I avoid posting much about my thought processes here in case I just seem like a big joke really, but I keep obsessing ove gender in a stupid way. And I don't know whether its just because of myself or because people keep calling me trans or referring to me as male as I start expressing myself more. Also one time I made a post about crying under my desk over a trans documentary while still crying under my desk and no-one cared.

I wanted to be a boy since I was a little kid, but desisted; fantasised about my life as a gay man (I'm bi btw) during puberty until I reminded myself to think of myself as the girl in relationships etc etc. When I think of my gender in my mind I just think of myself as a little boy all the time. I feel silly and incompetent amongst guys and awkard and other amongst girls... for example one of my female friends once told me she loved me like a brother and I didn't know what to do with that information.... And yeah I prefer to be referred to by male words than female words, the latter make me cringe. Wearing mens clothes all the time has made me feel the most human ever but I hate the way they hang on me. But I don't hate my body when I'm alone and naked at all. Sometimes I think I so badly need short hair but that my necks to skinny and my face is too round tho. It's my face tho, and its a good-looking face. And I've tried to bind but it hurts really badly (yeah the binders probably too small), besides I don't hate my boobs I just hate looking like a feminine woman running around in frumpy mens clothes.

I don't hate my body so why would I do anything to it? But I often want to be a boy, and I come back to trans stuff so much. Perhaps I have to accept being butch. Sometimes I hope maybe that girls stop thinking I'm weird and like their brother and start thinking like they like me and we can be close and I can have someone to call me their boyfriend even though it makes no sense it can be like our joke or soemthing. But that thought's not really about wanting a relationship, is it? Its about wanting someone to give me a moment of being a guy.

I'm fine but then one day I found myself hiding under my desk crying after seeing the documentary of a young trans boy who got to live his childhood like a boy and be accepted by boys without having to repeat to the boys "I'm not a girl, I'm a boy and I have a willy its just really small" (after having searched and found my clit or something).

Possibly I need to just... stop being so miserable these last two years and live my life normally.

When I'm here alone I hug my breasts to my knees and feel my body, it's fine and its whole, and I think about what a lost little boy I am and what I should do to grow up...

My question is like... what am I and what do I do about it? I don't really want to do anything about it... and I don't mean that necessarily just in a denail way but aslo in a, I really can't justify any medical intervention becausee my bod is perfectly okay way... but it keeps coming back round on me.

Oh, dear,  I can feel your pain and frustration rising off the page.  It seems like you have some gender dysphoria, if not body.  Do you have access to therapy services?  I believe strongly in the value of counseling. 

I know it can be nice to have a label to tell you what you are, but even without one, you are you and I believe that is beautiful.  I'm sorry you are hurting. 

I would suggest seeing a gender therapist.  Not necessarily to give you a label, but to help you figure out what (if anything) you need to do to make the frustration go away.

Seeing a gender therapist sounds like a good plan. Maybe also attending a trans support group or volunteer at an LGBT charity so that you can get out of your head a bit and know what it feels like to be seen and referred to as male. From your post you sound like you have mild body dysphoria as from what you described your discomfort is still regularly occurring even though you have breaks from it.  Do you think you might be nervous about making the decision to start T even though deep down you know that might help? For me I had doubts before starting T but I think I liked how familiar my discomfort around my body was; I knew what to expect from it. While when starting HRT it would be unknown to me how my body would develop.

Funnily I'm having doubts about my recent plans to have top surgery which is ridiculous as I've also wanted them gone. But I don't hate my chest; but I know I'd feel so much more comfortable with my body if my chest was flat. I think that surgery again is just an unknown thing; I haven't had to undergo that before and I like how familiar my body looks now even though it makes me unhappy.

Tom,

I'm also free associating.

I read through your post twice. You seem to clearly state that you think of yourself as a boy. The fact that you don't hate your face or body doesn't change that. It sounds like the problem put forth is that you feel silly, incompetent or awkward depending on with whom you are—and then the circle completes: you feel like a boy but your body doesn't match.

The post title question would thus seem to suggest uncertainty whether you should induce physical change toward the masculine.

It does sound like at least some girls you know seem to sense you as masculine even now (at face value "love you like a brother" would seem to also ring of respect and fondness.) All I myself can say is that in the conversation we had in another thread I also could only sense you as a boy. As an aside, I did enjoy that conversation.

If you are accepted as you are, is the need for change very urgent? From this post, your introduction, the other post you mentioned and the fact you are on this forum it would seem you certainly feel uncomfortable. Then is the discomfort so great that it constantly consumes your time and energy? You do say you always return to the desire to be a boy so probably it does.

