This is the best I can say about coping while not transitioned:

1. A supportive partner (married to her for over 20 years)
2. A therapist who sees both of us
3. HRT - a lower dose but no less effective

So why wouldn't I socially transition with that all in my back pocket? Well I sort of am. It's just happening at a geologic pace. What I mean is that I've been coming out to people very slowly. And making changes very subtly. Hopefully there are some that see the obvious. As with others here, if I could magically wake up in the right body - I would but it's complicated, right? We are entrenched in a place with a history and a social and family network. I'm older. But back to transitioning. I may never fully get there but I make small changes that make me feel whole. On the other hand I may actually cross the bridge sooner. The point is that I'm technically not transitioned now nor will be for the next year or two - let's say. I'm getting by but it's a challenge. No less than the challenge of the upheaval were I to transition abruptly right now. So it's a balancing act.

Quote from: AnonyMs on June 29, 2017, 04:45:51 PM
I decided to medically transition, but not socially transition. I can just couldn't manage without hrt. It's been w whole lot better than nothing and buys time, but I don't think I can do it forever.

I'm the same. The dysphoria got so bad that I had to do SOMETHING proactive about it. My focus at that point was on reducing the dysphoria to a tolerable level, nothing more. Two years later and I'm starting to think that social transition is inevitable sooner or later.

QuoteHow are you doing with the decision not to transition?

Easy; I'll either expire from heart failure or end my life when those I care about are already gone.

The former is more likely though, can't exercise without chest pain now so that's a pretty good indication that that is the one that'll do me in.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 05, 2017, 01:58:15 AM
Easy; I'll either expire from heart failure or end my life when those I care about are already gone.

The former is more likely though, can't exercise without chest pain now so that's a pretty good indication that that is the one that'll do me in.

Hi Dakkon

Welcome to Susan's. I hope you enjoy your time here.

I found your statement very melancholy and I wonder if there is something that you could do to improve how you feel about things. If you want to try and share some of what you are going through you can start a new thread for yourself, reply within the current thread  and we also encourage all our new members to make a post in the Introduction Forum. There are many people here from many different circumstances and  different backgrounds who may actually be able to help you in some way.

So you are able to get the very best from being here there are a couple of links we give to all our new members

Site Policies and Stuff to Remember (https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2.0.html)

Regards
ElizabethK
Global Moderator

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QuoteI found your statement very melancholy and I wonder if there is something that you could do to improve how you feel about things. If you want to try and share some of what you are going through you can start a new thread for yourself, reply within the current thread  and we also encourage all our new members to make a post in the Introduction Forum. There are many people here from many different circumstances and  different backgrounds who may actually be able to help you in some way.

No thanks, I prefer being a lurker that's just passing through.

It wasn't that sad of a statement though, just the truth.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 05, 2017, 03:53:21 AM
No thanks, I prefer being a lurker that's just passing through.

It wasn't that sad of a statement though, just the truth.

We are here to support you in any way you want  We always like to try and help if we can

Take care

Quote from: Dakkon on July 05, 2017, 01:58:15 AM
Easy; I'll either expire from heart failure or end my life when those I care about are already gone.

The former is more likely though, can't exercise without chest pain now so that's a pretty good indication that that is the one that'll do me in.

So you just described how you imagine your life will end, but how does that answer the question? How does that make not transitioning easy?

I know you said you prefer lurking rather than sharing your thoughts and that's perfectly fine, but since you already registered and posted that comment I take it there's a chance that you might be up for a chat after all. Right?

Just to be on the safe side: by asking how it's easy not to transition I'm not suggesting that you should pursue transition. I have absolutely no plans for any medical intervention myself, to be honest. But I've found other means to cope (is that transitioning in social or some other sense I don't know - an interesting question in its own right and may deserve it's own thread) I'm still genuinely interested in hearing from others who have chosen to not transition and are okay with that decision. Even more so since it seems our kind are in minority here.

