So, I have an extremely strong transdar and I am able to spot even very feminine transgirls like this one very easily.
()

My brain automatically starts getting the vibe that something is off and so far I have been right every time. But my brain never even doubts a masculine or very tall cis woman(ex Lisa Leslie) for being trans. It just knows they are cis.

And so this ability of mine to spot transwoman so easily brings a lot of anxiety as I am myself trans too, almost as feminine as the girl from the above youtube video if not more. My goal is to be eventually in absolute stealth as I pass very well. However I am always anxious as I feel like there has to be a lot of people like myself who will pose danger to my passing regardless of how feminine or beautiful I become. Due to this stress/anxiety, my mind is becoming a bit comfortable with once in a while people knowing I am trans, however I also have a strong desire to be just seen as a female and not a trans one to the outside world. So in my mind people ever knowing about my transness is a failure of my transition.

Does anyone else share the same experience? If so how do you cope up with this?


Please also know that I am extremely proud of me being a transwoman and also have the highest level of respect for other transwomen(passing or not). Its just that I don't want the outside world to know about such as personal thing about me and also I don't have the emeotional/mental strength to withstand the special treatment that one receives sometimes due to other knowing about the trans status.

You just have to accept the fact that there will always be someone who will be able to out you. I transitioned and started HRT at age 12. I pass extremely well. Am I 100% passable? No. I don't think any transwoman ever is no matter how beautiful they are. That I know of I haven't been outed by a cis person.  But other trans women and some gay men are a different story. I believe that other transwomen are more attuned to other transwomen because they have faced many of the same issues.  I wouldn't let it stress you.

I have to ask, how did you get confirmation that you were right? If you asked and hypothetically they responded no, would you simply dismiss the idea?

I think that there is always going to be room for anyone to question the natal sex of another. It's human nature to use mental models to quickly and efficiently categorize everything we see in the world based on a generic template that is constantly being edited, checked, questioned, and adjusted without our ever knowing it.

I have friends of both genders who get misguided occasionally. Even for cis people, the same categorizing occurs, and you can't expect everyone, including yourself to be correct 100% of the time.

I also think pretty much everyone has experienced this from at least one side; misgendering someone or being misgendered by someone. My guess is that when that happens 99.9% of the time neither side is questioning "are they trans?" Or "do they think I'm trans?"  They just assume a mistake has been made and move on.

As to how to deal with it. If you do pass quite well, you can always decline to answer or simply answer no. (Lying is also human nature, the social lubricant that gets us through the day).

In this day and age there is raised transgender awareness , which of course makes it more likely you'll be questioned at some point... but so will tons of cis people. It's up to you if you want to confirm this.

We also live in an age where everyone has a digital paper trail. Can't do anything about that. There are situations that you'll have no choice in whether to divulge. My guess is that any background check for any job will show previous names/aliases.  Your medical providers will most likely need to know to some degree, especially if something goes wrong, your admitted to the hospital etc.

So while no one, even cis people are guaranteed to pass 200% of the time, you can live in stealth and simply be comfortable with the occasional someone suspecting, but never really knowing.

@Cimara. I think it is possible to pass 100% of the time for the very few.

See this Ted talk.


For me personally, in my adult life before transitioning I had constant male fail. I had to make huge efforts to be gendered as male, and quite often even when fully presenting as male with slacks, button up shirt, tie, facial hair etc. I would still get gendered as female.

Since transitioning I have even had multiple doctors with my full list of medications not have it compute I was trans. Even after just going over my meds, including AAs, estridiol and progesterone I have been asked if the reason for the hormones is birth control, when my last menstrual cycle was, and even after clarifying that I'm trans, being asked if I was m2f or f2m.

So yeah. It is possible, rare, but possible. 

In the end I'm just happy to finally be living as me, and the occasional misgendering that I get (the last being at a doctors office, a fellow patient called me pretty, and then switched to handsome as she thought I looked at her weird, which I did- due to a lazy eye, then quickly apologized.) I think that getting the occasional misgendered is simply part of living in a society as a human.


