Is it okay to talk about the fact that I feel ashamed to be a trans woman, that there is some misogynistic ego remnant that makes me feel lesser for not being a cishet male?

I'm trying to work through my feelings as to why I won't take steps to even part-time or partially transition.  I always come back to fear, shame, and guilt.  Fear I can power through and get over, hell, I've gone out in public presenting female several times and my fear gets less each time.  Guilt is something that comes and goes but it has less to do with myself than my past and my relationships.

It's the self-esteem destroying shame that stops me every time.  That I am "bad" or "lesser" for daring to express being female.  I wish I knew a magic pill to make shame go away.

You can talk about almost anything on here , see the site rules, ashamed for you true self? I think every one on here would say see a gender therapist to help .

Robin,

This is exactly why many of us hold off our transition until much later in life until we can no longer stand the dysphoria any more or we don't care what others think about us. We try to deny that we have a situation that needs correcting. We struggle with our dysphoria because we have obligations to others and we feel that it is more important to care for them than ourselves.

Many of us late transitioners have finally come to accept ourselves as we are and do something about it. If transition is what we need to do, then there is much more to do for appearance issues than a young transitioner. I envy the young transitioners for their courage to accept themselves regardless of their situation.

Quote from: Dani on June 22, 2017, 05:33:29 AM
Robin,

This is exactly why many of us hold off our transition until much later in life until we can no longer stand the dysphoria any more or we don't care what others think about us. We try to deny that we have a situation that needs correcting. We struggle with our dysphoria because we have obligations to others and we feel that it is more important to care for them than ourselves.

Many of us late transitioners have finally come to accept ourselves as we are and do something about it. If transition is what we need to do, then there is much more to do for appearance issues than a young transitioner. I envy the young transitioners for their courage to accept themselves regardless of their situation.

Yeah, I'm just about there. The shame is from what we've be indoctrinated to believe what social norms are through parents, relatives and our exchanges with society as a whole. These internal beliefs are created before we acquire rationality, so it's ingrained. I still have it even though I see a therapist, although it's gotten better.


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I like Iranian leader, Ayatollah Homeini's, approach to transgender issue. He said 'it's never mentioned in the Quran, therefore not forbidden, and as such should be treated as just another medical condition with compassion and support from state, community and all good muslims'.

As a Christian, I looked through all the New Testament to see if Jesus ever forbid anything, and he did not! (His apostles is another story, and they were just men who betrayed Jesus teachings on multiple occasions, so whatever old Yhve said to Jews, or Apostle Paul said to remote tribes isn't really what Jesus said

So, ask yourself, if it's your body, you don't harm anybody, and even your religion doesn't call it a sin, why should you be ashamed?

Quote from: RobinGee on June 22, 2017, 02:51:22 AM
Is it okay to talk about the fact that I feel ashamed to be a trans woman, that there is some misogynistic ego remnant that makes me feel lesser for not being a cishet male?

I'm trying to work through my feelings as to why I won't take steps to even part-time or partially transition.  I always come back to fear, shame, and guilt.  Fear I can power through and get over, hell, I've gone out in public presenting female several times and my fear gets less each time.  Guilt is something that comes and goes but it has less to do with myself than my past and my relationships.

It's the self-esteem destroying shame that stops me every time.  That I am "bad" or "lesser" for daring to express being female.  I wish I knew a magic pill to make shame go away.

Robin, you are most definitely not alone in this feeling many of us have been through it or even some still struggle with it.  Mental health professionals typically refer to this as internalized trans-phobia.  As others have mentioned before me, this feeling of shame in who we are is why so many of us stay in the closet for so long.  I'm just about 40 and only came out in the last 9 months. Had it not been for the internalized shame, I'd have started transitioning much sooner and saved my wife a lot of pain.

If you're not already, I would strongly encourage you to work with a therapist that has experience working with transgender people. A good therapist will help you wade through your emotions and find ways to cope with them or even change your outlook such that they fade away.  My therapist has been invaluable to me in this process and I think most here would agree with that.  Don't go it alone, this is a journey that REQUIRES you to get help.  Unfortunately I think the 40% suicide rate among transgender people is due in part to those of us who try to conquer this by ourselves out of fear or shame of seeking out help.

How you feel is similar to how I felt. Over the years the dysphoria grows until you dont feel shame, you just need yo be who you are. I spoke with a therapist for 3 years before starting HRT, as an Alpha male it was difficult to accept I was tg. I guess being an older person and having fufilled all my family obligations I found incredible support. I'm 69 now, feel like 39 and finally loving life.

Just think years ahead to your deathbed and living a life unfufilled, that would be a total disaster. There is no shame to be who you are.

