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Trying to understand things better

Started by Iliana.Found, May 30, 2017, 08:23:31 AM

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Iliana.Found

I read an earlier post about how some people believe that a cis-guy sleeping with a trans-girl is homosexual sex. This is also a discussion that I have had with a few friends that are very supportive, but are just curious as to how it isn't and I respect their curiosity. I in no way believe that it is homosexual sex because I know that I am female. However, the definition for homosexual sex does say "person sexually attracted to people of one's own sex". So I have this internal belief that it is not HS that I stand by 100%, but then there is this definition that says otherwise. And if sex has to do with the genitals that we were born with, then by definition it would be HS. Where am I wrong? Is it by definition HS?  Do definitions need to be changed to match the 21st century? That kind of seems like too simple of an answer. Any clarification would be great :) I would like to know because this is one argument I have a hard time getting people to understand.
"It seems we struggle for a lifetime to become whole. Few of us ever do ... Most of us end up going out the same way we came in -- kicking and screaming. Most of us don't have the strength -- or the conviction. Most of us don't want to face our fears."
― The Fountain
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RavenMoon

Your confusing "sex" and "gender." Technically a person's sex is determined by their reproductive organs. That's their primary sexual characteristics.

When it comes to transsexuals the lines between "straight" and "gay" become blurred. For instance, I was born a male and have always dated females. Now if I transition to female and still date females am I gay?

So I think the preferable terms are androphilic and gynephilic; i.e. You like masculinity or femininity. It doesn't then matter what their sexual organs are.

So while I'm only attracted to females, that does include trans women since they are feminine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androphilia_and_gynephilia

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karenk1959

Sexuality develops in utero at a different time than gender so there are many possibilities for what gender we believe we are and who we are attracted to. It is a more difficult question in regard to the cis-guy. Is he attracted to you because you appear as a woman outwardly or is he attracted to you because you are someone with a penis, or maybe its both? You can answer the question as to why you are attracted to a man with a penis. I would say that don't get caught up with labels. It doesn't really matter. I for one am a transgender woman who doesn't wish to transition. I have had multiple female partners. I am married to a woman. I have been attracted to and sexually excited by all of them. I also had a one year homosexual relationship at age 14, which I absolutely loved. I haven't been with a male since, but have homosexual fantasies a lot of the time, masturbate often to gay internet porn, and get extremely turned on by the beautiful male ballet dancers in tights(love going to the ballet). So, am I heterosexual because I have a penis and have been primarily with women, am I a lesbian mentally because I want to look just like my female sex partners, or am I bisexual? I don't care. I just fully enjoy sex. Most importantly is that the reason to have sex is to express love for your partner and not just orgasm.
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Iliana.Found

Quote from: RavenMoon on May 30, 2017, 08:31:14 AM
Your confusing "sex" and "gender." Technically a person's sex is determined by their reproductive organs. That's their primary sexual characteristics.

When it comes to transsexuals the lines between "straight" and "gay" become blurred. For instance, I was born a male and have always dated females. Now if I transition to female and still date females am I gay?

So I think the preferable terms are androphilic and gynephilic; i.e. You like masculinity or femininity. It doesn't then matter what their sexual organs are.

So while I'm only attracted to females, that does include trans women since they are feminine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androphilia_and_gynephilia

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Thank you for your response!

Wow! What a great reference :) This definitely helps clear up some of the confusion that I've had and I could def use it when explaining my sexuality to others. I believe that this topic confuses a lot of people and if I don't have an answer for them then they're like "See, must be gay sex then" :|

I do not believe that I am confusing gender and sex though. I stated that sex is based on your genitals at birth and that's what the homosexual definition uses when defining what it is to be homosexual.

And to your example, by the definition in the dictionary for Heterosexuality, since I was AMAB like yourself, then no; I'd be hetero still.

