This is a question pointed towards those who detransition and then hate anything lgbt. Some i could see trying to hate everything lgbt becuase they are in denial and not going to deal with their issues and taking the short term easy way, long term hard way out, but if you are ''cured'' then why not just be indifferent or relize that not everyone is the same. Now, the number of these people are from what i can tell is very small among the small number who do detransiton. However there is one infamous detransitioner i must say fascinates me in all the wrong ways. That is Walt Heyer. To be honest I used to find his stuff very ''triggering'' and harsh and mean, now i find them laughable at best but generally sad and pity the buggar most of the time. This guy thinks that parents of transgender kids should be put in jail for 20 years, things that children of transgender parents should distance themselves from their parents, or in his words from an article "I believe children should distance themselves from such a mentally disturbed person."

This is a man who transitioned for 8 years (tho even then he wasnt consistant and seemingly lied to the professionals). He lost a career and ended up  apprently working at a candy shop at the end of his transition life, he lost his family who shunned him and he said that all hurt. Shouldnt this man have empathy for transgender people who also lose their jobs and family? I mean even though he is either still in deep denial or was never at all a woman shouldnt he have empathy for those struggling?.... Apprently not, infact his hatred of trans people is even more extreme then other transphobes i have seen or heard from in my life.

There are other people who go back to where they were and are not like that Walt guy. Joel Nowak is the best example, havent read all his stuff but he went M2F2M and doesnt blame everyone else for his transition. From what little i have read from him it seems he still beleives that there are people who do need to transition (as is medical fact) and that gender is indeed a spectrum, but does caution those to really think about what they are doing. That sounds like great advice. As opposed to Heyer who is not just someone who dicounts trans people but thinks gender is very binary and rules must be followed.

I know for ever Heyer there are about 10 Nowak's but still, what is that dudes issue?

People like Heyer think that it was someone else who made them decide to transition; as if they had no say in the matter. You can see a gender therapist but they're only there to help you with your gender issues that were already there; not convince you you're transgender and order you to take HRT or surgeries.

And some cis people who don't understand anything about being transgender think the same thing about how transgender children are treated by doctors. That they're forced into taking HRT against their will.

Or people like Heyer probably transition back to the internalised trans phobia and trans phobia from other people becoming too much to deal with.

My thankfully only experiences with hate filled de-transitioners were at the Maryland Senate hearings on the TG rights, aka Bathroom Bill. The loyal opposition dragged out a few of them. I could not believe the vitriol coming from these people for their making "A bad decision", "Being tricked", "misled". Tricked especially by the T community in general. Any number of reasons aside from perhaps their own fault or rushing to find some magic pill to make their life better is what I heard.

I suppose you are right. But it bugs me ya know, i mean that man went through the whole thing in the 1980s and saw first hand what happens, or can happen to someone when they come out of the closet. The experince should have given him empathy for trans people, not hatred. Again I point to Joel Nowak and more stable minded detransitoners who although found that they may be best off as their birth gender still dont trash the T* community and even offer good advice and support.

I suppose however Mr.Heyer was indeed never trans or on the spectrum. I guess he was just lost maybe and was looking for some attention and never found it as a woman, but as a person being converted back to ''manhood'' he gained praise from the far religious right and since then has chummed with them. I guess he is one of the kind of people who never felt he belonged anywhere and now that a very questionable group of people ''accept'' his story, he clings to them. Kind of sad if you ask me.

I don't know much about those mentioned here but i do know that de-transition is very rare so these are all outliers. I do also know that there are blogs or articles out there written from a "Christian" perspective on those that decide to de-transition and then you have the complexity of religion thrown in there.

Like you point out though most who decide to go this path are not out to entice others to do the same.

One day before our therapy session started, I was listening to our senior MTF advisor in a discussion where she was trying to talk somebody else out of smoking. There was so much hate in her voice about smoking that I said to her that she was a former smoker. She didn't deny it so it appears the way she was able to kick the habit was to hate it. Many former smokers find the only way to quit is to find something they hate about the habit and use that image as a tool to quit the habit. In the cause of a person detransitioning, something in their life force their detransition through hate and they feel because it wasn't right for them, it's not right for everybody. This fails to take into account that people are different and what is right for one person may not be right for others. Not everybody force their view point on others but the people you are discussing do.