Quote from: N A on July 11, 2017, 12:56:19 PM
So you just described how you imagine your life will end, but how does that answer the question? How does that make not transitioning easy?

It makes not transitioning easy because I've already made up my mind about my future. I'm already emotionally/spiritually dead, just waiting to physically die.

You're interested in why people decide not to transition; I just so happen to like philosophical discussions. So, sure, I'll tell you.

To put it simply, transitioning isn't in keeping with my nature. It would feel wrong and I would have to force myself to do it; which I can imagine would be a recipe for disaster if I chose to transition. Secondarily I view it as a veneer, one dons the likeness of the opposite sex but isn't genuinely (read: physiological) that sex. One has to fight against the nature of one's own physiology in order to gain some resemblance to one's preferred sex, and in the end it's a struggle that doesn't end until one decides to stop resisting or one dies. Thirdly, most of the physiological changes that transition can have on one's body are superficial or are just aesthetically changes, the only one that isn't (being able to breastfeed) is kind of F'd up in it's own way (who knows what long term effects "male" breast milk has on the development of children).

The quality of genuineness is important to me. I am being more genuine to myself by not transitioning and eventually dying from heart problems or suicide (when loved ones pass), than forcing myself to transitioning and almost certainly killing myself sooner than I would have if I didn't transition.

Very much agree on the matter of being a seeming minority, only other place besides here that caters to non-transitioners is the "crossdreamer" community.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 12, 2017, 03:36:56 AM
Secondarily I view it as a veneer, one dons the likeness of the opposite sex but isn't genuinely (read: physiological) that sex. One has to fight against the nature of one's own physiology in order to gain some resemblance to one's preferred sex, and in the end it's a struggle that doesn't end until one decides to stop resisting or one dies. Thirdly, most of the physiological changes that transition can have on one's body are superficial or are just aesthetically changes, the only one that isn't (being able to breastfeed) is kind of F'd up in it's own way (who knows what long term effects "male" breast milk has on the development of children).

Neglecting the nihilism dressed up as philosophy in obtuse diction

The usual first medical intervention in transition, HRT addresses the physiology of the most important human organ, the brain. It's well established that non trans people do not respond well being subjected to hormonal profiles of the opposite sex genotype while trans people almost universally find relief from the same treatment. This is because the brain of a trans person is in fact typical of the opposite gender of their genotype. That is a physiological difference.

People who believe what you express have tried to "treat" dysphoria by changing the brain, often by administration of genotype - typical hormones. It's well established that that doesn't work and in fact worsens dysphoria.

HRT by no means results in only aesthetic changes, rather it addresses the secondary sex characteristics, in fact virtually all of them if administered before puberty. More importantly, most trans people will tell you their entire emotional framework shifts and they can think more clearly. Having known many people through their entire transitioning I have certainly observed 180 degree shifts in behavior and uniformly happier people as a result.

Good on you to choose not to transition, we all do what we need to to get by, however your statement of the process is factually incorrect.

I still have pervasive thoughts on not transitioning. That maybe it's just an autistic obsession https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23897727  I could imagine believing that could make non transition easier. According to that paper, they're going to "withhold" treatment until there's a "genuine" case of dysphoria which will take years probably in addition to the years the NHS makes you wait, by that point I'd be what, another middle aged lady in a society that treats said ladies as basically invisible. I don't feel an overwhelming passion to seek fulltime transition. I just feel like crap in general.

Ahh, there's nothing quite like a good old philosophical discussion. I enjoy those too.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 12, 2017, 03:36:56 AM
To put it simply, transitioning isn't in keeping with my nature. It would feel wrong and I would have to force myself to do it; which I can imagine would be a recipe for disaster if I chose to transition. Secondarily I view it as a veneer, one dons the likeness of the opposite sex but isn't genuinely (read: physiological) that sex. One has to fight against the nature of one's own physiology in order to gain some resemblance to one's preferred sex, and in the end it's a struggle that doesn't end until one decides to stop resisting or one dies. Thirdly, most of the physiological changes that transition can have on one's body are superficial or are just aesthetically changes, the only one that isn't (being able to breastfeed) is kind of F'd up in it's own way (who knows what long term effects "male" breast milk has on the development of children).