So I now believe that I would have to educate people on the more accurate representation of ones sexuality by introducing the terms androphilia and gynephilia. To me, these make much more sense and are much less confusing. You are a guy attracted to a trans-woman? Great you're gynephilic so not gay lol
"It seems we struggle for a lifetime to become whole. Few of us ever do ... Most of us end up going out the same way we came in -- kicking and screaming. Most of us don't have the strength -- or the conviction. Most of us don't want to face our fears."
― The Fountain
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Angélique LaCava

If you have been dating a guy and he plays with your born genitals I don't think it's gay because you both love eachother so you both want eachother to feel good no matter what. What's the point of sex if you can't orgasm?
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Iliana.Found

Quote from: karenk1959 on May 30, 2017, 09:01:00 AM
Sexuality develops in utero at a different time than gender so there are many possibilities for what gender we believe we are and who we are attracted to. It is a more difficult question in regard to the cis-guy. Is he attracted to you because you appear as a woman outwardly or is he attracted to you because you are someone with a penis, or maybe its both? You can answer the question as to why you are attracted to a man with a penis. I would say that don't get caught up with labels. It doesn't really matter. I for one am a transgender woman who doesn't wish to transition. I have had multiple female partners. I am married to a woman. I have been attracted to and sexually excited by all of them. I also had a one year homosexual relationship at age 14, which I absolutely loved. I haven't been with a male since, but have homosexual fantasies a lot of the time, masturbate often to gay internet porn, and get extremely turned on by the beautiful male ballet dancers in tights(love going to the ballet). So, am I heterosexual because I have a penis and have been primarily with women, am I a lesbian mentally because I want to look just like my female sex partners, or am I bisexual? I don't care. I just fully enjoy sex. Most importantly is that the reason to have sex is to express love for your partner and not just orgasm.

I understand completely :) I am not one for labels either really. However, society is and I like to have information for when people decide to argue things. I am attracted to whomever I find attractive lol Idc if they are male or female. If I am attracted to that human, then yay lol

"Is he attracted to you because you appear as a woman outwardly or is he attracted to you because you are someone with a penis, or maybe its both? "

This is the part that always got confused in my mind. That's why I am always thinking about it and brought it up to discuss :) I believe the above post by RavenMoon def helped with that part :)
"It seems we struggle for a lifetime to become whole. Few of us ever do ... Most of us end up going out the same way we came in -- kicking and screaming. Most of us don't have the strength -- or the conviction. Most of us don't want to face our fears."
― The Fountain
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Iliana.Found

Quote from: Angélique LaCava on May 30, 2017, 09:19:56 AM
If you have been dating a guy and he plays with your born genitals I don't think it's gay because you both love eachother so you both want eachother to feel good no matter what. What's the point of sex if you can't orgasm?

Simple and to the point  :D I love it! I actually am dating a cis-guy and we do love each other soooo "Nail on the Head" lol
"It seems we struggle for a lifetime to become whole. Few of us ever do ... Most of us end up going out the same way we came in -- kicking and screaming. Most of us don't have the strength -- or the conviction. Most of us don't want to face our fears."
― The Fountain
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Charlie Nicki

If we're talking about physical attraction, it's not gay at all. Guys are visual creatures, and if a cis guy is attracted to you while you look like a female, it doesn't really matter what's between your legs since they're attracted to the overall presentation (not the genitals which they can't even see). So that's pretty straight to me.

When it comes to the sex, there's a thing called "phallophilia" which is a sexual attraction towards penises. A lot of heterosexual self identified guys use this word to describe why they can be with a woman with a penis, and actually play with the penis. It's not about being with a man since that doesn't excite them, it's about the woman and the penis.