I saw a show quite a while back about a transwomen who fell in with some church group and they talked her into detransitioning. They really kind of brainwashed her. Telling her she would burn in hell, blah, blah and to detransition to save her soul. They even raised the money for surgery to have her breast implants removed.  Seems like religious nuts have the most problems with trans people which is rich considering some of the most perverted people in the world are bible thumpers.

I don't think that Heyer should draw broad conclusions from his personal experience and try to apply them to everyone else.  We're all different.

That said, I get uncomfortable with referring to him as a "man" (in quotes).  He is who he says he is.  Let him self-identify.  No quotation marks necessary.

Quote from: Julia1996 on June 18, 2017, 02:08:42 PM
I saw a show quite a while back about a transwomen who fell in with some church group and they talked her into detransitioning. They really kind of brainwashed her. Telling her she would burn in hell, blah, blah and to detransition to save her soul. They even raised the money for surgery to have her breast implants removed.  Seems like religious nuts have the most problems with trans people which is rich considering some of the most perverted people in the world are bible thumpers.

I don't agree with people imposing their religious conclusions on other people either.  The thing is, it's not always easy to tell when it is coercive.  When we, in SP, encourage others here to "live their truth", we call it support and education.  When religious people encourage others to detransition, they are also doing so on the basis of aligning with personal truth.  We just disagree about what it is.  I prefer the "to each their own" approach of secularism, but I recognize that the  contrasts aren't as sharp as we would often wish.

Why do a small  number of people who haven't started become hateful?

Why do a small number of people who start HRT become hateful?

Why do a small number of people who have GRS become hateful?

Why do a small number of people put scare quotes around another's identity?

I think youre just grasping for a topic here....

Becoming hateful toward others is the part of the process of refusing to take responsibility for one's own actions, failures or weaknesses. If you are not to blame, someone else must be.

But people deal in different ways. Most people approach failure or disappointment in more healthy ways than obsessive hate.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on June 18, 2017, 03:36:28 PM

I think youre just grasping for a topic here....

Think whatever your heart desires, this has been on my mind for a week or so.

Back to the original  topic. rmaddy you are right, that wasnt fair of me to use quotation marks. my bad, i will change that. Again, sorry to those offended for that.

I suppose you're right Viktor, you and a few others here have hit it on the head. It is more of a reflection on some that try to pin their choices on others, in a way scapegoating. Thanks for the input <3

Quote from: Julia1996 on June 18, 2017, 02:08:42 PM
I saw a show quite a while back about a transwomen who fell in with some church group and they talked her into detransitioning. They really kind of brainwashed her. Telling her she would burn in hell, blah, blah and to detransition to save her soul. They even raised the money for surgery to have her breast implants removed.  Seems like religious nuts have the most problems with trans people which is rich considering some of the most perverted people in the world are bible thumpers.

I saw this as well. The show was about Josef Kirschner who has a very checkered past. I e-mail him when he was Judy and I was in denial. Now I am she and he is unique, a male with a vagina, according to his website when it was up and running. I have not heard from him for several years now.

There are always people who deny that we have a very real problem. That was me for over 50 years. We should not blame conservative religious groups exclusively. There are plenty of others who do not want to recognize us as well. I came to accept myself for what I am and I will try to do my best at what ever I chose to do. If someone doesn't like me, then so be it. Maybe I will not change them, but they are definitely not going to change me. I already did that.

Quote from: Dani on June 18, 2017, 05:22:54 PM
Now I am she and he is unique, a male with a vagina, according to his website when it was up and running.

Rare but not unique. We have had this come up more than once in the time I have been on Susan's. Most only wanted the surgery and had no intention of transitioning or even having HRT. The intent was to remain on testosterone and have none of the estrogen body changes.

Quote from: Dena on June 18, 2017, 06:18:54 PM
Rare but not unique. We have had this come up more than once in the time I have been on Susan's. Most only wanted the surgery and had no intention of transitioning or even having HRT. The intent was to remain on testosterone and have none of the estrogen body changes.

Intresting... To each there own. Personally as much as I would love to get surgery I would find not doing the actual social transition to female such a shame. I mean that is really the best part. to live!

