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Bio Identical progesterone question

Started by link5019, April 19, 2017, 03:52:29 PM

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link5019

So with Bio Identical progesterone, what are it's effects on your E and T levels? I know I was on a lower dose of P and my T level was still at 7ng/dl, and then the doctor upped the dose, but I've been wondering if P can actually hinder breast growth and the effectiveness of E as well, or if I'm just over thinking and being silly?






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Harley Quinn

Progesterone inhibits Estrogen but makes your Estrogen receptors more sensitive. 6 one way half dozen the other. Estrogen works similar on Progesterone.
At what point did my life go Looney Tunes? How did it happen? Who's to blame?... Batman, that's who. Batman! It's always been Batman! Ruining my life, spoiling my fun! >:-)
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link5019

Quote from: Harley Quinn on April 19, 2017, 04:37:49 PM
Progesterone inhibits Estrogen but makes your Estrogen receptors more sensitive. 6 one way half dozen the other. Estrogen works similar on Progesterone.

So it inhibits estrogen, but helps estrogen? so like if you have 12 receptors, 6 go one way, 6 go the other way, but half of those are more sensitive which means that it takes less to achieve the same results? I'm not sure If I'm understanding that right.






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Harley Quinn

The pubmed articles read in circles like that. It would take a smarter person than me to understand it all... but estrogen develops milk ducts and progesterone develops milk glands so you have to have it if you want to fully develop. Or so I deduced... proofs in the pudding, if you like what it's doing for you continue. If not, reduce or stop. But hard to tell unless you give it a bit of time.
At what point did my life go Looney Tunes? How did it happen? Who's to blame?... Batman, that's who. Batman! It's always been Batman! Ruining my life, spoiling my fun! >:-)
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Dani

I can not get a straight answer either.

Some Endocrinologists prescribe Progesterone and others do not think it is necessary.

Both treatments are effective in feminization.
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KayXo

Progesterone reduces the number of estrogen receptors. This is well established. What this means is tissues become LESS SENSITIVE to estrogen as a result.

Progesterone also increases the enzyme which converts estradiol (the strongest of the estrogens found in the human body) to estrone (the second strongest, but weaker in about 12x than estradiol). What this means is you have less of the strongest estrogen circulating in your tissues.

Both of the above mechanisms are ways in which progesterone exerts anti-estrogenic effects. But, progesterone also, and this is unequivocally established by studies, stimulates milk glands (lobules, alveoli) while estrogen stimulates ducts and ductal branching, those things that help milk circulate all the way to the nipples. They work together to help prepare for lactation.

A few studies have found that estrogen alone increases breast growth but the addition of progesterone limits this growth or stops it. Others have noted that greatest breast growth during a woman's menstrual cycle is during the luteal phase, when progesterone and estrogen levels are high.

Now, as far as feeling good or bad on progesterone, more studies have found progesterone to have an adverse effect on physical and psychological symptoms than not BUT the ways in which this conclusion was reached can be questioned. For instance, in those postmenopausal women given estrogen, was the progesterone dose much too high relative to that of estrogen, typically a weak dose. Very well possible. Other studies looked at levels of estrogen in women relative to progesterone and often found levels of progesterone to be lower or estradiol levels to be higher in those women who experienced PMS. This suggests an imbalance in estrogen relative to progesterone. In other words, too much estrogen relative to progesterone. But, then again, studies have tried giving women with PMS more progesterone during that time with very few positive results. The only somewhat encouraging results were with oral progesterone and this could well be due to the higher levels of sedative neurosteroids resulting from oral intake that make some of us giddy and "high". On the other hand, reduce the concentration of those neurosteroids and some women feel better.

Results seem to be all over the place and I'm still researching this matter, trying to find some pattern somewhere. In the meantime, draw your own conclusions, give it a try with your doctor's consent and see what happens with YOU. You like it, health is good, boobs are growing, then all the better for you. Otherwise, dump it and continue with E. That simple. Trial and error.

I've taken progesterone for more than 3 years and still to this day, remain uncertain as to whether it's needed in my case.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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link5019

Quote from: KayXo on April 19, 2017, 07:56:37 PM
Progesterone reduces the number of estrogen receptors. This is well established. What this means is tissues become LESS SENSITIVE to estrogen as a result.

Progesterone also increases the enzyme which converts estradiol (the strongest of the estrogens found in the human body) to estrone (the second strongest, but weaker in about 12x than estradiol). What this means is you have less of the strongest estrogen circulating in your tissues.

Both of the above mechanisms are ways in which progesterone exerts anti-estrogenic effects. But, progesterone also, and this is unequivocally established by studies, stimulates milk glands (lobules, alveoli) while estrogen stimulates ducts and ductal branching, those things that help milk circulate all the way to the nipples. They work together to help prepare for lactation.

A few studies have found that estrogen alone increases breast growth but the addition of progesterone limits this growth or stops it. Others have noted that greatest breast growth during a woman's menstrual cycle is during the luteal phase, when progesterone and estrogen levels are high.

