A big hug Michelle. That was scary.

I'm so glad that you are safe and well.

Quote from: Cindy on June 25, 2017, 10:08:06 PM
A big hug Michelle. That was scary.

I'm so glad that you are safe and well.

Thanks, Cindy.  Lisa, I really do try to be careful.  Sometimes trouble can find us.

For what it's worth, I'm not going to let this slow me down.  I have three mission items on my list for tomorrow:

1) Re-file with the state healthcare exchange for insurance as a single person.   
2) Get my ears pierced
3) Get my nails done.

Those last two inviolve getting out of the house and interacting with strangers.  We'll see who squacks at having me in their chair.

Tuesday I have an appointment to have my eyebrows done at a Benefit Brow Bar.  On the main floor of a very large department store.  Showtime!  (OK, maybe I'm an uncloseted exhibitionist.)

Lots of public exposure for the obvious transwoman.  Get back on that horse, and ride, baby, ride!

I'm all jelly with you out there getting the friggin' treatment! Have fun, hon. Don't let the bastards get you down.

Quote from: Michelle_P on June 25, 2017, 10:22:54 PM
Thanks, Cindy.  Lisa, I really do try to be careful.  Sometimes trouble can find us.

For what it's worth, I'm not going to let this slow me down.  I have three mission items on my list for tomorrow:

1) Re-file with the state healthcare exchange for insurance as a single person.   
2) Get my ears pierced
3) Get my nails done.

Those last two inviolve getting out of the house and interacting with strangers.  We'll see who squacks at having me in their chair.

Tuesday I have an appointment to have my eyebrows done at a Benefit Brow Bar.  On the main floor of a very large department store.  Showtime!  (OK, maybe I'm an uncloseted exhibitionist.)

Lots of public exposure for the obvious transwoman.  Get back on that horse, and ride, baby, ride!

Best Dam response out there ...good on you Michelle

Nice piece of work with the pepper spray...Glad you are still here to give us your insight

How many piercings are you getting...2 for each ear?

You are going to feel great after a bit of well deserved pampering...dangly earing are fun!! 

Liz, I'll just follow up over in An update on me...

My point is that living a non-passing life, we have to be prepared for the occasional transphobe or person with mental health issues being triggered by our presence. We have to be careful about our surroundings, and be aware of how to move and act to protect ourselves.  We have to be prepared for the occasional very unpleasant reminder that some people will clock us, will out us, and will seek to take some action against us. 

We also have to have the sheer stubbornness to get right back out there and continue to live, really live our non-passing lives.  The alternatives are ultimately as bad as denying ourselves the opportunity to transition.

Transition is easy, except when it's not.  A good support system, friends, therapist, perhaps family are something we will need from time to time, if only to vent after the fact.

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
So I learned that I really don't pass even after having ffs.
Had a co-worker talked to be about same-sex marriage and asked me when I was going to get married to my bf.
All of that hard work for nothing and now I feel like a failure.

I'm having thoughts of just taking estrogen but going back to living socially as male.
I don't want to but being clocked is severely depressing.

So how do I learn to live as a non-passing trans person?

Your letter touched me. I, also have something of the same problem. But after years of hrt and nothing else (no money for surgeries), I decided to start growing my hair out. It now is down to the bottom of my shoulders! And the estrogen has made my hair softer and more feminine. It appears to me (is that really you in the photo?) that you do pass! You just don't think you do, but some people are good at picking up on the little things that can give it all away. You just need to have a strong mental image of yourself as a woman, and BE that woman every day.
   Going backward to attempt to "reassert your lateness" is completely useless. You're already across that line!

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 06:16:41 PM
Which all check out fine and yet I still get clocked.
It's because of my hard face and very broad body.

Sent from my LG-H820 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Michelle_P on June 26, 2017, 01:27:17 AM
Liz, I'll just follow up over in An update on me...

My point is that living a non-passing life, we have to be prepared for the occasional transphobe or person with mental health issues being triggered by our presence. We have to be careful about our surroundings, and be aware of how to move and act to protect ourselves.  We have to be prepared for the occasional very unpleasant reminder that some people will clock us, will out us, and will seek to take some action against us. 

We also have to have the sheer stubbornness to get right back out there and continue to live, really live our non-passing lives.  The alternatives are ultimately as bad as denying ourselves the opportunity to transition.

Transition is easy, except when it's not.  A good support system, friends, therapist, perhaps family are something we will need from time to time, if only to vent after the fact.