And finally, as Angelique said, when you really like someone you are capable of being a little bit more flexible when it comes to that. I, for example, am attracted to men and would definitely date a transman if I found him attractive. Can't lie, I would definitely miss the penis but if I really like the guy I can totally do it.
Latina :) I speak Spanish, English and a bit of Portuguese.
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Transdude

This crap gets way to aggravating for me. My girlfriend is mtf and as a couple we confuse the crap out of people who know we are trans. I have always been attracted to females. My gf is beautiful and feminine.  There isn't anything about her that could be perceived as male. I don't care that for now she still has a dick. I consider myself a hetero male. She only likes guys. She considers herself a hetero female. We love each other as a hetero male-female couple.  We don't give a flying crap what each other has between our legs.  Seems pretty simple. But people make it hard. My brother had a real hard time trying to figure out our relationship.  I was born female. So did the fact I love Alexandria technically make me a lesbian? No wait, she still has her package so even though she looks and acts female did that make me technically straight? Wait again, Im a dude now so does the fact she still has her package make me gay?  What about her?  I don't have a Dick so is she lesbian.  Since she has a package and I don't does that make her hetero? Or because I am a guy all except for a dick does that technically make her gay?  People start really overthinking trans relationships. I asked him if he considers me a guy. He said yes. I asked if he considers my girl a woman. He said yes. So I told him to just go with that as far as our relationship goes. Trans relationships aren't black and white and cis people need to realize that.
Lucas
Born 1990
Came out as trans 2003
Started T 2013
Met my gf late 2013
Top and facial surgery 2014
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roseana21

this whole debate is silly and only relevant to this current western society as we are the only society to have strict categories of gay and straight.....these categories are not objectively black and white real categories anymore than "beautiful" and "ugly" are...its subjective....I don't see me and my bf having sex as homosexual at all and I don't care what anyone says...regardless it doesn't matter as these are incomplete and subjective human made labels so people can think what they like...
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Annecy

Quote from: Transdude on May 30, 2017, 09:51:36 PM
"Trans relationships aren't black and white"
That's for sure :icon_exclaim::icon_exclaim::icon_exclaim:

Introducing non-CIS people into the whole "sexual orientation" "discussion"
introduces more than a few "variables" one could consider
when analyzing/evaluating the full specturm of human sexuality ~
way more variables (imo) than a forum post/response could address ...

(I wrote a blog about "preferences" ... a couple of years ago ...)
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Iliana.Found

I will just keep to the Androphilia and gynephilia description when someone is curious as to how it all works. By not making the genitals the focus point of the attraction, I believe that it will lessen the confusion. This is not a talking point that I had before and I think it is very useful. It pretty much sums up all of the responses to the initial post.

Quote from: roseana21 on May 30, 2017, 10:37:53 PM
this whole debate is silly and only relevant to this current western society as we are the only society to have strict categories of gay and straight.....these categories are not objectively black and white real categories anymore than "beautiful" and "ugly" are...its subjective....I don't see me and my bf having sex as homosexual at all and I don't care what anyone says...regardless it doesn't matter as these are incomplete and subjective human made labels so people can think what they like...

I actually don't find this debate to be silly at all and because I do live in a Western society, it is very relevant. Although I may not change someone's mind, I can at least do my best to educate them. I don't feel like "I am what I am" is a good first answer when someone is honestly curious about attraction to a transperson or any other person for that matter. Helping someone to see that it is not black and white is my whole point. By introducing new information to people, I believe that it may help them come to that conclusion at some point. Even if one person begins to take that perspective, then great! Don't get me wrong though, if someone still thinks it's gay well then that's on them and I know who I am and what I am :)
"It seems we struggle for a lifetime to become whole. Few of us ever do ... Most of us end up going out the same way we came in -- kicking and screaming. Most of us don't have the strength -- or the conviction. Most of us don't want to face our fears."
― The Fountain
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Annecy

imo ...
Those who say "sexuality" is ONLY ever a matter of GENDER ... are incorrect ...


There are some people for whom "sexual orientation"
is ONLY a matter of GENITALS; e.g.,
those who could/would "get intimate" ONLY with someone with a PENIS ...

There are some people for whom "sexual orientation"
is ONLY a matter of GENDER; e.g.,
those who could/would "get intimate" ONLY
with (to them) an attractive woman ... regardless of GENITALS ...
(imo ... GENITAL-indifference sounds very BiSexual ...)

