This is a question I have been ruminating over for quite a while.  I don't at present have the statistics (if any exist) to substantiate this plausibility, but this is how things have appeared to me, as well as to another close friend of mine who is also trans*.
I can say with some confidence that male privilege/power must play a role, but what other social/neurologic/cultural influences could also explain this pattern?

I suppose I am looking to start a discussion about this, and to get some educated opinions from people who may well have studied or thought about this themselves.
Feel free to comment if you have the same questions.  I am shy to talk and get my ideas out there, especially when I don't have someone to discuss them with!   

Good question. Wondered for a while too.

For me, one key factor should be social acceptance of gender atypicality. Historically, there has been more acceptance towards gender atypicality in AFAB individuals than towards AMAB individuals. While tomboyishness on girls had been tolerated to some degree, effeminacy on boys had been largely punished.

It is a very awkward space for AMAB to be in.

Unless one spells things out all the time, people are going to make assumptions, and they are not non-binary. People are going to assume that a non-binary AFAB is either a tomboy or a butch lesbian, based on her appearance and what they know about her current relationship.

People are going to assume a non-binary AMAB is a feminine gay guy, or else a non-passing trans woman...I have that issue really, there is no real equivalent to a tomboy, and really if one is attracted to men, being a feminine gay guy is more accepted by society currently. I personally am not, and am really attracted to cis-women,  and tried to find some non-binary identity that fit me for a long time, but also it's about their understanding. Even if I am non-binary on some level, I am not the textbook case, and am not good at explaining it. It's easier to explain that I am a trans woman that has some attachment to my birth gender than explaining the gender binary to people that take it for granted.

I've wondered about this too, and another thing that comes to mind is that, isn't it more common for amab people to be transsexual than for afab people, like then it's reversed? Correct me if I'm wrong, I've only heard that's the case over the years since I came out as ftm. But if that's so, I find it interesting if it is true that it's more common for afab to be non-binary, and the opposite with transsexualism.

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on May 29, 2017, 01:11:01 AM
It is a very awkward space for AMAB to be in.

Unless one spells things out all the time, people are going to make assumptions, and they are not non-binary. People are going to assume that a non-binary AFAB is either a tomboy or a butch lesbian, based on her appearance and what they know about her current relationship.

People are going to assume a non-binary AMAB is a feminine gay guy, or else a non-passing trans woman...I have that issue really, there is no real equivalent to a tomboy, and really if one is attracted to men, being a feminine gay guy is more accepted by society currently. I personally am not, and am really attracted to cis-women,  and tried to find some non-binary identity that fit me for a long time, but also it's about their understanding. Even if I am non-binary on some level, I am not the textbook case, and am not good at explaining it. It's easier to explain that I am a trans woman that has some attachment to my birth gender than explaining the gender binary to people that take it for granted.

I've definitely been asked if I was lesbian because I apparently dressed as butch to this person. It was awkward to say the least. The ignorance of people when it comes to the gender spectrum makes it harder to explain. A friend of mine didn't quite understand the difference between ftm and nonbinary. It's a fine line if you ask me so I wasn't mad at them for the confusion. I've noticed in general people want a quick one sentence explanation rather than actually listen for a few minutes.

Another explanation I've seen is that FAAB people are taught to be less assertive, to compromise more, so they don't "go all the way".

I also think that more FAAB than MAAB people have androgynous bodies to begin with. And that many MAAB people transition with horomones and then live as what one would call "non-binary" if they were FAAB.

Just some loose thoughts. I don't think there is one good explanation to this.

I think it's just a cultural thing. It's more acceptable for AFAB people to dress more masculine; but if an AAMAB person were to dress fem they'd stick out more; making them more noticeable and making people think there's more of them than AFAB nbs. Plus you seem to have more AFAB nbs on YouTube and tumblr; probably bcos they recieve less abuse and discrimination than an AMAB person.

Hi all,

I'm AMAB and most of what you all say applies to me. I stay below the radar because I don't want to be constantly explaining myself. I'm attracted to the feminine, doesn't have to be cis. I present a bit queer most of the time but i keep it subtle_ish. Jeggings with a male fleece for example. Blue nail polish if I'm feeling a bit bold but often just straight leg girl jeans.

Even in queer mode I'm almost always treated like a guy. People see what they expect to see and to some people at least my non-comforming presentation is invisible to them. I suspect there are loads of us but we stay below the radar for all the reasons outlined by others above. Closets feel safe and comfortable. One often has to reach a tipping point before working up the courage to leave. For this reason I think it will always be difficult to know the true statistics.