Since in your last mention of feeling like a little boy you state you wonder what to do to grow up, one key word seems to be little. Is the emphasis more on 幼い in spirit, or the physical?

You certainly know it is possible to get a man's physique. If that's what you want, is it the risks and difficulties that keep you from pursuing that—or is it uncertainty whether the physical change is what you long for?

Again, I'm just rambling out the thoughts that you post brought up in me. I sometimes say more than I should. If I've done so now, please forgive me.

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 25, 2017, 06:25:18 PM
I wanted to be a boy since I was a little kid, but desisted; fantasised about my life as a gay man (I'm bi btw) during puberty until I reminded myself to think of myself as the girl in relationships etc etc. When I think of my gender in my mind I just think of myself as a little boy all the time.

I too wanted to be a boy since I was little. I too desisted because I had it bullied & beaten out of me. I too fantasised about being a gay man (I'm exclusively attracted to men and always have been) and I'm utterly delighted to say it is no longer just a fantasy for me. Not only did I think of myself as a boy since early childhood, but I even picked a name for myself & used that name when playing with the kids in my neighbourhood.

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 25, 2017, 06:25:18 PM
Wearing mens clothes all the time has made me feel the most human ever but I hate the way they hang on me. But I don't hate my body when I'm alone and naked at all....besides I don't hate my boobs I just hate looking like a feminine woman running around in frumpy mens clothes.

There are different types of dysphoria: social, physical, sexual etc. Not all trans people hate our bodies and we don't all have the same types of dysphoria, and we don't all have the same levels. For example, my main dysphoria was social: every time someone would refer to me as female it would feel like a slap in the face; I felt humiliated and demeaned, which made my everyday life very difficult. My secondary dysphoria was physical: specifically, I hated my chest & hips. Not only did they feel completely inappropriate, but they made my clothes hang in such a way that everything looked wrong. They also made me look female, which led to unwanted attention from straight men. And this is one of the more strange aspects of my particular dysphoria: I craved (and crave) physical attention from men, but straight men are into the very parts of my body that I hated so they made me feel really uncomfortable.  Which leads to the third type of dysphoria I mentioned: sexual. I'm not particularly fussed about that side of things. Whilst I lament my lack of the right equipment, I don't particularly mind the equipment I have and I'm quite happy to use it.

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 25, 2017, 06:25:18 PM
I don't hate my body so why would I do anything to it? But I often want to be a boy, and I come back to trans stuff so much. Perhaps I have to accept being butch. Sometimes I hope maybe that girls stop thinking I'm weird and like their brother and start thinking like they like me and we can be close and I can have someone to call me their boyfriend even though it makes no sense it can be like our joke or soemthing. But that thought's not really about wanting a relationship, is it? Its about wanting someone to give me a moment of being a guy.

Perhaps... or perhaps it's about wanting the right kind of relationship, in which you can feel fully like yourself? I'm still legally married to a straight guy and have been for 20 years. Being perceived and treated as a woman in that relationship never sat well with me and I ended up resenting him for it. It's only natural to want to be respected for who you are.

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 25, 2017, 06:25:18 PM
I'm fine but then one day I found myself hiding under my desk crying after seeing the documentary of a young trans boy who got to live his childhood like a boy and be accepted by boys without having to repeat to the boys "I'm not a girl, I'm a boy and I have a willy its just really small" (after having searched and found my clit or something).

Same thing happened to me, except I was sat at my desk rather than under it. The final straw that made me decide to transition was a time-lapse YouTube video of a young transitioner, showing him going from what looked like an average teenage girl to a smiling, fulfilled young man. I felt such an enormous sense of despair, because I knew at age 19 that I needed to transition but the surgical options then were woefully inadequate, so I stuffed myself back in the closet and tried to force myself to be female. Then I found myself aged 40 still feeling as horrible about myself as I had always done - if not even more so - watching a video of a happy young man who had done something about it when I should've done. I'm not getting any younger so I knew I had to do something about it before it's too late. So I did!

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 25, 2017, 06:25:18 PM
Possibly I need to just... stop being so miserable these last two years and live my life normally.

If it were that easy, none of us would transition; we'd just get over it. Sadly, it's not possible because dysphoria gets worse with time.

Quote from: TomTuttle on May 25, 2017, 06:25:18 PM
My question is like... what am I and what do I do about it? I don't really want to do anything about it... and I don't mean that necessarily just in a denail way but aslo in a, I really can't justify any medical intervention becausee my bod is perfectly okay way... but it keeps coming back round on me.