Eventually if you continue walking down this road the shame will be burned to ashes in the fires of anger over the game that's been played on you since birth by a transphobic society.

We were born this way.

None of you ever should be ashamed.  You are who you are. People who make trans people fell ashamed and like they are doing something wrong are the ones who need to be ashamed. I have never been ashamed in any way of being trans.

Stealing £20 from an old lady's purse to buy alcohol should cause shame.
Being who you are shouldnt.

You are you, thats it. man, woman, half giraffe-half kangeroo.
It doesnt matter. Being who you are isnt shameful, its smart

Quote from: MissKairi on June 22, 2017, 12:56:53 PM
Stealing £20 from an old lady's purse to buy alcohol should cause shame.
Being who you are shouldnt.

You are you, thats it. man, woman, half giraffe-half kangeroo.
It doesnt matter. Being who you are isnt shameful, its smart

Should you feel shame for hiding some important information about your internal feelings for so long from the people who love you and who you love?

Should you feel at least some inconvenience for playing the system (gaining good education and job, then turning around - and saying I want to be feminine and taken care, but I still want my job, and my salary and my nice house, and community support - but I don't want to deal with negative parts of day-to-day of women's experience)? Last one was targeted mostly at part time cross dressers like myself, not to those who are out...

Robin,
   Everyone close to you has looked at you as the 'male you' all your life. Thinking of transitioning means destroying that image for everyone including yourself. That is not an easy thing especially when you think you might be disappointing people you love. The 'new you' is not really known to a great extent so you can't know what the new life would be like. It will take time to work through these feelings. I am now living full time female, and I let these shameful thoughts stop me from progressing for decades. They are a memory now. I wish someone would have told me to not let the shame rule me. Of course, you are a different person and YMMV.
Moni

Quote from: elkie-t on June 22, 2017, 01:24:46 PM
Should you feel shame for hiding some important information about your internal feelings for so long from the people who love you and who you love?

Absolutely not.  That is precisely the behavior our transphobic culture demands that we have.  Exposing inner feelings that violate cultural norms is strictly taboo, and will get you 'thrown off the island.'  Only a few decades ago, simply having those feelings was grounds for involuntary psychiatric commitment and treatment with electroconvulsive and aversion therapy, with noncompliance rewarded with an icepick lobotomy.

Seriously.

We should not feel shame for trying so hard to avoid violating taboos. 

Within Western culture there are three paths transgender people may take, in order of acceptability.

1) Socially acceptable: Suicide

Society views suicide by the transgender person as putting themselves out of society's misery.  That is, the transgender person had the decency to recognize that their existance is culturally unacceptable and has removed themselves.  Society can shed a few crocodile tears, give a big "Aww.  Too bad, so sad." and get back to their cheeze nachos and pro wrestling, or other vital concerns.

2) Socially tolerable: Self-medication

Just another unconscious body in an alleyway, or half-seen figure staggering down Skid Row? No problem.  Obviously a lesser person, Not One Of Us, and safely ignored.  Of course, they continue to exist (for a while) as a drain on societies resources, and others in society will occasionally see and be uncomfortable with them, so this isn't as socially acceptable as suicide.

3) Socially unacceptible: Continued Existance

I don't value a culture that seeks to deny my existance very highly.  It's obviously defective, functioning on broken or false premises.  We do exist.

Quote from: elkie-t on June 22, 2017, 01:24:46 PM
Should you feel at least some inconvenience for playing the system (gaining good education and job, then turning around - and saying I want to be feminine and taken care, but I still want my job, and my salary and my nice house, and community support - but I don't want to deal with negative parts of day-to-day of women's experience)? Last one was targeted mostly at part time cross dressers like myself, not to those who are out...

Is it really so terrible for a human being to try and survive within a culture that forbids such gender expression?

Is it so horrible that someone cannot meet the demands of a sick culture and seeks to survive through what few outlets may be available to them that do not destroy their lives?

Elkie-t, if these are real issues for you and not some argumentative "straw man", I would recommend that you seek some assistance in working through these issues and finding some relief for yourself.   These do not come from a good or healthy place.

Quote from: Michelle_P on June 22, 2017, 01:49:20 PM
Elsie-t, if these are real issues for you and not some argumentative "straw man", I would recommend that you seek some assistance in working through these issues and finding some relief for yourself.   These do not come from a good or healthy place.

These are my real feelings, not just arguments. I don't feel ashamed for being transgender, but I do feel ashamed for not telling my parents at 10 or 12 or 16. I feel ashamed for marrying twice and fathering 4 children (2 of which I abandoned, and 2 another I might if I come out now). I do feel ashamed for using male privilege to get into top college and getting good career as a man (definitely my career won't be where I am at would I come out at 16)...