Probably an unpopular opinion, but you have fair points there. I have had similar concerns and yeah one can always argue they are unfounded (see SadieBlakes post above). I know that transitioning is the only correct answer for many if not vast majority of transgender people, I'm not going to argue that. Everyone does whatever suits them best and I'm all for it. But I'll admit I share some of your concerns  and for me at least those concerns are very real.  Hormones are powerful stuff after all, and surgeries invasive, and since I'm currently doing pretty okay myself, I don't see why I would want to take a leap of faith now and risk everything by starting my transition. In my case that day may or may not come eventually, only time will tell. Nevertheless I think I get what you mean there.

And ultimately the question is not whether we have to transition or not, but rather what is the trade-off, isn't it? I understood that in your case one important factor speaking against HRT is an increased chance for heart failure. A perfectly valid reason for not to transition, if you ask me. Maybe there's something else you do to cope with being trans.

You didn't say whether you are closeted or not. I stopped actively being in a closet a couple of years ago (save my work, although I'm not presenting femme there) and since that decision my dysphoria has decreased dramatically. I no longer have those manic-depressive spells of misery that I used to have when I was younger. I'm no longer emotionally dead inside, as I used to be. I'd like to think I'm in good terms with my transness now, but reading all this stuff about the ever-increasing need for transition & correct hormones for your brain makes me sometimes question whether I belong.

Sure I would like to have thicker wrists, hairy ass and manlier hairline and whatnot, but I'm also concerned about the hormonal changes HRT would bring and which I couldn't control myself. For example. A while back I was put on medication (not related to  trans/mental health issues) that had this funny side effect in that it quite dramatically took the edge off of my sex drive, which in turn made my life thousand times easier than it was before. One of my concerns regarding possible HRT is that I'd get a part of/all of/more than my previous sex drive back. If that happened, well then I would probably have to kill myself because I couldn't take it anymore. Twisted, I know, but I don't want to push my luck.

And that is only one of the things I'm concerned about.

I do not know whether you were born male, female or intersex and that's absolutely none of my  business, so I'm not going to ask. But I have been wondering about the relief of getting the correct hormones for transgender brain - the thing that SadieBlake was referring to. If that theory is indeed correct, and let us assume for a while it is, then is the need for transition equally strong for FTMs that it is for MTFs? Male body does not produce any female hormones on its own, but female bodies do have some amount of testosterone, even if it's a low level. Any chance that trans men have an edge over here? Wishful thinking from my part most likely, but I've been wondering. I know my hormones are somehow very ->-bleeped-<-ed up and I've been inclined to think that it's not the lack of correct hormones that produces my transgender feels but rather the correct mix I already have... but I'm no doctor so I don't know. Just wondering.

Quote from: SadieBlake on July 12, 2017, 05:30:42 AM
Neglecting the nihilism dressed up as philosophy in obtuse diction

The usual first medical intervention in transition, HRT addresses the physiology of the most important human organ...

Wow, you're so smart. Thank you for telling me I am stupid.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
Probably an unpopular opinion...

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
I know that transitioning is the only correct answer for many if not vast majority of transgender people, I'm not going to argue that. Everyone does whatever suits them best and I'm all for it.

Yup, people should exercise their autonomy and attend to what they desire, they will bear the consequences for their actions; good or bad.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
I understood that in your case one important factor speaking against HRT is an increased chance for heart failure. A perfectly valid reason for not to transition, if you ask me.

Well I actually never considered the negative effects that HRT might have on a weak heart, so it never really was a factor in my decision not to transition. My heart problems are just an aftereffect of my dysphoria/anxiety about being trans.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
You didn't say whether you are closeted or not.