What are you? You're you. You're human. You're valuable. You're loved. You're one of us. You're trans.

What to do about it? As much or as little as you need to do to help yourself feel comfortable in your own skin. Change your name; change how you present; use hormones; have surgery. Any, all or none of the above. It's up to you; transition is a very personal thing and there is no one-size-fits-all approach to being trans.

But is your body perfectly ok? I doubt it, because as you say your clothes don't hang right. If your body was perfectly ok then your clothes would hang right and you'd think you're smokin' every time you see yourself in the mirror, right? So ask yourself why you feel so terrible about the way clothes hang on your so-called 'perfect' body: I don't think you genuinely believe it's as perfect as you are trying to convince yourself it is. Perfect for someone else, maybe. But perfect for you?

Okay I'm gonna do this in a few parts since I'm getting very confused as to what I want to say to some of the longer replies.

Quote from: Elis on May 26, 2017, 01:25:12 AM
Do you think you might be nervous about making the decision to start T even though deep down you know that might help? For me I had doubts before starting T but I think I liked how familiar my discomfort around my body was; I knew what to expect from it. While when starting HRT it would be unknown to me how my body would develop.

Yes it is very worrying to me how my body would develop on T. I see myself as one of those foolish people who would want to pick and choose changes like, I'd want a more masculine physique, jawline and neck perhaps but not some other things especially not bottom growth since I like to tell myself that my genitals are about as weird as everyone else and if I had growth they would be pretty uniquely weird. Recently I've been thinking I might go to the gym it'd make me appear a bit less soft.

Quote from: zirconia on May 26, 2017, 05:45:34 AM
If you are accepted as you are, is the need for change very urgent? From this post, your introduction, the other post you mentioned and the fact you are on this forum it would seem you certainly feel uncomfortable. Then is the discomfort so great that it constantly consumes your time and energy? You do say you always return to the desire to be a boy so probably it does.

I don't think it constantly consumes my time and energy. I think that I am prone to feel depressive on occasion recently but I don't think thats actually related... when i feel bad I usually think about the trans issue but the trans issue doesn't trigger anything which makes me wonder if I am just applying that as a reason, like "ooooh THIS is what's wrong with me", which I've done with some other things, and actually I think theres nothing wrong with me in any way, I just don't live my life properly like I know I should and I don't take responsiblity.

I suppose I do wish I got what the heck was wrong with me because I find it very hard to be close to people or see the point of my life tbh. But yeah, that's not necessarily a trans thing. I just start wondering if this would help? That's why I don't really beleive myself when I think these things.

Quote from: zirconia on May 26, 2017, 05:45:34 AM
Since in your last mention of feeling like a little boy you state you wonder what to do to grow up, one key word seems to be little. Is the emphasis more on 幼い in spirit, or the physical?

You certainly know it is possible to get a man's physique. If that's what you want, is it the risks and difficulties that keep you from pursuing that—or is it uncertainty whether the physical change is what you long for?

In spirit. I was always a happy kid people said... but I was always pathologically afraid of death since I was 5. But I thought I could beat it by doing something great. I was optimistic. I've realised that my life is just going forward like anyone else and I'm not acheiving great things or getting any happier than when I was 11/12 and literally no-one would dare talk to me other than to spit insults on me. My life is a lot better than that but last year I seemed to just give up and I don't see the point of anything. Now I just try and be proud if I organise myself at all but that's even more depressing - my standards are that low now. So I'm constantly in a mess and I don't know where I'm going and so I feel like I'm running around like a child in the city just doing stuff. And I'm constantly incompetent because I'm just not doing anything right.

Last year when I felt awful is also when I started to recconect with my kid self somehow. I went back to that place in my mind. And I decided I was just gonna dress how I wanted to dress now. I got out my dads old ties that I used to wear (he died when I was 5) as a symbol and started wearing them to school. My mum would grab me by them when I came home asking what I was trying to acheive dressing like this. So I basically applied to uni so I could go to the city and do whatever I wanted.

