I got a new counselor recently, at a women's antiviolence organization. She told me something that seriously puts FFS in doubt for me.

First of all, I finally started doing well with my looks last year, and now people consistently perceive me to be a woman. My appearance and my voice are a success. I feel absolutely wonderful and thrilled about this development, which has allowed me to transition to fulltime.

At my last appointment, I came out to this counselor that I'm trans. She told me she had already figured that out, and I asked why. What tipped her off was some things I'd said about my marital situation that wouldn't be consistent with a genetic woman. Then she added that certain features of mine suggested my male origins to her, although those features alone wouldn't have given me away. I asked was it my big jaw?

She sounded surprised and said no, the jaw hadn't appeared too male to her. It was the size of my hands and the thickness of my neck. Features I'm permanently stuck with.

Well there goes FFS right out the window.

neck size can go down... its just muscle...

you can hide those things though, and most wont notice...
its mostly marital status things i wager
most natal women arent married to women


FFS is necesery if you want it...
although is it ffs if you dont need it? or just cosmetic surgery ?

why bother going to a trans specialist? go to a plastic surgeon and say you want a more feminine jaw, or nose... they can do that just as easily and cheaper... its what ill do for my jaw and lips, i want a more femine profile there, i dont need it, so im not paying through the nose for some 'trans specialist' doctor to do the same job and slap an extra 10k on top for lols....
R >

FFS is mostly for looks except in most extreme cases.
Big brow bossing in particular is very rare in female so that's the ONE thing
that if you've got, remove it.
Also, a really large chin (high, wide and square) is also a telltale sign, but not as much
as the brow bossing.

Every else, jaw, nose, cheekbones, is more for vanity than anything else.
And... There's nothing wrong with that. I did my nose I don't regret it.
But, the brow bossing I did because it really bothered me.

As for hands, depends what they're talking about by big.
Big in the absolute or relative to body size.
I bet that a lot of people who say hands reveal your TS
don't realize that a 6 foot women would probably have
hands very close in size to the 6 foot men.
They just grasp on that because its convenient
but I'm not so sure if its the "tell" in most case.
Its not in mine for sure. I've got small hands
for my body size.

As for the neck, its not all muscles, but lots of it is.
Some people, men and women, tend to accumulate
fat in the neck area
What makes a neck look big is also how long it is.
A long neck, even at 15 inch, won't look that big.
Mine is 13 inch and LONGGG.

 If I were going for conventional female looks, I'd get my nose whittled down a bit. But I've decided I like my nose as it is. I have a dark Mediterranean complexion, and my nose is appropriate for an Arab woman. Everyone assumes I'm from the Middle East. Once a white American racist told me to go back there. (My ancestors have been in America since 1720 and fought in the Revolution, can that jerk say the same?) I think Arab women are hot, noses and all, and I'm going to keep this look. I've always liked strong noses on dark brunette women and hated the trend toward sculpting puny little button noses that goes along with blondification. I think my face is well-proportioned naturally, and if I got a nose job it would throw everything else out of proportion.


Lebanese singer Hayfa Wehbi before she got a nose job
thumpa thumpa

When I first started HRT my hands were pretty muscular.  They were definetely "man hands".  Now after a year they have slimmed down considerably.  Also a few girls I work with have bigger hands than me.  I think that it is another one of those things were if you are self concious about it people will see that and then read you.

Also my neck muscles have diminshed and aside from my adams apple is feminine.  Its one of those things that when I see myself in pictures I notice right away is my neck.  I guess not really being able to see a side profile of myself in the mirror I hadn't noticed the change.

Audrey

The size of your hands can give you away, this is no secret.  Contrary to popular belief women do pay attention to this.  As much as people dismiss this, bigger hands can play into you being engendered or read.  Its a distinctly male trait very few women have. 

But, amy most women are also not 6 foot tall...
If your 6 foot tall, you'll have bigger hands no matter what sex you are.
Men do have bigger hands, but MOST OF IT is due to body size.

A small amount of it is due to T's action which gives more muscles and
increases the cross section of bones.

And, even at that, my hand is smaller than a women a foot smaller than
me on average, so there's plenty of "guys" whose hands are within female
norms (or even lower).

Quote from: Hypatia on February 13, 2008, 11:11:24 AM
... that goes along with blondification. I think my face is well-proportioned naturally, and if I got a nose job it would throw everything else out of proportion.

Your point about altering symmetry is absolutely right. One that most good surgeons take into account. From all I have heard Spiegel is very good about telling people that and refusing to suggest operating for reasons such as those.

As for 'blondification.' A few of us were born blonde, Hypatia. Blondification tends to be a brunette or auburn thing, not a blonde thing. Thanks for understanding.  >

Nichole

Supprizingly the hand thing never gave me away... tough my hands have slimmed down a whole lot...  I dont think its the size of the hand though that gives you away but the texture of the skin, the way the nails are taken care of,  the amount of visable veins you have, and your hand mannerisms...   Pre HRT my hands were a L Male glove <mechancics glove getting the most snug fit> and they were really veinous, I had thick calluses, my nails were chipped or worse... and if I had half the mind to I could break your hand in the middle of a hand shake...