There are plenty of people for whom "sexual orientation"
is a matter of both GENDER & GENITALS; e.g.,
those who could/would "get intimate" ONLY
with (to them) an attractive CIS genetic-female and/or a PostOp MtF ...

There are (maybe/probably) even more people
for whom "sexual orientation"
is a matter of not only both GENDER & GENITALS ... also DNA; e.g.,
those who could/would "get intimate" ONLY
with (to them) an attractive CIS genetic-female ...
(These people would (I suppose) be called "TransPhobic")

Also ...
someone (CIS or not) might attract heterosexual, bisexual & homosexual people ...
There are plenty of "->-bleeped-<-s" who are after PENIS
with varying motivations as to why they seek a non-CIS partner ...
Point is that the "sexuality" of both people
need not be the same ...


Definitly NOT "black&white" ... in any case ...
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Harley Quinn

I'll be honest, it comes up a lot during my "coming out" talks.  I don't really try to think about it as Gay, Straight, Bi, Poly, etc.. whatever.  It's far easier to say "I am attracted to ____", and leave it at that.  To really label it IS going to be a mouthful, and will all hinge on the views of how Trans is perceived by the people in the conversation.  Such in depth conversations are paralleled with Politics... Everyone is right in their own mind and refuse to be swayed.  Even under the guise of "being open minded" or "wanting to understand", it'll turn sour when you reach one of their steadfast beliefs in the conversation.  The ones that truly understand are the ones that need nothing further than "So you're attracted to _____".
At what point did my life go Looney Tunes? How did it happen? Who's to blame?... Batman, that's who. Batman! It's always been Batman! Ruining my life, spoiling my fun! >:-)
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Tessa James

People are so very hung up on what might be considered gay, lesbian or homosexual acts or feelings.  It is sometimes fun to throw a wrinkle into the situation.  Oh, that is sooo gay!

We might ask: So you are totally straight, right?  Never had a man touch your penis or a woman touch your vulva??  Next question:  So you have never touched yourself and/or masturbated? ???  Most people have explored themselves, masturbated and therefore know that a supposedly straight person can experience pleasure at their own hands.  Can you see yourself as attractive, sexy and desirable???  Oh dear, what might that suggest?

We can look at sex studies going back to Kinsey and find that large percentages of supposedly straight people have had some same sex experience.  Does any same sex act, dream or desire make one gay? Bi? Pan? Do these labels really help us to understand the depth, complexity and wonderful possibilities of intimate human contact?

What of the partners we have?   How might the world or individual see themselves?  Does our girlfriend, wife, boyfriend or husband instantly become gay since they still have sex with us?   I have been considered every part of the LGBTQ rainbow at one time or another and actually like being queer.  Perhaps the emphasis on parts rather than hearts remains part of our challenge in accepting ourselves and understanding our sexuality?
Open, out and evolving queer trans person forever with HRT support since March 13, 2013
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Michelle_P

I identify as female.

My presentation is consistently feminine.

I am very much attracted to women.

I cannot stand the thought of penetrative intercourse with a male.  There's no pleasure there, just flashbacks to the horrors I had to deal with growing up.  I very much doubt this can be 'cured.'

This by definition makes me a lesbian.  So, yeah, I'm gay.  I am what I am, and I don't care to change or hide any of this to make someone else more comfortable.  I used to pretend I was a straight male to make others more comfortable, and that was very unpleasant for me.  I'm happy the way I am now.

People are entitled to their own beliefs.  They are not entitled to their own facts.

If you are only happy putting others into a labeled box, I am a blue jean femme lesbian transwoman.  Deal with it.
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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Paige

I find this sort of discussion reminds me that there are lots of people with internal transphobia and/or homophobia.  If people weren't so hung up on what they believe society thinks is appropriate, they wouldn't need to ask these questions.  They would just be happy that two people (or more) love each other.   In the end how does this question being answered help the questioner, except maybe to satisfy their curiosity?

