So I've just got in tonight from meeting up with an old friend from university, where we met 10 years ago and had a close set of friends. Since then, we've known each other in a more distant way. She's always presented as male, but goes by a female name, and describes herself as gender variant.

I hadn't seen her in years and I told her about my figuring out I was trans, along with other life stuff that's happened. I was surprised, given her experience, that she didn't take the news very well. I didn't really expect to have to defend why I'm trans or get into the nitty gritty, nor should I have to. I gave her an example and she ran over it and said that it didn't mean anything--but it does mean something to me, as just one thing in a lifetime of things that now make sense. But the piece that really struck me was that she said something along the lines of 'all trans guys sell out and join the patriarchy/no longer support feminism.' Which is obviously not true, but I didn't want to get in a fight over this. I just disagreed and said that wasn't true in my experience. She's a self-described passionate feminist. I am too. I didn't think being trans precluded that.

I also had another experience last month coming out to a distant friend who is also a self-described feminist. And challenged me on how do I know, that I don't know myself well enough (and somehow she does). Anyone who knows me well knows I'm a thoughtful and considerate person.

I'm just caught off guard by supposedly needing to 'defend' myself and my choices, which I shouldn't need to. Has anyone else come up against this and has advice on how to deal with it?

Yes; I don't associate with people who are as bigoted in their "tolerance" and "progressiveness" as the people they claim to be better than. Because you may find they are blind to anything but their own narrow view - the moment you stop conforming to theirs you'll find yourself considered a "lesser being".

You don't need to justify yourself to any of them. So don't.

this doesn't seem like something related to "friends" or "acquaintances" but more like the self proclaimed "feminist" they identify as. you don't need to justify yourself to them or anyone tbh. hell, you could have grown up loving dresses and being feminine and coming out as a trans man. people might not "get it" and would be all "oh, but you always were so feminine!" but that doesn't mean anything. people use excuses like these, feminism, what ever else to try and justify why you aren't "trans" enough or what ever else imo. kind of ridiculous though. if people give you a hard time, you can either explain and hope they get it or don't explain and let them go on about their stuff living in ignorance. people believe what they want to believe. people have such narrows views as viktor said. as soon as you don't fit that stereotype, they try to tell you how you're wrong and they're right.

Cheers! I was surprised because these are supposedly open-minded people but apparently not so much. I certainly don't see these people often, which is good, but it's made me nervous about how other people will react who are closer to me as I choose to come out to them. To me, it's an illogical reaction--someone's gender identity has no bearing on whether they support women's rights or feminism. It's almost as if something is being done *to* these acquaintances. As opposed to, I'm telling you about something I've recognised in myself. It's very bizarre. These two seemed to have a script and I was way off course.

Some butchy/masculine-type women are deeply offended by trans men. They don't see our existence as a legitimate, separate entity but instead as an intentional erasure and dismissal of womanhood.
They firmly believe we're altering ourselves because we're ashamed to be women largely due to negative societal pressures. Inadvertently, we're a direct slap in the face to them.

A long time ago (2005 or so, I guess), I had a couple of very butch acquaintances. I thought we meshed all right for a time (it was a naïve notion) but slowly started to realize that their ideals were extremely toxic. Lots of man-hating, militant feminism and general bottled up rage.
One day, I mentioned in passing that I wish I'd been born male. That led to an hour long lecture about the toxicity of society and how we've all been brainwashed into believing women are 'lesser than' so women are lining up to 'mutilate themselves' just to feel an ounce of self-worth. They also launched into a diatribe about trans women being pale imitations of femininity.
I never spoke to them after that.

If you're happy to be a woman, that's cool. But being a woman didn't just not work for me, it was actively suffocating me long before I had any real grasp of the societal implications of being female.
I didn't transition to 'slaughter my inner Venus' (very vivid recollections of that phrase being thrown about).

Anyway, I figure people with such intense and backwards ideologies must live miserable lives. It has to be exhausting to lug around such a heavy "moral" compass.

Your friends aren't true feminists if they believe you've somehow been brainwashed into being trans because of the patriarchy or any other bs reason apart from the proven biological cause. You need friends that accept you for you and not friends who you have to give explanations for them to accept you.

What is a "true feminist" though?

Quote from: Viktor on June 21, 2017, 03:48:18 AM
What is a "true feminist" though?

IMO it's someone that believes there should be equality for all genders and that everyone should have the choice to choose however they want to live their lives; without judgement or discrimination.

Wouldn't that just be an egalitarian then?

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I know a self-identified feminist at this point in time that completely rejects an "us and them" mentality toward men. They all feel to some degree that there is a battle going on, and for that reason they can never be equally on the side of men in matters. Because, well.... feminism is what they support.

The reason these individuals in question would find transitioning to male offensive at all is because they don't view the sexes as equal, or want to?

I do have a hard time finding described feminists who actually want true equality. Because true equality in all things might actually be horrible for women. Imagine them being drafted to go to war, or required to work in dangerous professions. They don't seem to want that kind of equality.

Quote from: Viktor on June 21, 2017, 04:22:57 AM
Wouldn't that just be an egalitarian then?

Thinking about it, I'm not sure I know a self-identified feminist at this point in time that completely rejects an "us and them" mentality toward men. They all feel to some degree that there is a battle going on, and for that reason they can never be equally on the side of men in matters. Because, well.... feminism is what they support.

The reason these individuals in question would find transitioning to male offensive at all is because they don't view the sexes as equal, or want to?

I do have a hard time finding described feminists who actually want true equality. Because true equality in all things might actually be horrible for women. Imagine them being drafted to go to war, or required to work in dangerous professions. They don't seem to want that kind of equality.

I think there are a lot of feminists like I've described but they feel to be a feminist you have to have that us and them mentality. Not understanding that although that's how the movement first started; it can now evolve to include every gender. Because we now know men also suffer sexism; although whether women have it worse is debatable and an unhelpful divisive issue.

Oh yeah I've thought about that point in the past . That seems a fair enough argument and one hard to decide on.