~Brooke~

I was wondering "How?" just like Brooke

The OP reminded me of a Youtube video my wife stumbled across by some transphobic guy where he "proved" to the viewers how just about high profile female was "A ->-bleeped-<-", including almost every actress it seems and even Kim Kardashian! If it wasn't so sad and very scary, it would have been funny

I saw that video. That guy was ->-bleeped-<- crazy. He thought everyone was trans. I love those YouTube videos on how to spot a "->-bleeped-<-". The pure stupidity of these people is hilarious. I would love to know what science some of the so called methods of detection are based on. Lol.

I think if you were more secure in your self then clocking people wouldn't seem so important. I never clock passable trans women because I'm generally just taking people at face value. I'd also question whether your clocking ability is as accurate as you think. For instance the one woman I'd guessed was trans a couple of years ago ultimately proved to be cis (not that I asked, she just at one point shared some family history that made it clear).

Quote from: Brooke on May 20, 2017, 01:38:23 AM
I have to ask, how did you get confirmation that you were right? If you asked and hypothetically they responded no, would you simply dismiss the idea?

I think that there is always going to be room for anyone to question the natal sex of another. It's human nature to use mental models to quickly and efficiently categorize everything we see in the world based on a generic template that is constantly being edited, checked, questioned, and adjusted without our ever knowing it.

I have friends of both genders who get misguided occasionally. Even for cis people, the same categorizing occurs, and you can't expect everyone, including yourself to be correct 100% of the time.

I also think pretty much everyone has experienced this from at least one side; misgendering someone or being misgendered by someone. My guess is that when that happens 99.9% of the time neither side is questioning "are they trans?" Or "do they think I'm trans?"  They just assume a mistake has been made and move on.

As to how to deal with it. If you do pass quite well, you can always decline to answer or simply answer no. (Lying is also human nature, the social lubricant that gets us through the day).

In this day and age there is raised transgender awareness , which of course makes it more likely you'll be questioned at some point... but so will tons of cis people. It's up to you if you want to confirm this.

We also live in an age where everyone has a digital paper trail. Can't do anything about that. There are situations that you'll have no choice in whether to divulge. My guess is that any background check for any job will show previous names/aliases.  Your medical providers will most likely need to know to some degree, especially if something goes wrong, your admitted to the hospital etc.

So while no one, even cis people are guaranteed to pass 200% of the time, you can live in stealth and simply be comfortable with the occasional someone suspecting, but never really knowing.

@Cimara. I think it is possible to pass 100% of the time for the very few.

See this Ted talk.


For me personally, in my adult life before transitioning I had constant male fail. I had to make huge efforts to be gendered as male, and quite often even when fully presenting as male with slacks, button up shirt, tie, facial hair etc. I would still get gendered as female.

Since transitioning I have even had multiple doctors with my full list of medications not have it compute I was trans. Even after just going over my meds, including AAs, estridiol and progesterone I have been asked if the reason for the hormones is birth control, when my last menstrual cycle was, and even after clarifying that I'm trans, being asked if I was m2f or f2m.

So yeah. It is possible, rare, but possible. 

In the end I'm just happy to finally be living as me, and the occasional misgendering that I get (the last being at a doctors office, a fellow patient called me pretty, and then switched to handsome as she thought I looked at her weird, which I did- due to a lazy eye, then quickly apologized.) I think that getting the occasional misgendered is simply part of living in a society as a human.