Quote from: Viktor on June 18, 2017, 03:56:34 PM
Becoming hateful toward others is the part of the process of refusing to take responsibility for one's own actions, failures or weaknesses. If you are not to blame, someone else must be.

But people deal in different ways. Most people approach failure or disappointment in more healthy ways than obsessive hate.

I think this is part of it, but I also think many conform to what they believe the larger society wants.   If they're exposed to many people that are transphobic, it shouldn't surprise us that some will cave to that pressure and then emulate it.

Whether these people who detransition are more hateful than other transphobes, I'm not sure.  There are many very hateful transphobic people in the world that haven't detransitioned.


Paige

Perhaps they were transphobic before, and if going back means going back to the way they thought before, that comes with it.

Quote from: VeronicaLynn on June 19, 2017, 01:56:22 PM
Perhaps they were transphobic before, and if going back means going back to the way they thought before, that comes with it.

I guess you are right. Hard to love yourself when you already hated yourself eh?? some people need help

I know that if I was forced to go back, I would hate myself, and everyone else. At least, that would be the case until my death. Fortunately, I think I have gone through enough that that won't happen.

I've recently begun to detransition so I understand that struggle, at least what I know of it so far. The reality is that there's not much support going towards people who detransition, neither within the medical field nor any communities. Many (lgbt and cishet alike) like to just sweap us under the carpet cause our struggles are deemed "inconvenient" or "too controversial". We are very few and far between with many different reasons for stopping and/or reversing transition so it's difficult to build a sustainable community together, I think, but some do try. Many also tend to receive a lot of backlash from others, getting our voices silenced from all directions, etc. With living with those kind struggles on top of the medical and social detransitioning process being very harsh in itself, I have a lot of understanding for why some of us become angry and lash out. But I don't think it's reasonable to attack the very concept of transsexualism/being trans due to that. But my point is that the fault doesn't only lie on the detransitioners for being hateful, cause they likely have a lot to deal with facing hate themselves and basically not having anywhere to turn for support. It doesn't excuse transphobia, but I think it's a pretty good explanation for why it happens.

I both got and gave a lot of support in the trans community and felt a connection to it during my own transition. Sadly I think it's the only community I've ever felt any sense of belonging to. So I'm not keen on leaving it but I know I should cause I'm cis. Can still be in the lgbt community though cause I'm pretty sure I'm bisexual.

My story is actually very similar to Walt Heyer's though, as I was also transitioning for about as long as him, 9 years actually so that's longer than his 8 years. And for pretty much the same reasons. I also have DID or some form if it, was traumatised as a kid and growing up, I also lied to my therapists about my past. I also lived as totally the other binary gender, went on hrt, had surgery, etc. I went FtMtF while he went MtFtM though. But my opinions on the trans community did not turn sour. I don't feel contempt towards the trans community as a whole at all, and I still think being trans is a real thing that affects a lot of people, and that they should be allowed and able to transition. Transitioning has a much higher success rate than failure rate. I still consider myself transmed and supportive. So my conclusion is pretty much the opposite to Walt's conclusion, but our stories up until that point do seem to be very similar. I just think that's a bit fascinating or something, which is why I brought it up. My similarities with him. I suppose that despite me being a lot younger than him, I'm both wiser and more mature though.

I don't like to throw blame around, but if there's anyone I should blame it's myself. Like I shouldn't have lied to my therapists and I should have dealt with my trauma first instead of just jumping head first into medical transition. I had even read about the very real risks of people with untreated DID getting hrt and surgery and why it's very discouraged by the medical field, but I ignored it. So I think it would be very unfair and unreasonable of me to blame an entire demographic of people for my own personal mistakes. Because I simply see my own detransition as a misdiagnosis and a medical mishap, a personal ordeal that I don't bring politics or my religion into, it's easy for me to be fine with trans people. It's not up to me to decide what is right for anyone but myself.

Apparently I'm not so good at deciding what's right for myself either, considering this mess. But I am pretty good at taking responsibility for my own actions and admitting I made a mistake, and I'm getting increasingly better at being honest with myself, which I've been working on hard for a while now and it's paying off. Now it feels like a relief to just say "I was wrong".