XY and one probably wasn't but it makes little difference. One of these two has the male "role" and typical temperament come to them naturally regardless, the other one doesn't. But he's the more authentic male, right? He'd probably like to think so too. Maybe he is, but it's meaningless now. Soon it may be impossible to tell from looking who is. Will it matter then?

How you feel about your anatomy... well yeah, that's a tough one. I'd be lying if I said it was easy to deal with. But imo it's no worse than dealing with the female anatomy, which is so much fun I never even want to use it. Things may actually improve.
 

You seem like a very wise man, Kylo.  I've enjoyed reading your contributions to this discussion.  Plus, you seem to be a fellow Star Wars fan, so thumbs up! 

I just wanted to react to something Bacon said earlier, about anatomical females who are "pre-everything" still feeling a conviction that they're guys.  I happen to be pre-everything, and, in fact, am wearing a dress right now.  (What?! I have one and it's comfortable.)  I'm still pretty convinced that I qualify as male.  If I weren't, I wouldn't be seriously contemplating the pain and expense of transitioning. 

Of course, that begs the question, what makes me feel male?  I'm not entirely sure I have a good answer.  I could give a nebulous reply about "personal energy," and say that groups of guys seem to accept me as one of them (after a shorter or longer period of confusion), while groups of women tend to be polite but a bit distant with me, as if I were an outsider.  I could say that even as a preschooler, I liked "boy things," worshiped male heroes, and tried to convince my parents to call me by a boy's name.  (Being good people, they did it, but not in public.)  I could talk about a lifetime of gender dysphoria, and feeling depressed because while I felt truly myself in my dreams, I woke up every morning in a female body that seemed completely wrong for me. 

I suppose I could probably get by without physically transitioning at all, so long as I completely let go of all feelings of obligation to cram myself into others' expectations of a woman.  My therapist wants me to consider that option, actually.  But I really hate having tits, and always have.  I want them gone.  So I'll do what I have to do to at least have top surgery.

I think the key to getting rid of impostor feelings is to like and accept whatever it is you are, whether or not that's "male enough" for anybody else.   

Quote from: The Flying Lemur on April 03, 2017, 02:52:04 PM
You seem like a very wise man, Kylo.  I've enjoyed reading your contributions to this discussion.  Plus, you seem to be a fellow Star Wars fan, so thumbs up! 

Thank you. Indeed, a big Star Wars fan here.

QuoteI just wanted to react to something Bacon said earlier, about anatomical females who are "pre-everything" still feeling a conviction that they're guys.  I happen to be pre-everything, and, in fact, am wearing a dress right now.  (What?! I have one and it's comfortable.)  I'm still pretty convinced that I qualify as male.  If I weren't, I wouldn't be seriously contemplating the pain and expense of transitioning. 

People forget that it's only in this century that male and female casual wear really started to look very different, like suits and dresses. Historically in a lot of places, clothes for both genders weren't all that different, things like togas/pallas and kimonos/yutaka etc. had minimal differences. The idea of dress-like clothes on guys doesn't seem that weird to me, been to places where the men wear long dress-like outfits all the time. I suppose - I'll admit - that when I had to wear dresses as a kid, they were not uncomfortable to wear, in fact, more comfortable in many ways than pants. The problem came ironically when I wore them later that I felt very bizarre in them - very much "on display" and for whatever reason personally felt I must have looked ridiculous. I was told I didn't - but I mentally pictured a grizzly wearing a tutu and that was that, never again, lol. For those who don't mind or don't have a problem with it, more power to them.

QuoteI suppose I could probably get by without physically transitioning at all, so long as I completely let go of all feelings of obligation to cram myself into others' expectations of a woman.  My therapist wants me to consider that option, actually.  But I really hate having tits, and always have.  I want them gone.  So I'll do what I have to do to at least have top surgery.

I think the key to getting rid of impostor feelings is to like and accept whatever it is you are, whether or not that's "male enough" for anybody else.

It's very possible to live like that - I did before deciding to take the HRT and the surgery, and I guess besides being considered a little odd, nobody bothered me for it. As you say, getting rid of the chest is an imperative for me as well, although I would say taking T makes a big difference if you are feeling inhibited by anxiety or emotional responses (after some experimentation I would say female hormonal levels lead to a state of being generally "higher strung", and for some of us to be rid of that is a great relief).

Quote from: The Flying Lemur on April 03, 2017, 02:52:04 PM
I just wanted to react to something Bacon said earlier, about anatomical females who are "pre-everything" still feeling a conviction that they're guys.  I happen to be pre-everything, and, in fact, am wearing a dress right now.  (What?! I have one and it's comfortable.)  I'm still pretty convinced that I qualify as male.  If I weren't, I wouldn't be seriously contemplating the pain and expense of transitioning. 

There's a difference between wanting to be a guy and actually being one though, which is kind of my whole point. As you are now, you wouldn't qualify for any male-specific activities/clubs or be treated as a guy by 99% of society.

QuoteOf course, that begs the question, what makes me feel male?  I'm not entirely sure I have a good answer.  I could give a nebulous reply about "personal energy," and say that groups of guys seem to accept me as one of them (after a shorter or longer period of confusion), while groups of women tend to be polite but a bit distant with me, as if I were an outsider.

Same thing could be said for many masculine women though.