Take care,
Paige :)
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Michelle_P

Quote from: Paige on May 31, 2017, 04:08:28 PM
I find this sort of discussion reminds me that there are lots of people with internal transphobia and/or homophobia.  If people weren't so hung up on what they believe society thinks is appropriate, they wouldn't need to ask these questions.  They would just be happy that two people (or more) love each other.   In the end how does this question being answered help the questioner, except maybe to satisfy their curiosity?

Take care,
Paige :)

This topic and the original question are fundamentally just an artifact of a language providing a conceptual map that does not fully correspond to reality.  In my case, if genitalia really are the criteria, flipping a few ounces of tissue from an outie to an innie magically changes me from a straight heterosexual to a gay lesbian, with no alterations in my personality, behavior, or mental processes.

That strikes me as being amusingly simplistic.

The binary relationships implied by typical English usage reflect the cultural influences on our behavior, with the post-medieval Western European binary defined by the theocracy thoroughly embedded in our linguistic map, making thoughts about the actual continuums of sex, gender identity, gender presentation, and gender orientation very difficult to express.  That linguistic map with its intrinsic oversimplifications is what leads to silliness like bathroom laws and similar signs of non-understanding.
Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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RavenMoon

Quote from: karenk1959 on May 30, 2017, 09:01:00 AM
Sexuality develops in utero at a different time than gender so there are many possibilities for what gender we believe we are and who we are attracted to.

You are using the phrase "sexuality" but that means something different than your sex. Your sex is male or female. Sexuality is who you have sex with.

Your sex is actually determined right when the sperm meets the egg, as far as your chromosomes. But there's also the later stage where the mother exposes the embryo to androgen. Now this is where other, more secondary sexual characteristics develop. Humans are sexually dimorphic; males and females look different. But even here we often have overlap. You see men that look like women and vice versa. And this was from that exposure to androgen... or not. So it seems sometimes people kind of get stuck between one extreme or the other.  You have a little of this and a little of that.

And it appears also changes in the brain. The brain changes are more what decides your gender. And this shows in the trans people that always knew from an early age that they were the wrong sex.

But this gets complicated because gender is somewhat a social construct. But which came first? Why and when did women and men start to dress differently and wear their hair long or short?




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Michelle_P

The biological bias comes first. Cultural, and in particular "origin stories" and similar constructs that communicate evolving cultural gender concepts to subsequent generations evolved later.

Manners of dress and speech, hair, correct social behavior and similar items are cultural and often enforced by embellishments of the origin stories.

We know that there is an intrinsic element to gender identity from the accidental work of Dr John Money. He followed patients who through medical accidents following birth underwent involuntary gender reassignment. The patients were reassigned as a result of botched circumcisions and similar mishaps, and their parents were directed to raise the child entirely in the reassigned told. The patients were followed for ten years and Dr Money determined that they were adjusted to their assigned roles.

Dr Money published a paper claiming proof that gender roles were entirely learned. This was immediately accepted by certain parts of the feminist movement that felt this was a scientific proof of equality.  Gender as entirely a learned social role is still a common concept today in some circles.

A follow up on the patients in Dr Money's study, however, turned up some disturbing results.  A significant portion of the patients detransitioned in their teens with some displaying suicidal ideation.

The best known of these is David Reimer, raised as Brenda. This is often referred to as the John/Joan case. It ended badly.

When researched independently, Dr Money's work demonstrated an innate component to gender identity, with the involuntarily reassigned persons often exhibiting symptoms we are all too familiar with.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money


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Earth my body, water my blood, air my breath and fire my spirit.

My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
Electrolysis - Hours in The Chair: 238 (8.5 were preparing for GCS, five clearings); On estradiol patch June 2016; Full-time Oct 22, 2016; GCS Oct 20, 2017; FFS Aug 28, 2018; Stage 2 labiaplasty revision and BA Feb 26, 2019
Michelle's personal blog and biography
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