Now, as far as feeling good or bad on progesterone, more studies have found progesterone to have an adverse effect on physical and psychological symptoms than not BUT the ways in which this conclusion was reached can be questioned. For instance, in those postmenopausal women given estrogen, was the progesterone dose much too high relative to that of estrogen, typically a weak dose. Very well possible. Other studies looked at levels of estrogen in women relative to progesterone and often found levels of progesterone to be lower or estradiol levels to be higher in those women who experienced PMS. This suggests an imbalance in estrogen relative to progesterone. In other words, too much estrogen relative to progesterone. But, then again, studies have tried giving women with PMS more progesterone during that time with very few positive results. The only somewhat encouraging results were with oral progesterone and this could well be due to the higher levels of sedative neurosteroids resulting from oral intake that make some of us giddy and "high". On the other hand, reduce the concentration of those neurosteroids and some women feel better.

Results seem to be all over the place and I'm still researching this matter, trying to find some pattern somewhere. In the meantime, draw your own conclusions, give it a try with your doctor's consent and see what happens with YOU. You like it, health is good, boobs are growing, then all the better for you. Otherwise, dump it and continue with E. That simple. Trial and error.

I've taken progesterone for more than 3 years and still to this day, remain uncertain as to whether it's needed in my case.
I've been on it this point for 7 months and my breasts seem like they have rounded a little bit better with P, though I have noticed that there has been a slight slow down with the growing as well. When I talked with my doctor she told me that the effects of P on E is negligible and I have nothing to worry about so I should trust. I know P that isn't bio identical has  a bigger anti-estrogenic effect, but beyond that, I've never read about bio-P being anti-estrogenic. I was already very sensitive to E so it's probably not that big of a deal. My breasts are still growing pretty fast and nicely, so I don't know.






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AnonyMs

On a related topic, I got a new implant recently. After more than a year I'm still at 1100 pmol/L. He told me that taking progesterone slows down absorption of the implant. Something to do with less estrogen being used due to the progesterone, so less dissolved from the implant.
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link5019

Quote from: AnonyMs on April 20, 2017, 04:34:27 AM
On a related topic, I got a new implant recently. After more than a year I'm still at 1100 pmol/L. He told me that taking progesterone slows down absorption of the implant. Something to do with less estrogen being used due to the progesterone, so less dissolved from the implant.

That sounnds like it makes your E levels higher and makes them go a lot further in effectiveness o.o






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AnonyMs

I think it makes the E absorbed by the body less, and that keeps it higher for longer. I'm really impressed by how long the implants last now, and I think could have gone a few months longer quite easily. Maybe even another year if I'd waited for it to get down to what some doctors prescribe - I'd feel pretty bad by that point though.
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KayXo

Quote from: link5019 on April 20, 2017, 03:27:59 AMI know P that isn't bio identical has  a bigger anti-estrogenic effect, but beyond that, I've never read about bio-P being anti-estrogenic.

As I explained above, P is somewhat anti-estrogenic, this is also why it is taken by postmenopausal women with a uterus because it counteracts estrogen's proliferative effects on the uterus. Other progestogens are also, while some may even be somewhat estrogenic. It depends on the type of progestogen.
I am not a medical doctor, nor a scientist - opinions expressed by me on the subject of HRT are merely based on my own review of some of the scientific literature over the last decade or so, on anecdotal evidence from women in various discussion forums that I have come across, and my personal experience

On HRT since early 2004
Post-op since late 2005
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link5019

Quote from: KayXo on April 20, 2017, 06:46:23 AM
As I explained above, P is somewhat anti-estrogenic, this is also why it is taken by postmenopausal women with a uterus because it counteracts estrogen's proliferative effects on the uterus. Other progestogens are also, while some may even be somewhat estrogenic. It depends on the type of progestogen.

KayXo, I guess the question is, is the effects of P that big of estrogen, since like it doesn't seem to reduce it that much. Because from what it sounds like, it's really not that big of an issue in transition since it really helps, and doesn't really hinder breast development, or really anything else






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RobynD

Although there is debate, the consensus in my opinion seems to be that bio-identical estrogen like prometrium (the one i take) is not androgenic and aids in breast maturation, which visually means rounder breasts and likely more mature looking nipples/areolas. In my case, both occurred.


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link5019

Quote from: RobynD on April 20, 2017, 12:10:54 PM
Although there is debate, the consensus in my opinion seems to be that bio-identical estrogen like prometrium (the one i take) is not androgenic and aids in breast maturation, which visually means rounder breasts and likely more mature looking nipples/areolas. In my case, both occurred.
Exactly! I'm on the generic version on Prometrium, and my boobs are more round and the areolas and nipples have looked a lot different over the past 7 months of being on P






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April_TO

I took bio identical progesterone (generic and branded) and unfortunately I did not like the results for me. I find that my overall well being especially the way I look at myself when I am on it doesn't look too good. It makes my skin too oily and my hair extra greasy. I am also gaining too much weight on P.

I am good with E and my GNRH agonist for now.
Nothing ventured nothing gained
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rikki88

My doctor was open to the p. She said it's not necessary but it could be added. She said there hasn't been enough research on transgendered women to say yes or no. Plus like everyone else says everyone is different some it might work for some it won't. For me it has increased my breast size and made them actually start to round.
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AnonyMs

I've been taking it for years and I'm still not sure if it does much. It definitely makes my breasts swell up when I take it,  but when I stop they shrink again. How much of it is permanent development I've no idea.

On the chance it does actually do something I'm not prepared to risk stopping, plus I do like how things feel when I'm on it.
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