These are my personal feelings, and remorse for not coming out early in life, and reasons not to transition now. But you don't have to have those same, obviously.

Ps I am not suicidal, don't worry. And I don't go to shrinks, now they are obligated to report you to authorities - thanks a lot, I'll keep my thoughts to myself and stay out from them.

Quote from: elkie-t on June 22, 2017, 01:24:46 PM
Should you feel shame for hiding some important information about your internal feelings for so long from the people who love you and who you love?

Absolutely not!  If I had had a clear idea that I was trans and had concealed it from family and friends in order to gain some kind of advantage of male privilege or something, then maybe that would be shame-worthy.  However, I didn't have a clear idea that I was trans, so I never intended concealment, and such concealment as there was did not gain me any advantage, but rather cost me dearly. 

I feel embarassment that it took me so long to recognize the truth, and I feel pride that I acted quickly and honourably once I did figure it out.  No shame at all.

Quote from: RobinGee on June 22, 2017, 02:51:22 AM
Is it okay to talk about the fact that I feel ashamed to be a trans woman, that there is some misogynistic ego remnant that makes me feel lesser for not being a cishet male?
* * *
It's the self-esteem destroying shame that stops me every time.  That I am "bad" or "lesser" for daring to express being female.  I wish I knew a magic pill to make shame go away.

Yeah, it's okay to talk about shame.  Pretty much everybody here has faced and struggled with shame at some time and at some level.  That's not surprising, since almost all of us grew up in families and societies where gender conformity was valued and rewarded and gender non-conformity was stigmatized and punished.

If your level of shame is painful and obstructs your development (and it sounds like it does!), get some help from a good gender therapist and work on it.  And don't worry.  Therapists work for you, and they are ethically obligated to respect your confidentiality and keep your secrets.

There isn't a "magic pill" that makes shame go away.  But you CAN work it out.  Yes, it's okay to talk about shame here.  We understand what you're talking about.

If you feel guilty about your own choices in your life that is your choice. I don't see why you would try to apply it to someone else  who is just trying to figure  themselves out. Do you really think what you said was helpful to Robin?
Monica

Quote from: HappyMoni on June 22, 2017, 02:41:22 PM
If you feel guilty about your own choices in your life that is your choice. I don't see why you would try to apply it to someone else  who is just trying to figure  themselves out. Do you really think what you said was helpful to Robin?
Monica

Absolutely. She wanted a discussion about her feelings of shame, and I shared mine. Acknowledgement of those feelings is very important step in self-acceptance.

Do you think a standard vanilla 'you should not feel ashamed of nothing' instead of honest exchange of personal thoughts would help anyone deal with this problem?

Quote from: davina61 on June 22, 2017, 03:17:19 AM
Is it okay to talk about the fact that I feel ashamed to be a trans woman, that there is some misogynistic ego remnant that makes me feel lesser for not being a cishet male?

I'm trying to work through my feelings as to why I won't take steps to even part-time or partially transition.  I always come back to fear, shame, and guilt.  Fear I can power through and get over, hell, I've gone out in public presenting female several times and my fear gets less each time.  Guilt is something that comes and goes but it has less to do with myself than my past and my relationships.

It's the self-esteem destroying shame that stops me every time.  That I am "bad" or "lesser" for daring to express being female.  I wish I knew a magic pill to make shame go away.

It sucks that more people feel this way, but I'm glad I'm not the only one. The only reason it's taken me so long to pin down that I'm actually transgender is because every time I would present as masculine I would have breakdown because there was something inside me that told me I needed to be a female, the standard definitely of a female....Then I would try way too hard.....Date men, wear dressed, keep my nails done....And I finally just hit a point where I realized I was only sabotaging myself.

I am ashamed to tell my grandparents, not for who I am, but because they're extremely religious and I know they're going to be disappointed and embarrassed....Aside from that I'm pretty confident and comfortable with all of it now.

I think it's just a natural feeling. Even if we're not born in the right body, we're all still human at the end of the day...And unfortunately that means feelings.

Shame is something we all have. It can be a force of good as it helps us to better ourself. If you think back when you were a child, you wanted to have the respect of your parents so to avoid shame, you behaved yourself and worked to learn in school.

Now you are finding shame is bad because to become yourself, you fear that others will look down on you. This keeps us in the closet for years and makes our life miserable. The trick to overcoming shame is two part. The first part is to discover that others aren't troubled by your desire to transition. If you watch the site for long enough, many of our members have really great coming out experiences. The remaining shame is cause by people who will never accept you. These people aren't worthy of you as they are narrow minded, not the people who make the best of friends. They can be dismissed as you move into your new life and they remain in the old one filled with ignorance. 

It's not easy risking everything but if the thing you value the most is yourself, you might be ready to discover that you have little to to be ashamed of.