I suppose I've done very little. Always hiding inside because no-one liked me. I definitely don't feel like I have any normal teen experiences. And only in these last two years do I feel like I grew into mself at all. That's when I had pretty much all of my teen experiences, JUST before I turned 18, and I feel like I've been violently reborn. I'm like, at the stage most people are at at 14. So yeah, in spirit. (Though I have been hanging out with 24 year olds recently who keep forgetting I'm only 18 because they think I'm not immature... I think that's basically just because I'm not high school catty from what their saying)

Yeah I'm unsure whether I want the physical changes. I'm very unsure of that. I would also be scared that since I have consistently straight up lied to being anything but straight to my mother after she has continously questioned me directly that I would have to never talk to her again if I transitioned. But really, I dunno if I want all the changes.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on May 26, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
There are different types of dysphoria: social, physical, sexual etc. Not all trans people hate our bodies and we don't all have the same types of dysphoria, and we don't all have the same levels. For example, my main dysphoria was social: every time someone would refer to me as female it would feel like a slap in the face; I felt humiliated and demeaned, which made my everyday life very difficult. My secondary dysphoria was physical: specifically, I hated my chest & hips. Not only did they feel completely inappropriate, but they made my clothes hang in such a way that everything looked wrong. They also made me look female, which led to unwanted attention from straight men. And this is one of the more strange aspects of my particular dysphoria: I craved (and crave) physical attention from men, but straight men are into the very parts of my body that I hated so they made me feel really uncomfortable.  Which leads to the third type of dysphoria I mentioned: sexual. I'm not particularly fussed about that side of things. Whilst I lament my lack of the right equipment, I don't particularly mind the equipment I have and I'm quite happy to use it.

Yeah I feel like a lot of female gendered stuff people say is sort of demeaning if you're not a total stereotype anyway. So feminine and cute. Like "you're a young lady" I can't even help myself from saying "no, I'm not" at this point. I don't mean anything in particular by it other than that I hate the phrase and its always accompanied by someone trying to tell me how to act.

I don't particularly like how clothes hang on me. As I said though, I really do not mind being naked when alone. When with people that's different lol. I haven't tried.

I don't really have a problem with my parts sexually I don't think. I'm a virgin.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on May 26, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
Perhaps... or perhaps it's about wanting the right kind of relationship, in which you can feel fully like yourself? I'm still legally married to a straight guy and have been for 20 years. Being perceived and treated as a woman in that relationship never sat well with me and I ended up resenting him for it. It's only natural to want to be respected for who you are.

Yep, I would hate that. I think that's partly where my declining interest in guys has come from. Love guys from afar but as soon as we have any sort of thing the dynamic becomes so weird and I know I'm gonna end up being THE girl. Not even just a girl now but THE girl. So many heteronormative gender expectations.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on May 26, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
If it were that easy, none of us would transition; we'd just get over it. Sadly, it's not possible because dysphoria gets worse with time.

I meant more to get over my recent bouts of depression. Since as I said earlier I think I am often looking for soemthing to blame that on rather than pulling myself together.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on May 26, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
What are you? You're you. You're human. You're valuable. You're loved. You're one of us. You're trans.

What to do about it? As much or as little as you need to do to help yourself feel comfortable in your own skin. Change your name; change how you present; use hormones; have surgery. Any, all or none of the above. It's up to you; transition is a very personal thing and there is no one-size-fits-all approach to being trans.

Thank you for this.

Quote from: FTMDiaries on May 26, 2017, 07:16:41 AM
But is your body perfectly ok? I doubt it, because as you say your clothes don't hang right. If your body was perfectly ok then your clothes would hang right and you'd think you're smokin' every time you see yourself in the mirror, right? So ask yourself why you feel so terrible about the way clothes hang on your so-called 'perfect' body: I don't think you genuinely believe it's as perfect as you are trying to convince yourself it is. Perfect for someone else, maybe. But perfect for you?

I mean I don't think anyone ever thinks their smoking every time they see themselves. People socialised female are often over-critical of their appearance and people socialised male don't think they have any right to be beautiful sometimes. Sometimes I think I look amazing tbh. Tbh I can often feel pretty posotive about myself if I look at myself from the front. Its more when I catch myself in profile view and I'm like... oh yeah everything is misshapen. Generally catching myself in reflective surfaces when I don't intend to is not my favourite thing. Used to freak me out a lot as a kid as I tried to assert being a boy but realised I so obviously didn't look like one as I walked up the stairs by that big mirror we had... But when I get ready in the morning I look from the front and I make a lot of effort these days to make sure I look great. Tbh my "a lot of effort" compared to most girls is nothing but I used to barely ever look in mirrors at all so its a lot for me. But yeah I tried to do that and thats partly what lead to me buing more mens clothes, because I realised that putting in that extra effort and doing it for you can make you feel soooo much more confident walking down the road.

Tom,

The changes you specifically mention you'd like to see from testosterone are ones visible in social settings. You say you don't want bottom growth because it would bring unique weirdness. I guess it sounds like you're saying you feel weird enough now and don't want to feel or be seen as more so.

By gym making you look less soft do you mean more bulk or sharper angles?