QuoteI could say that even as a preschooler, I liked "boy things,"

Same thing could be said for many masculine women.

Quoteworshiped male heroes

See above.

Quoteand tried to convince my parents to call me by a boy's name.

See above.

QuoteI could talk about a lifetime of gender dysphoria, and feeling depressed because while I felt truly myself in my dreams, I woke up every morning in a female body that seemed completely wrong for me.

I suppose I could probably get by without physically transitioning at all, so long as I completely let go of all feelings of obligation to cram myself into others' expectations of a woman.  My therapist wants me to consider that option, actually.  But I really hate having tits, and always have.  I want them gone.  So I'll do what I have to do to at least have top surgery.

This to me at least suggests that you're trans, but again, there must be a difference between wanting to be something and actually being something.

For example, let's say I want to be a famous musician. I could say that musicians seem to get along well with me and invite me into their inner circle. That as a preschooler, I gravitated toward musical activities. That I worshipped rock stars. That I would have dreams of myself playing huge, sold-out shows. Etc.

Does all that make me a famous musician? Nope. Obviously not. It just means that I want to be one. There are certain criteria that I'd have to meet to be considered a famous musician: I'd have to actually sell records and be popular enough that many people know my name. Since I don't meet those criteria, I can't in good conscience say I'm a famous musician, and if I did, I'd be considered totally delusional.

Why is it that gender is different?

All definitions of "male" are ones that we cannot claim:

"Male, which is applied to plants and animals as well as to human beings, is a biological or physiological descriptor, classifying individuals on the basis of their potential or actual ability to inseminate in bisexual reproduction."

"A person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence."

"An organism of the sex that normally produces a sperm cell or male gamete."

We have no claim to any of these...

Now maybe it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, and we should all just say "screw it" and do whatever we want, because the world is absurd and will end in another few billion years anyway. But that doesn't really make it easier for me to do the mental gymnastics required to arrive at the conclusion that I already -am- male or that I ever truly will be.

So maybe I'll have to settle for something else. Like acknowledging that I'm a woman that, for whatever reason, would rather look like and live as a man even if I'm not one. But this would probably lead to the same feelings of being a fraud. Being thought to be something by others and by society that isn't reality.

Well we can only draw from our personal experiences to try to get a handle on this. Let's look at it from another perspective. What makes me not a woman? What makes you not a woman?

What makes me not a woman - I can only offer - is that I have no intuitive understanding of women or any of their apparent habits and desires. I understand them now, I should think, but only from an outside perspective on why they tend to do the things they tend to do. I don't feel what they do, especially when it comes to their feelings toward other women, their often instinctive bonding with them, their feelings toward children, toward men, or childbirth, female body parts, dressing up, toward risk and personal safety, and so on. The way they see the world - from every cis woman that I have talked to and gathered this collective picture from - is apparently not the way I see it. The way I see it has much more in common with the way most men I know see it.

It's not just an opinion, however. There are things my body can do that I won't allow it to do, because of severe discomfort with these things. A lot of gut inhibitions. A lot of problems. Strict repression of emotional response. Abuse of hormones to eliminate the cycle. Thoughts about cutting female things off. I wouldn't get close to anyone for many years. I wouldn't tolerate the idea of starting a family or birthing a child. This is not normal - this is not something my female acquaintances suffer from, but it has much in common with how my male acquaintances view things like sex, menses, their anatomy, pregnancy and childbirth. It wasn't influenced by the men or the women, as I looked into their opinions on it many years later. . . these feelings were present from early adolescence and I mostly grew up without input from other people on any of it.

So what is this thing I am? It looked like a female but it was sexually and socially paralyzed; it couldn't be one, it couldn't operate like one or reproduce itself. It did not "work" as a female. The severity of the problem was obvious - I would never live anything close to a normal life unless this was changed to the opposite sex. I suppose you could view it as a defunct female. A deformed male. A hybrid. Whichever.

But if someone were to come up to me and say "you are a female", I would laugh. Hard. Because even if it looked that way, there was very little about me that would demonstrate it, and even less that would allow me to function as one. If I am a female, then I'm a complete failure - an evolutionary write-off, a genetic dead end, one of nature's little mistakes... since I'm compelled to avoid fulfilling my evolutionary and biological function as one. Science might declare it so, but science doesn't have answers to everything yet. It doesn't even know exactly what we are or how we come to be. And I used to be a biologist.

I used to be very black and white about things to try to orient myself. I wasted a lot of energy on it.

QuoteBeing thought to be something by others and by society that isn't reality.

Don't forget the mental life is also reality. It affects your life, it is real. There is the you that the world objectively sees, and the fact that inside your head, that isn't what you are. You give more power to the objective notion of reality, but what's inside your head is equally powerful, often the difference between a person choosing life or death is their mental reality - even if it's not to be seen and cannot be touched.

Define yourself however it makes you feel best. But it sounds like whichever way you go with that sort of definition, you're going to feel discontent or inadequate. How will that serve you?

Darn Kylo, you are a handsome looking man

*massive hug*

(sorry to derail)

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on April 03, 2017, 06:43:10 PM
Darn Kylo, you are a handsome looking man

*massive hug*

(sorry to derail)

Oh my, that's not me. 

*blushes with embarrsment* *crap eating grin on* *sweating bullets*

Oooops