I am closeted and I intend to remain that way; I told one person about a year ago though, probably one of the dumbest decisions I've made.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
I stopped actively being in a closet a couple of years ago (save my work, although I'm not presenting femme there) and since that decision my dysphoria has decreased dramatically. I no longer have those manic-depressive spells of misery that I used to have when I was younger. I'm no longer emotionally dead inside, as I used to be. I'd like to think I'm in good terms with my transness now, but reading all this stuff about the ever-increasing need for transition & correct hormones for your brain makes me sometimes question whether I belong.

One step at a time; keep in mind you live your own life, not anybody elses. What may be true for them, may not be true for you. I recommend you ask yourself those questions that give you doubt or concern and come up with your own answers to them. Above all, just keep in balance with your own unique nature.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
Sure I would like to have thicker wrists, hairy ass and manlier hairline and whatnot, but I'm also concerned about the hormonal changes HRT would bring and which I couldn't control myself. For example. A while back I was put on medication (not related to  trans/mental health issues) that had this funny side effect in that it quite dramatically took the edge off of my sex drive, which in turn made my life thousand times easier than it was before. One of my concerns regarding possible HRT is that I'd get a part of/all of/more than my previous sex drive back. If that happened, well then I would probably have to kill myself because I couldn't take it anymore. Twisted, I know, but I don't want to push my luck.

You do what you need to do, I'd just recommend being careful about pharmaceuticals in general. The full range of the effects they can have on one's body (nevermind the differing effects that can have on one person versus another) are still unknown, despite claims to the contrary.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
I do not know whether you were born male, female or intersex and that's absolutely none of my  business, so I'm not going to ask.

But I'll tell you anyway because you ask, so damn nicely . MTF.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 02:53:22 PM
But I have been wondering about the relief of getting the correct hormones for transgender brain - the thing that SadieBlake was referring to. If that theory is indeed correct, and let us assume for a while it is, then is the need for transition equally strong for FTMs that it is for MTFs? Male body does not produce any female hormones on its own, but female bodies do have some amount of testosterone, even if it's a low level. Any chance that trans men have an edge over here? Wishful thinking from my part most likely, but I've been wondering. I know my hormones are somehow very <not allowed> up and I've been inclined to think that it's not the lack of correct hormones that produces my transgender feels but rather the correct mix I already have... but I'm no doctor so I don't know. Just wondering.

Well you're asking the wrong person because I don't know, I haven't done any research or investigation into such matters.

But I can tell you this, we are not our brain nor our bodies. They are ours, but they are not us. They are the filter through which we experience this place (whatever and wherever this place is). Whether that means we are trans because of our bodies and not because of our soul, I could not tell you, maybe but I don't know (although it seems more likely that we're trans, not because of soul, but because of the body that is ours).

Quote from: Dakkon on July 12, 2017, 04:50:58 PM
Well I actually never considered the negative effects that HRT might have on a weak heart, so it never really was a factor in my decision not to transition. My heart problems are just an aftereffect of my dysphoria/anxiety about being trans.

I am closeted and I intend to remain that way; I told one person about a year ago though, probably one of the dumbest decisions I've made.

Well damn, that sucks. I mean both of those things.

It would be too easy for me to say that there must be other people out there that would be loving and accepting of you, because that's what happened to me. But that could be BS, as I don't know anything about your circumstances or where you live, etc.

I'm blessed to live in a country where there are no strict gender roles to begin with, I have a supporting family, and while I'm not out at work it doesn't feel like I have to pretend there to be  something I'm not either. But things could be very different, I know that much. I've also some experience living abroad (talking about a year or two here) in a culture that has way stricter expectations for both males and females, and I chose to stay closeted for some time in most settings for practical and safety reasons. It wasn't as bad as an experience as I had been expecting it to be, but it still left me partly dead inside for quite some time. I turned more inwards and mostly kept to myself, unable to really enjoy anything.