Michelle - Sorry you had to face that incident. I really like what you have said here and it shows your strength and resolve. Passing personally is a mixed thing to me, when i do i appreciate it and when i don't i often think "What right does anyone have to treat me badly because of my looks? " and then the next day i feel like dressing Tomboy with no makeup just to assert my right to be. (i've done that more than a few times)

It sort of comes down to what your expectations are for life, given what the universe has dealt you. Love of either the sisterly, brotherly or romantic type is way more important than looks. Like you say our support network is a manifestation of the love we have in the world. In a big sense that will beat out a models face and perfect body in an of itself any day. Extremely beautiful people have lots of issues too including issues caused by their extreme beauty.

Humans of all types get treated badly. Women face harassment and sexism. Men face bullying and the sometimes extreme expectation to measure up to other men, Disabled people face ableism, etc. We are going to be no different.

To the OP: I'm truly sorry you are feeling that way and i think sometimes therapy is one of the best ways we can reset expectations of ourselves and our place in the world.

When it comes to passing, it may not be possible 100% of the time. I remember years ago before I knew as much as I do now, I met a colleague of my brother's when I visited his workplace. She was a costume designer for a large theatre company. She towered over me, being broad, tall and having a deep voice. She had the most wonderfully warm personality and confident demeanor. I felt swallowed up in her warmth. Looking back, a bit wiser now, she was a trans woman, no doubt. At the time I thought she was just , well, a woman who was a bit different to the usual ones I've met, but I very much fell in love with her, and that's why I still remember her so vividly.

I mean to say, that there is no way she would have 'passed' but it didn't matter. She was in her element, she loved who she was and what she was doing. She had personality to remember her by.

And I am sure, that if anybody dared to accost her, she would have shrivelled his testes by merely looking at him.

Passing isn't everything, and this will be my most important life lesson as I transition into a trans man.

We need less 'passing' and more acceptance of the diversity of humans among us. This will free all of us from the bonds of stereotyping.

Passing to me is everything. If you pass, people will be less to bother you. People will treat you better.

Passing is determined by you not by others. I used to think if strangers look at me funny then I do not pass. If family, friends, and co workers think I dont pass its because they know who you are.

Looks is only one aspect as others have pointed out. Most tg THINK they have some non passing looks that cannot be physically changed. Height, feet, hands, shoulders, face, chest etc. Some features can be changed. Remember there are so many cis females with what you call male features, they dont get upset. Remember over time on hrt you will change shape and your skin texture will soften your look, loss of muscle bulk will make your shoulders feminine. Your face shape looks passable already.

How do you walk, how you act, how you speak, cough, laugh. How you engage a conversation with a male, female, gay etc.These are the non passing aspects that most strangers pick up on, these aspects can be changed by hard work.

Passing is NOT being pretty, its to look female and act female. Are you talking about looking like a hot female? Thats not passing.

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 11, 2017, 09:05:27 AM
Passing is determined by you not by others. I used to think if strangers look at me funny then I do not pass. If family, friends, and co workers think I dont pass its because they know who you are.

Looks is only one aspect as others have pointed out. Most tg THINK they have some non passing looks that cannot be physically changed. Height, feet, hands, shoulders, face, chest etc. Some features can be changed. Remember there are so many cis females with what you call male features, they dont get upset. Remember over time on hrt you will change shape and your skin texture will soften your look, loss of muscle bulk will make your shoulders feminine. Your face shape looks passable already.

How do you walk, how you act, how you speak, cough, laugh. How you engage a conversation with a male, female, gay etc.These are the non passing aspects that most strangers pick up on, these aspects can be changed by hard work.

Passing is NOT being pretty, its to look female and act female. Are you talking about looking like a hot female? Thats not passing.

Been on hrt for almost 5 years and not one bit of my muscle has diminished. I can still lift 150+ with no problem.
Appearance and mannerisms play a HUGE role, especially appearance. If you don't look it, you're going to have a rough time. also being attractive matters because those who aren't attractive are treated like second-class citizens.
Also my face doesn't pass as there are plenty of masculine features still.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 11, 2017, 01:38:53 PM
Been on hrt for almost 5 years and not one bit of my muscle has diminished. I can still lift 150+ with no problem.
Appearance and mannerisms play a HUGE role, especially appearance. If you don't look it, you're going to have a rough time. also being attractive matters because those who aren't attractive are treated like second-class citizens.
Also my face doesn't pass as there are plenty of masculine features still.

For crying out loud, post up some recent photos that corroborate that  you look male or quit the constant attention seeking. At the very least, pull down the avatar of the woman because she couldn't possibly be you based on all your previous posts.