~Brooke~

Thanks for the response Brooke. Well I don't share the same experience.  I am of Asian origin but live in US and have family members that are both Asian and Caucasian. And I can tell no one ever will mistaken any of their gender in any circumstances. Back when I lived in Asia too(where women were very natural, no makeup, hair or any enhancements)
there was something very undeniably female about natal females which is extremely extremely rare in trans woman in Western world(exceptions apply to the ones in Asia as you will find a lot of transwoman that are totally like natal women)

I myself have never been misgendered or asked by anyone if I was trans in the last 4ish yrs. I have never disclosed about my trans status to my partners  in the last 3 yrs. I have gone to family dinners of some fellow trans friends as a cis woman and no one ever questioned anything. The only thing that prohibits on being completely spontaneous and anxiety free is people like myself

Quote from: JoanneB on May 20, 2017, 06:36:41 AM
I was wondering "How?" just like Brooke

The OP reminded me of a Youtube video my wife stumbled across by some transphobic guy where he "proved" to the viewers how just about high profile female was "A ->-bleeped-<-", including almost every actress it seems and even Kim Kardashian! If it wasn't so sad and very scary, it would have been funny

My Post mainly applies to US as where I live as many transwomen from the Asian, Central/South American Continent are totally undetectable.

How? In the case of very feminine girls like the one from the above youtube video, its subtle things in the face, body and headshape. Its extremely rare for most transgirls to have the right head to face ratio which ffs cant solve. So a lot(unless they transitioned very early and have the right genetics) that have had ffs will have individual feminine features on a skull that still may have masculine/boyish proportions.  In the case of the transgirl from the above youtube video, her body is very feminine/almost unquestionable, but her facial width/forehead shape/broadness, square shaped head are dead giveaways. Again those things dont make her look masculine at all but boyish.

Not sure If I had seen that youtube video, but can tell you no one in their right mind would question Kim being a natal female. 

Quote from: SadieBlake on May 20, 2017, 09:26:34 AM
I think if you were more secure in your self then clocking people wouldn't seem so important. I never clock passable trans women because I'm generally just taking people at face value. I'd also question whether your clocking ability is as accurate as you think. For instance the one woman I'd guessed was trans a couple of years ago ultimately proved to be cis (not that I asked, she just at one point shared some family history that made it clear).

Its not that I intentionally clock people or that I am putting everyone I see under the "trans or not trans" filter. It just happens naturally and I myself hate that I can sometimes even see through very feminine transgirls. 

It is very interesting how we are all on the same journey in so many regards and yet the experience can be so different, from person to person, and region to region. One of the reasons I love this forum. It's a constant reminder that my experience or the experiences of those close to me, trans or not, are not the same as everyone else, or even the generic story I tend to think of as a base for transitioning.

So given that you haven't been questioned in the past four years may I ask what besides your own transdar keeps pushing the thought and anxiety of passing to the forefront. Things I have seen in myself are just memories of conversations pre transition of on the flip side outing that I was male again and again- mostly due to the need to prove my own identity. My given name at birth was gender neutral which was a blessing and a curse given how my body developed.

One of my own questions for years has always been "what do others keep seeing that screams Female to the point that they ignore all the male cues?" I know I have androgynous features but I would not say that I had a feminine face. As you mentioned you see tall and/ or more masculine women and still see cis. I wonder if part of that identification has to do with the cis females life experience and expected gender roles that most transwomen simply miss out on.

Given that I would get ma'am about 80% of the time from strangers, and most of my early career was phone IT support, where I got ma'am around 95% of the time 8 hours a day 5 days a week for years on end I have to wonder if it was that lived experience of interacting with society in the female gender role for half my life that shaped enough of how I interact  that the male qualities are simply dismissed.

For all these years I mentioned I had typical male haircuts, albeit curly most of the time. Never got below the neck. No makeup ever, no purse or female accessories.

I also wonder if because of a disability, cerebral palsy which affects my life side's fine motor skills, that I never felt pressured to be hyper masculine. Never took an interest in sports as I couldn't be competitive in them, same for cars, etc. Maybe that start in life gave me, and society a pass on the expectation I fit into the typical male role.

Definitely a lot to think about and reflect on.