Now Ive lost allot of meat in my hands...  the veins dont stick out at all, and I keep my nails emaculate...  I wear a womens large driving glove now <I dont know if the womens gloves sizes are diffeent from the male,> but the glove is alittle loose... but the medium too tight.. *shrugs*

How do you hold your hands? what do you do with them?  these are really important things to look at...  People, especialy women notice body language, and id your hands are part of that... the way you gesture, how you hold them while walking, how you hold your knife and fork...  Watch other women and learn... 

PS: Uma Thurman has HUGE freaking hands... and I mean HUGE...  there like an XL mens glove or bigger LoL...

yeah.... theres a girl at my old workplace who had an inch on me in hight, and her hands were bigger than mine...
tbh i did think mine were massive... but i wear a small glove... so meh who knows?

then again, large hands dont mean male...
bigger hands, but longer thinner fingers = more feminine...
also how your hands look...
smoother and softer looks more female...

I guess im lucky, i dont have a visible addams apple, or even know if i have one ><
i have a slight bump i can feel, but nothing youd ever see... my neck isnt tiny, but then, it looks thinner compared to my head....


same with big shoulders... some women have them too...
biggest thing that gets you clocked is how you act... women are about bodylanguage and are much better social readers than men... women notice things... notice how women will complement a haircut, whereas men wont bloomin notice it even if you tell them!
Most women put up with what they have and learn to accomodate it... they dont care... if your confident it wont hurt you any...
like my hight used to bother me....
im a girl
im a 5'9 girl.... yeah im tall and not exactly stick thin... oh well... i cant ever be 5'2.... so i learned to love it... and ill happily wear 3 inch heels and touch 6ft... i look fugging awesome sometimes percied disadvantages can become advantages... play to your strenghts and work around your weaknesses...
R >

Quote from: Hypatia on February 13, 2008, 09:53:07 AM
...Well there goes FFS right out the window.

I wouldn't throw it away, as a thought or plan, just yet. The first impression is almost always made with the face, followed by the voice, body, presentations,, behavior, etc. I think for some ffs is about both one's public presentation and personal acceptance. It's who you see looking in the mirror, and for some, even some very public transwomen, it is what gets one over some mental hurdles to become themselves. In a way it's not much different from a woman wanting to address her looks to be and feel better. And if only softening the features enough to be within the normal range of women and being seen initial as a woman is good. The cost is another matter altogether.

I'm neither for nor against the idea in the abstract... it's a highly individual decision. If anyone feels she needs it, she should definitely go for it.

I had been considering it, but now I'm doing fine without it, and have developed doubts about whether it would make much difference on my face anyway.

Hypatia, it definitively makes a different in how standard and beautiful you look, but that doesn't have anything to do with being seen as a women. I think FFS has more to do with seeing in the mirror what you want to see, or imagined seeing rather than just passing.

Some people need FFS just so they can live normal lives, but most that I've seen do not.

I am happy with my face in the mirror now. The magick formula turned out to be estrogen+laser+attitude. And following upon that, thanks to my recent transition, my life is now closer to "normal" than it's ever been.

I've gotten into the habit, when looking into the mirror, of saying "Hey there, beautiful woman" and actually meaning it.

Quote from: Keira on February 13, 2008, 11:09:22 AM

FFS is mostly for looks except in most extreme cases.
Big brow bossing in particular is very rare in female so that's the ONE thing
that if you've got, remove it.
Also, a really large chin (high, wide and square) is also a telltale sign, but not as much
as the brow bossing.

Every else, jaw, nose, cheekbones, is more for vanity than anything else.
And... There's nothing wrong with that. I did my nose I don't regret it.
But, the brow bossing I did because it really bothered me.

As for hands, depends what they're talking about by big.
Big in the absolute or relative to body size.
I bet that a lot of people who say hands reveal your TS
don't realize that a 6 foot women would probably have
hands very close in size to the 6 foot men.
They just grasp on that because its convenient
but I'm not so sure if its the "tell" in most case.
Its not in mine for sure. I've got small hands
for my body size.

As for the neck, its not all muscles, but lots of it is.
Some people, men and women, tend to accumulate
fat in the neck area
What makes a neck look big is also how long it is.
A long neck, even at 15 inch, won't look that big.
Mine is 13 inch and LONGGG.

That's right, Keira. When I compare my hands and feet with men my height, they're very close in size. Used to swap shoes with a friend of mine. I think we tend to obsess over features that really don't matter much. Like a lot of ladies here get stuck into the trap of thinking that all women are as small as Kate Moss and have tiny features.

Same nero....
i know 3 other girls my hight, thier shoesizes are same or bigger, and hands are identical....

Tbh, id rather not have ffs now. i like my face, its me, im not changing me, me rocks
R >

I had FFS done in early May 2009.  The avatar is pre-op, cause i still  have alittle brusing under the eylids..  He is def still in very good shape to do surgery.  He did put the titanium plate  in my chin area.  I had rinoplasty, chin, browline, jawline, lower eyelids, shave, forehead lift with scalp-reduction, and little lipo to the abs. I  would  not go with  another FFS dr., but that is only my opinion.  Only thing i  will prob need is the facelift in about  5 months as with the  bone displacement can leave  loose skin  later.  I hear this Dr. Raj Koodia is supposed to be like a top external rinoplasty dr. If i  need revision that is who i would get to do it.