Interesting topic. I'm certain there are many more of us than are visible.
B

I go to an art school that has a large population of gender queer people and I can see a population imbalance. I'm one of two or three AMAB people that I know, but can't count how many AFAB people there are. Personally I'm not even publicly out and mostly for the reasons that have been stated so far that it's just easier to do gender non conforming things like what you wear or act if you are AFAB than AMAB.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What an interesting thread.  I am AMAB who has transitioned including GRS and presents mostly androgynously to femme.  My picture is pretty typical of how I look most of the time.  It interests me because I was "beat up" almost daily growing up for being a femboy and later for being sexually and gender expression ambiguous - queer.  That I can live as a woman yet present essentially as I always have speaks to the notion of AFAB tolerance for normative variability and the role rigidity for AMAB folk.

I think this is changing with time.  I will be going to the Pride celebration in Astoria OR this weekend and there are many queer folk who are clearly at neither end of the spectrum, but who are accepted and even celebrated.  It is good to be alive in, as Terry Pratchett declares, the century of the fruit bat. 

Peace,
JB

Because being an AFAB woman, not gonna lie, is hard.

You have societies against you, you have biology against you and there's the 2 reasons I hear the most from nb AFABs,  actually these are the most common causes of dysphoria anyway.

Some of them who decide to transition actually get away with these problems and many of them associate womanhood with traumatic experiences.

The strongly binaristic definition of 'masculinity' really doesn't help, where the training is to either be, or be not. And the male training is to try to be, even if you are not.
There isn't much discussion of anything, so the world is projected as absolutes, little compromise, or variation, and little tolerance as a result.
As such where the rules are so rigid there are gaps, and they allow folk to hide either in the gaps or in plain sight as a rigid advocate for 'maleness' - my feeling is that there is a significant AMAB non binary population that has yet to discover that they are on this spectrum.


Great topic btw!

Rowan

Quote from: Sno on July 22, 2017, 03:48:33 PM
The strongly binaristic definition of 'masculinity' really doesn't help, where the training is to either be, or be not. And the male training is to try to be, even if you are not.
There isn't much discussion of anything, so the world is projected as absolutes, little compromise, or variation, and little tolerance as a result.
.... - my feeling is that there is a significant AMAB non binary population that has yet to discover that they are on this spectrum.

Great topic and speaking from personal experience there has been little opportunity for non-binary MAAB to safely express our identity. While this may be generational, for many of us just dealing with dysphoria drove us to try harder to be binary males lest we were exposed as 'male frauds', had our sexuality challenged or face rejection and hostility from other MAAB. 

Perhaps if it were easier to present as andro, queer etc without attacks, invalidation etc then more folk would explore and express their identity.  For many of us, socialisation as MAAB did not provide us with the skills, verbal or emotional vocabulary, confidence or environment to understand and explore our gender.  As a result I was certainly more uncertain, felt more uncomfortable and was much slower in my discovery and journey than non binary friends who were FAAB.

I also agree with Sno that many MAAB have yet to develop the level of self awareness sufficient to understand their identity is more nuanced or less binary than they may have thought.  This again is likely to be generational and now that many more of us also understand that identifying as trans does not necessarily a binary outcome I think this is likely to continue to grow the number of folk who understand and declare themselves as non binary MAAB.

Safe travels

Aisla

There have been a lot of good opinions posted so far on this thread which I agree with. What rings most true is the socialization for AMAB individuals to "try harder" if something (even their gender) isn't working.

For the record, I was AMAB and now I identify as nonbinary.  I'm not certain if my gender was actually male at birth, but it could very well have been.  A medical condition transitioned me to nonbinary instead of "adult male", without my knowledge.  As said above, I just kept "trying harder".  Even after the original medical issue was addressed, my body and mind had already moved away from male.  I didn't realize what I was experiencing was gender dysphoria, because (as said in earlier posts) I didn't have the knowledge, and had difficulty communicating those feelings.  Only when I was researching transgender topics to be a better ally for a friend did I discover nonbinary as a term.  I had a moment of clarity, which was downright euphoric.  My gender expression is still very masculine, and I still feel comfortable with he/him/his as pronouns.

I'm now identifying as nonbinary, and my search for more AMAB nonbinary resources led me here.  Maybe I'm going to have to create those resources?

Welcome to Susan's Place Fafhrdesque. Much of what I know about the non binary took months of research and I am sure there is more I should know. It would be beneficial if your able to provide more useful information for our non binary members because many find it difficult to determine where in the non binary scale they are. If there is something I can help you with on this project, let me know as I many learn something in the process.

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The weight of scientific evidence points to transgender actually being a form of intersex, and the result of atypical androgen levels during the second half of that person's prenatal development (which is when most of the sex-specific differences between male and female brains are though to arise). For anyone who's comfortable with reading scientific papers, this one:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19403051
(Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation.)

is an excellent summary of current scientific thinking about the causes of being transgender (if you follow pubmed's link to the journal website, it's possible to download a full copy of the paper from there free of charge).

Basically, being MTF is the result of there being lower than normal male levels of androgens (testosterone and DHT) present during the critical period for sex differences in the brain, whereas being FTM is the result of androgen overproduction (or an exposure to external androgens) during that critical period. Being nonbinary is thus likely to be the result of having androgen levels higher than female, but not yet in the male range, during that critical period (or having male-typical levels for some of that time, but female typical levels for some parts of it too - this is what appears to have happened in my case).