When you say you don't live your life like you should and don't take responsibility, is that your own assessment?
If so, when things seem like that, I'd just like to suggest that feeling pride when you organize yourself shows acknowledgment that you're taking a step forward rather than setting a low standard. At times like that praise helps more than beratement.

Also, if you don't mind, what changed between when you were five and eleven, when no-one dared to talk to you? Was it connected to being a boy? Your father's ties and your mother's attitude when you wore them do sound pretty significant. It really does sound like you've had a rough time.

Sounds like you need more time to decide whether it's something you want or something you need.

Quote from: zirconia on May 26, 2017, 08:07:43 PM
Tom,

The changes you specifically mention you'd like to see from testosterone are ones visible in social settings. You say you don't want bottom growth because it would bring unique weirdness. I guess it sounds like you're saying you feel weird enough now and don't want to feel or be seen as more so.

By gym making you look less soft do you mean more bulk or sharper angles?

When you say you don't live your life like you should and don't take responsibility, is that your own assessment?
If so, when things seem like that, I'd just like to suggest that feeling pride when you organize yourself shows acknowledgment that you're taking a step forward rather than setting a low standard. At times like that praise helps more than beratement.

Also, if you don't mind, what changed between when you were five and eleven, when no-one dared to talk to you? Was it connected to being a boy? Your father's ties and your mother's attitude when you wore them do sound pretty significant. It really does sound like you've had a rough time.

Yes I do feel weird enough lol.

Well the thing that makes girls look soft is that there's usually more visible fat than muscle all over. I doubt I could get particularly bulky but if I could just become leaner and more composed of hard strong muscle I might feel more mascline and less ineffectual.

That's my own assessment. I know posotivity is the best way but sometimes I have to remind myself not to pathetically whine by reminding myself that its me not taking responsibility, not the world doing something to me, or something that's wrong with me. Its a willpower thing, not an essential thing.

Er... I don't think it was much to do with being a boy. Age 8 I changed schools and stopped shunning all girls. I was quite popular  amongst them really because I had much more exciting game ideas than most of them. Then went to another school for one year age 10 - not that exciting.  Though it might be noted that for the first time I didn't really hang out with boys at all there. This was this girl in the year below who wore trousers and had short hair and played with boys and I was mildly jealous of her but also disturbed by her. But age 11 is when you go to secondary school in England, so I went with a couple friends from the last school, but I think they decided I was irritating and not cool cos they just alienated me from everyone in our classes. But yeah I basically had no friends and it doens't take very long for everyone to notice and brand you the biggest loser, so I started hiding in the libary all the time and I didn't like to leave my house in case I saw someone from my school on the street. Not really to do with being a boy, though I suppose you could say I was just incompetent at adolescent girl things and that's what made me uncool.  I also found myself hiding a lot of interests from girls like video games and warhammer and things because I knew they thought that stuff was weird. Eventually I did make geeky guy friends who would talk about video games. My best friend ended up being this gay guy and we would write songs together. It worked out okay by the end of the 5 years of secondary school like that. The problem was with the gay guy tho that all of his friends were proper girls and they did not want to invite me to events to the point that I couldn't sit on their table at prom. So I was still the weirdo. That's why I only had teenage experiences in Sixth form college (16-18) which I went to a girls school for haha. That was a weird first year tho in the second year I sort of latched onto this girl who once told me she also wanted to be a boy as a little kid  (shes more feminine than me tho haha, but cutely tomboyish), and we had parties (yay) and lesbian drama (horrific and didn't help my mental state as my mum was getting increasingly freaked out about my "dykeyness" and causing me anxiety - they sort of made me feel outside again as the uberdyke (but I'm bi....) that can't be trusted with any of them).

Quote from: Kylo on May 26, 2017, 08:40:58 PM
Sounds like you need more time to decide whether it's something you want or something you need.

Yeah... I think its something I sorta want rather than something I need. Someone said earlier the fact that I'm on this forum obviously means something is wrongetc... but really, I find myself often looking to trans things online when I'm thinking about gender because there's little representation of anything else. Like I love youtube (well more I'm addicted to it than i actively love it) and theres a huge trans community on there. But not too many butch people about talking about that. Seems a lot of them either transition, or never talk about gender ever like its not even on thier mind. And there are just sooo few of them. So I'm here because where else would I be?

I want a boy life for my younger self. But I don't see any reason why I can't live my life on like this really... I think I'd have so much fun as a guy... but theres no reason why my life can't be better as a woman. Yeah I really don't need it.

Not needing it opens more peaceful paths than needing it. Anyway, I plan to follow this thread, should you want to use it as a sounding board again.