Anyway. I don't want to sound too naive or pretend to know better than you what you are going through and tell you that it will get better one day. It might as well not. But at least let me say I hope you won't have to stay closeted for the rest of your life. Sure there must be other people out there that would be loving and accepting of you, I want to believe that.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 12, 2017, 04:50:58 PM
You do what you need to do, I'd just recommend being careful about pharmaceuticals in general. The full range of the effects they can have on one's body (nevermind the differing effects that can have on one person versus another) are still unknown, despite claims to the contrary.

I hear you, that's why I've been so iffy about HRT. Also the medication I was talking about, it does have certain risks and I might end up with a heart failure (theme of the day), but it's a risk I'm willing to take. Besides, thanks for the meds, I haven't been abusing any substance for years now. I have no need to. So in this specific case I'd say pros outweigh the cons.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 12, 2017, 04:50:58 PM
But I'll tell you anyway because you ask, so damn nicely . MTF.

Well, I thank you for sharing that 

Quote from: Dakkon on July 12, 2017, 04:50:58 PM
But I can tell you this, we are not our brain nor our bodies. They are ours, but they are not us. They are the filter through which we experience this place (whatever and wherever this place is). Whether that means we are trans because of our bodies and not because of our soul, I could not tell you, maybe but I don't know (although it seems more likely that we're trans, not because of soul, but because of the body that is ours).

Interesting, I see mind and body closely connected and would pretty much say that your mind is just some chemical reactions produced by our body, including brain... well I don't know... And while I have always strongly felt like a boy/guy/man inside (or at least what I think being a boy/guy/man is about), my pragmatic side tells me I'm not exactly a male nor female being, but rather something and somewhere in between. Like being an intersex in a way, if you will.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
Well damn, that sucks. I mean both of those things.

It is what it is. It could always be worse.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
It would be too easy for me to say that there must be other people out there that would be loving and accepting of you, because that's what happened to me. But that could be BS, as I don't know anything about your circumstances or where you live, etc.

Ah don't worry about it, it's easier for everyone involved in my life if I just remain closeted. And considering my mental state as well as my heart's condition, I'd find it irresponsible to engage in a relationship with another person. Friendships are fine, but I don't have any friends to begin with so (I guess my Dad and my dog count as friends though).

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
Anyway. I don't want to sound too naive or pretend to know better than you what you are going through and tell you that it will get better one day.

You're fine, you don't need to be so self-disparaging. Certainly not for me sake.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
It might as well not. But at least let me say I hope you won't have to stay closeted for the rest of your life. Sure there must be other people out there that would be loving and accepting of you, I want to believe that.

It's nice of you to say that.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 06:09:16 PM(theme of the day)

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
Besides, thanks to the meds, I haven't been abusing any substance for years now. I have no need to. So in this specific case I'd say pros outweigh the cons.

Very cool.

Quote from: N A on July 12, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
Interesting, I see mind and body closely connected and would pretty much say that your mind is just some chemical reactions produced by our body, including brain... well I don't know... And while I have always strongly felt like a boy/guy/man inside (or at least what I think being a boy/guy/man is about), my pragmatic side tells me I'm not exactly a male nor female being, but rather something and somewhere in between. Like being an intersex in a way, if you will.

I agree that "mind" and "body" are very closely connected and affect one another (how else could conditions like Broken Heart Syndrome exist without that being true), on the matter of the "person" being the product of the body's biology I disagree. That's ok though, I don't want to force my perspective on other people. But, I would like to leave with this question.

What is a person? Is a person their body, or does a person have a body (is it their possession / is it something they have control of or is it something that they are in some way "piloting")? Are you your brain, or is it just something that you have; etc.

It was nice talking to you, you're a very cool person and I wish you luck in your future.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 12, 2017, 09:53:47 PM
Ah don't worry about it, it's easier for everyone involved in my life if I just remain closeted. And considering my mental state as well as my heart's condition, I'd find it irresponsible to engage in a relationship with another person. Friendships are fine, but I don't have any friends to begin with so (I guess my Dad and my dog count as friends though).