Some genetic conditions (e.g. being XXY) can be a cause of reduced androgen levels. Caroline Cossey is one well known example of such a person (in her case, I think she's actually XXXY, but that has exactly the same effect, of reduced testicular hormone output during the critical period for brain development). However, environmental factors can equally well be a cause. Many of us older MTF and transfeminine people were prenatally exposed to a powerful artificial estrogen called DES, that was a commonly prescribed treatment for preventing miscarriages. DES acts as a chemical castration agent in adult men, and judging by what's happened to many of us who were prenatally exposed to it, it does in unborn babies too!

The main genetic cause of androgen overproduction in AFABs is Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH), a condition in which any one of several hormone processing enzymes is produced in insufficient amounts or missing altogether. The body attempts to compensate for the deficient enzyme by switching hormone conversions down alternate pathways, and this often results in overproduction of androgens as a side effect.

As numerous animal experiments demonstrate, exposure to external androgens can also drive male brain development in female fetuses, and I've found several case reports showing that two hormones (the progestins ethisterone and norethisterone) that subsequently turned out to be strongly androgenic to female fetuses, were being administered for miscarriage prevention (often alongside DES) throughout the 1950s and 60s. The case reports focus purely on genital appearance, however I've now chatted online to several people who were prenatally exposed to these drugs, and they show signs of having undergone male brain development. I'm not sure whether they identify as nonbinary or FTM, but two of the people I've talked to are/have been taking testosterone.

Intersex activist Alec Butler is one person in the public eye who was prenatally exposed to androgenizing progestins, who appears to have a nonbinary identity:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36092431

Anyway, to answer your question, if something (be it genetic or environmental) interferes with testosterone production in a biologically male fetus, there's probably quite a high likelihood of getting in a situation where T production has been completely shut down, which produces a person with a very girly brain and who is likely to be overwhelmingly female-identified later in life. With overproduction of androgens (or exposure to external androgens) in a biologically female fetus, there's probably quite a high likelihood that you could end up with androgen levels above female but not yet in the male range, which would be more likely to result in a person with a nonbinary identity. Perhaps that explains  why there are more nonbinary AFAB's?

AFAB here, and a very confused one at that. Not sure if I'm a trans man or genderqueer...or what exactly. But I can say this: when I was a kid I read that Simone deBeauvoir line "one is not born a woman, one becomes a woman" and it changed my life. I knew I did not want to become a woman despite having been born female. Now, for me personally that went way beyond not wanting to adhere to rules for gender expression set for women, but that was a good start. And when people asked why I wore men's clothes or didn't shave I could say, "I'm a feminist--no time to shave and women's clothes are useless and uncomfortable," instead of telling them that I was feeling deeply that I was not meant to be a woman. I'm not sure men have really been exposed to different ideas about gender, because there aren't many male writers on the subject there to tell them, "Hey, you don't have to be a man" or even "you don't have to adhere to this or that role or expression to be a man." There's just less freedom offered to AMAB people, because there's less discussion around what masculinity is, what it means to be a man, etc.

Anyway, I can't speak for anyone else, but that was my experience. Doctors tried to tell me this was trauma related, but I don't know. Who can know the mind of anyone else? I worry constantly that I'm simply rebelling against gender rules and roles rather than having a transgender experience. Again, just now trying to sort it all out. Finally.

Hi Laurance,

Welcome to the non-binary board...

Therapy can be a long process, where both parties start with assumptions and presuppositions, until the knots start to get worked out. For some, trauma is the original source of the desire to not be the gender assigned at birth. For others, it's genetics, and others again environmental influences - a doctor would see one source, the therapist another, and so on. All that is occurring is an attempt to rationalise something that is beyond their comprehension and personal experience. My therapists reaction to my coming out was trauma, initially. Until I worked out that a significant and consistent part of my life is fundamentally feminine in nature, and could highlight when I was female and when I was anything else. Yes, part of this fracturing is due to trauma - my initial diagnosis is cPTSD, and in my case feels like the boundary between DID and BPD (my core is very sensitive, I have an almost complete female persona, work persona and a little to my knowledge, and a host that is rational, and brutally logical, who sees both sides of the binary, and is clearly not part of it. I have panic attacks if I think I'm being abandoned. Not pretty.

And that's where it gets confusing. Now the DES studies are fascinating, as they show direct genetic influence, and more importantly epigenetic influence. I'm pretty certain my grandmother was exposed to DES which could explain the feminine in me - but those are questions that no one will be able to answer now. Likewise with the trauma, I can only infer what went on, as it was seated in my family of origin.

So, as a living Petri dish did trauma do it? I can't say, I just have to manage with my reality,and the consequence of all the influences in my physiological, and physical world - the only certainty is that I am not man.

Rowan