~Brooke~

Not sure when I will learn to shut up but.....
Till then. 😉

I guess that my reason for stealth, or not letting the world know that I am trans, is to not have to deal with the slight differences in the way that even the closest of my friends treat me. I don't advertise more than I hide if that makes sense. If someone knows it doesn't bother me it is just less stress on everyone, yes myself included, when it is not an issue because it's not on the table. Think of the things that might color someone's perception of people. Now ask yourself, how would you know? Just to be ridiculous, say someone stole the Christmas present that was delivered to you while it was sitting on your doorstep. How could you know by looking at them and would it change the way you viewed them if you did? Say they gave it back, tell you how sorry they were. Would you be able to look at them the same as you did before you knew, before they stole from you. Being trans is not hurting anyone, is not dangerous is not really effecting anyone negatively at all, but it still changes the way people see us and for most of us WE CAN'T HIDE IT. You would never know that you were talking to the person who stole the sweater from you, unless they were stupid enough to wear it. It doesn't seem fair but there is not much we can do about it. EXCEPT pass to the point that it is not an issue. This is why I hope to pass to that point. Not shame and not to hide who I am, but to start every human interaction on the same level as every other woman. What happens from there is up to me, but at least I won't have to fight a perception that has nothing to do with the quality of person that I am. That is what passing means to me.

With that in mind, how do I view the passibility ( is that even a word? ) of others? With great care and affection. Not because trans people are all awesome, I know that I am not, and not because you are all my "people". We all come from different walks of life, different joys and pains, but there is something about all of you that I understand. I know the fear of not passing even if it is fleeting for some. I have sat in your seat in that restaurant and wondered if the waitress/waiter can tell. Walked past that person that you did yesterday that looked at you in that peculiar way and wondered if they can tell. I have also been at a point where I knew, without a tiny bit of doubt, that I did not pass. I know how that feels. If I see someone who I think is trans but is very passable to the uninitiated or uninterested I think two thoughts. My not so kind thought; if she is cis we worry too much. Horrible, I know, feel free to judge me, I judge myself. Other thought; Oh My God! I am so happy for her! If I see someone who is not very passable I only wish that I could help. Wish that I could approach them and give them some pointers. Not on looks, passing is not about the looks in many cases.

Little interjection before I finish up. Things that I notice the most.  1) Take up less space. First interview I saw with Caitlyn Jenner she took up so much space my only thought, before I even knew who she was or what the interview was about, was how intimidating that girl was.   2) Never loom, we fit in not make room for ourselves.  3) Move from the hips, not the shoulders.   4) Loosen up. Fluid gestures more than tight ones. Those are the ones that I don't often hear people talk about but are so glaringly obvious.  The thing that I want to literally beg girls to do, we talk about this ALL the time, is work on the voice. This one thing alone will change everything and it is the one thing WE CAN ALL DO SOMETHING ABOUT. You don't need money, you don't need a letter from a shrink and we don't need hormones. If we don't have a physical injury we CAN make our voice passable or to the level that it won't out us. Interjection over.

I guess as much a passing means to me that I still know that it only takes one person to know for everyone to know. The possibility is always there, I just have to be okay with that. So if I can see a trans person and other people can see that I am trans? Well, okay. Gonna suck but okay.

Michelle

I guess I'm an odd one out.

I want passability, for my safety.  Being clocked by someone on the street has certain hazards.  They, or one of their companions once I am pointed out, may decide to take some action.  Like a straight-armed punch as they pass... 

That said, with my friends, with people I associate with every day, I am out.   They all know I am trans.  Many knew me before I came out.  By being out to them, I am not worried about someone outing me.  Everyone I regularly interact with already knows.  That takes care of the anxiety about friends and associates. 

This is not without drawbacks.  There are many who 'accept' me, but do not particularly want to associate with me.  As a transwoman whose orientation is lesbian, this means that there are a number of spaces where I am definitely tolerated but not accepted, that is, the regulars feel obligated to show how fair and open they are by allowing me in, but that's about it.  Interaction is minimal.

There's nothing really surprising about this.  It's just people being people again.

Therapy focused on anxiety issues may be your best bet.

What you are talking about looks very much like the usual obsessive/anxious mechanism.