I sent you pics that showcases the damage

For the record....I got the pictures and you're obsessing. You look fine and 100% female. This info is not to humor you. It is for others who view this thread. If you posted those pictures here...everyone would discard your complaints. Stop crapping in peoples threads.

Quote from: jentay1367 on July 11, 2017, 05:55:19 PM
For the record....I got the pictures and you're obsessing. You look fine and 100% female. This info is not to humor you. It is for others who view this thread. If you posted those pictures here...everyone would discard your complaints. Stop crapping in peoples threads.

Ok, you're clearly ->-bleeped-<-. I shown those pics to other trans forums and consensus from people there was I don't pass at all and I still look like a man. Places like ->-bleeped-<-, true selves, etc with popular trans forums would disagree with you. I could go further into detail but you obviously won't listen.

You answered my question. You are not talking about passing, rather you want to look like a hot female. Thats NOT passing. You should change the thread to" I'm not a hot looking female."

Angieisalone, I saw your threads on ->-bleeped-<-, and obviously everyone said that you were delusional: for all we could see, you were passing.
I also know that you've been complaining for some time, just to see everyone disagree with you.
Seeing you spend much time reiterating your ritual, I'd say you have to work on that dysmorphophobia.
It's far more serious than only dysphoria at this point, you need counseling.

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 12, 2017, 07:13:00 AM
You answered my question. You are not talking about passing, rather you want to look like a hot female. Thats NOT passing. You should change the thread to" I'm not a hot looking female."

HRT has given me a pretty feminine shape in 14 months, but I have absolutely no hope of passing simply because of my masculine face (no money for FFS). I live as a male (AMAB) outside home. No choice. But I have accepted it and am living my life as best I can. I have a family member who complains about things that they have no right to complain about because everything else in life has been handed to them on a golden platter. I quite trying to understand years ago; they don't care. Each of us should try to deal with life as it has been given us. Chronic complaining only serves to bring others down. Just my two cents worth....

Edit: I hope this post sounded complimentary to your quote. Sometimes I don't write clearly...

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 12, 2017, 07:13:00 AM
You answered my question. You are not talking about passing, rather you want to look like a hot female. Thats NOT passing. You should change the thread to" I'm not a hot looking female."

That's only a part of it. Being attractive matters in a big way especially if you are female. Unattractive people are treated like second-class citizens. It's harder to find love, get raises/promotions in a job, etc.

Quote from: swatch on July 13, 2017, 04:13:17 PM
Angieisalone, I saw your threads on ->-bleeped-<-, and obviously everyone said that you were delusional: for all we could see, you were passing.
I also know that you've been complaining for some time, just to see everyone disagree with you.
Seeing you spend much time reiterating your ritual, I'd say you have to work on that dysmorphophobia.
It's far more serious than only dysphoria at this point, you need counseling.

Every time I have proved them wrong with research and evidence. They also get very annoyed when they are proved wrong. I have seen counseling and my therapists would disagree with ->-bleeped-<-.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 19, 2017, 10:23:52 AM
That's only a part of it. Being attractive matters in a big way especially if you are female. Unattractive people are treated like second-class citizens. It's harder to find love, get raises/promotions in a job, etc.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but welcome to the women's room.  This is true for all women in western culture, not just those of us who arrived at our femininity the long way around.  This isn't a passing issue, merely a part of living in a culture that treasures beauty far above skills, intelligence, or even humanity.

The problem isn't within us but within this sick culture.  We, like all women, have to find a way to survive within it.

QuoteEvery time I have proved them wrong with research and evidence. They also get very annoyed when they are proved wrong. I have seen counseling and my therapists would disagree with ->-bleeped-<-.

It sounds, oddly enough, like you are putting considerable energy into researching and trying to validate a non-passing state, in spite of appearance.  That speaks to the degree of self-confidence that you project. 

Our self-confidence when we leave the confines or our home and venture out into the world matters far more than meeting this week's standards of beauty.  An utterly gorgeous woman stepping out into the world, who feels insecure and lacks confidence, or is the slightest bit 'off' arbitrary standards, will be clocked, will have her femininity questioned, whether or not she is trans. (Just look at the crazy media stuff about Lady Gaga.)

There are also folks out there with their own mental issues who will clock anyone that doesn't meet their particular standards, and push to extremes.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-mistaken-transgender-harassed-walmart-bathroom-article-1.2638748

We'll get clocked occasionally.  So will ciswomen.  Do what they do, and laugh it off.

I am a woman.

I am a lesbian.

I am transgender.

Nobody else gets to deny me any of these things.  Oh, they may have their opinions, but they don't change me.  I KNOW who I am. 

Have confidence in who you are.  (And carry pepper spray for the persistent crazies...)