I see. You do you obviously, but it sort of sounds like you have decided for others what is best for them (=you staying closeted). It's one thing to stay closeted due to safety/financial/medical/professional reasons, but to say you have a moral obligation to refrain from relationships because of who you are... I mean, come on, is that really a piece of advice you would give to another person (mind you, to someone that is not you)? I'm not expecting you to answer, but think about it for a moment.

You probably know this already, but you do have a good sense of humor and the capacity for some profound thinking, and I'm certain a lot of people would enjoy your company. But I get it, anxiety is a bitch building all those walls between you and other people. I don't know you and I know you didn't ask, but the way you talk about yourself makes me wish there was something I could do to help you with your anxiety issues. But alas, it's not my place to fix other people and I wouldn't know how to do that anyway.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 12, 2017, 09:53:47 PM
I agree that "mind" and "body" are very closely connected and affect one another (how else could conditions like Broken Heart Syndrome exist without that being true), on the matter of the "person" being the product of the body's biology I disagree. That's ok though, I don't want to force my perspective on other people. But, I would like to leave with this question.

I don't think you're forcing anything  I just love it when people disagree with me and do it with class.

But alright, let's agree to disagree for now, and thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. Best of luck for you too, and even if you prefer lurking around to posting, consider catching me up in this or some other thread, some other time maybe?

Quote from: N A on July 13, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
I see. You do you obviously, but it sort of sounds like you have decided for others what is best for them (you staying closeted). It's one thing to stay closeted due to safety/financial/medical/professional reasons, but to say you have a moral obligation to refrain from relationships because of who you are... I mean, come on, is that really a piece of advice you would give to another person (mind you, to someone that is not you)? I'm not expecting you to answer, but think about it for a moment.

I can only tell you how I feel at the moment, it could change in the future, but I don't think that's likely.

However, you are right, I wouldn't give the advice that I follow to another person. Nevertheless, I feel that advice is a personal decision that someone has to come to on their own. If I thought someone was wrong (or if I just wanted to give them an alternative opinion) in censoring themselves in the way I described, I'd cite my misgivings about that decision and explain why, but that's about all I'd feel comfortable doing.

Quote from: N A on July 13, 2017, 12:19:37 PM
...catching me up in this or some other thread, some other time maybe?

Well... Maybe. No promises.

Quote from: Dakkon on July 13, 2017, 03:31:32 PM
I can only tell you how I feel at the moment, it could change in the future, but I don't think that's likely.

However, you are right, I wouldn't give the advice that I follow to another person. Nevertheless, I feel that advice is a personal decision that someone has to come to on their own. If I thought someone was wrong (or if I just wanted to give them an alternative opinion) in censoring themselves in the way I described, I'd cite my misgivings about that decision and explain why, but that's about all I'd feel comfortable doing.

Gotcha. And I think that's fine, it's not like there's some ultimatum for that decision anyway.

Ultimately, I have decided not to transition due to laziness, costs, inconvenience, and fear.  Looking back, I wish I at least got top surgery done while my mother (my only support) was still alive.  If I were to transition now, I'd still want to do top surgery, and just leave it at that.  I'll be honest, it is hard to see others go through their transition, which is why I am not on as much now, but they worked for it, and I could, too, if I wanted to, but I won't.  Therefore, I only have myself to blame.  It is quite frankly more comfortable for me to keep living in this delusion that I will be okay not transitioning.  I've been doing that for over 20 years....so I can do it for another 20 more....40 more....etc.

Big hug! Good to see you again! The whole thing is about finding peace with yourself. I hope you have. 

Hugs, Devlyn

I suffer the same pain but celebrate on year of hrt today. I have much much less dysforia but have very little support. The pending loss of family and resources is a pending cliff to fall over. I am going forward the best I can

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