I found life was much easier when I stopped worrying about whether I passed or not. I know who and what I am and have the confidence to back that up. I'm not beautiful, at least not by modern societal standards, but I'm happy. Do I get clocked? Yeah, probably, but it's been a very long time since it's happened in a way that I notice.

I now live the boringly normal life of an Aussie lesbian. Yawn. But as I read this thread, I see a recurring theme, even among those with a feminine appearance, that there is a very obvious lack of confidence with some of you - and that's what is: A) getting you clocked and B) is obvious to all who give you more than a fleeting glance.

Confidence is the keystone to passing, irrespective of looks, without confidence in who you are, there is no passing. Or you can just stop worrying about it - but that requires confidence too.

So if you are impassable like me & its all about confidence! How the f##k do I get it can I buy it from some one because that great man in the sky is a calling my name, sisters like me or Louth me  I really do need your help

Quote from: coldHeart on July 19, 2017, 06:35:16 PM
So if you are impassable like me & its all about confidence! How the f##k do I get it can I buy it from some one because that great man in the sky is a calling my name, sisters like me or Louth me  I really do need your help

Where to find confidence? Well, I faked it until one day I realised I wasn't faking it any more.

Quote from: coldHeart on July 19, 2017, 06:35:16 PM
So if you are impassable like me & its all about confidence! How the f##k do I get it can I buy it from some one because that great man in the sky is a calling my name, sisters like me or Louth me  I really do need your help

You cannot buy it honey, but you can grow your own in your little garden. When I am out, any time I was scared of doing something because of insecurity or shame, and I caught myself in being scared, I'll force myself to do it. Once done, it ain't scary anymore and your confidence grows.

I knew I cannot pass since age 16 (maybe that's why I did not seek transition then, or lack of knowledge of medical miracles making it possible). Still, how often you see cis-girls over 6' tall? Whatever, I decided that I won't even look for passability, but rather focus on me looking sexy and confident trans-lady, and not a cross dresser who is ashamed of himself and go deep length to unsuccessfully hide all male traces to the point of suffering from physical self-torture (not that I haven't tried that route first).

As soon as I stopped pretending that I am a cis-female and started presenting myself as a trans-female who knows she's cute but doesn't care if other people approve her, people (regular people on streets and everywhere) started to approve me and give me lots of praise and compliments )

Or let me put it another way, the less artificially stressed about your vanity you are, the more naturally pleasant and likable person you present yourself in social communication, the easier to other people is to ignore your male traits and accept you as a lady


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't care if I am clocked or not.... actually that is not completely true, I do care sometimes. But I used to care that I was getting clocked...all...the....time. but now I care far less about it and just get on with my life. I am still just into my Second year on HRT and living fulltime only a number of months. I try to be confident(fake it till you make it) and  don't appear androgynous. I simply wear what most women of my age and statue would wear.

Anyone making a cursory glance at me would clock me, but I can either live in that miserable hell of Dysphoria or I can be me. I understand our cultures are going to be different but it is very very rare for me to note anyone openly ridiculing me. Whether or not they are doing it behind my back...well...so what, let them.

You have the right to be you and to live an authentic life. No one has the right to decide or try and take that from you.

Quote from: kelly_aus on July 19, 2017, 06:17:09 PM
Confidence is the keystone to passing, irrespective of looks, without confidence in who you are, there is no passing.

While confidence helps with passing , it alone is not sufficient... Those that have too many prominent physical tells WILL get read regardless of confidence level... that goes for voice and manor as well.

30 years ago passing was a lot easier... but with the widespread T* awareness that now exists the physical is bigger a factor than ever...

That said, the consequences of getting read are a Lot less in many places now than they were.


- Karen

Quote from: Karen_A on July 19, 2017, 08:50:45 PM
While confidence helps with passing , it alone is not sufficient... Those that have too many prominent physical tells WILL get read regardless of confidence level... that goes for voice and manor as well.

30 years ago passing was a lot easier... but with the widespread T* awareness that now exists the physical is bigger a factor than ever...

That said, the consequences of getting read are a Lot less in many places now than they were.


- Karen

Based on my own personal experiences and the experiences of others I know personally, I'll disagree. I'm a walking advertisement of physical tells.. And my voice? Don't ask about that. And yet, I've not been run out of the ladies room or had any similar issues. I can only attribute it to owning who I am, it's not my looks that get me in the door.

EDIT: But hey, I've only been living as a woman for 7 years, so maybe I'm just confused.

Quote from: Michelle_P on July 19, 2017, 10:58:21 AM
Not to put too fine a point on it, but welcome to the women's room.  This is true for all women in western culture, not just those of us who arrived at our femininity the long way around.  This isn't a passing issue, merely a part of living in a culture that treasures beauty far above skills, intelligence, or even humanity.

The problem isn't within us but within this sick culture.  We, like all women, have to find a way to survive within it.

It sounds, oddly enough, like you are putting considerable energy into researching and trying to validate a non-passing state, in spite of appearance.  That speaks to the degree of self-confidence that you project. 

Our self-confidence when we leave the confines or our home and venture out into the world matters far more than meeting this week's standards of beauty.  An utterly gorgeous woman stepping out into the world, who feels insecure and lacks confidence, or is the slightest bit 'off' arbitrary standards, will be clocked, will have her femininity questioned, whether or not she is trans. (Just look at the crazy media stuff about Lady Gaga.)

There are also folks out there with their own mental issues who will clock anyone that doesn't meet their particular standards, and push to extremes.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/woman-mistaken-transgender-harassed-walmart-bathroom-article-1.2638748

We'll get clocked occasionally.  So will ciswomen.  Do what they do, and laugh it off.

I am a woman.

I am a lesbian.

I am transgender.

Nobody else gets to deny me any of these things.  Oh, they may have their opinions, but they don't change me.  I KNOW who I am. 

Have confidence in who you are.  (And carry pepper spray for the persistent crazies...)

On close inspection, anyone can tell I'm male.
My face is still very strong along with my body. The evidence I use to prove people wrong is https://www.humanics-es.com/ADA316646.pdf
Almost all of my measurements fall into the 50%+ percentile in the male category. Genetics screwed me HARD. VERY VERY HARD. Makes me wonder why I even did this in the first place?

Edie: actually it depends on the area of my body. Some get 10-20% male and others get higher. Some are in female range but that is only for girls who are HUGE.

Quote from: Angieisalone on June 19, 2017, 04:59:52 PM
So I learned that I really don't pass even after having ffs.
Had a co-worker talked to be about same-sex marriage and asked me when I was going to get married to my bf.
All of that hard work for nothing and now I feel like a failure.

I'm having thoughts of just taking estrogen but going back to living socially as male.
I don't want to but being clocked is severely depressing.

So how do I learn to live as a non-passing trans person?

Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it, and guess what? People treat me fine. People hold doors for me. Life is a mirror, put a sour face forward and you'll get sour faces back. Smile, and the world smiles with you. Best wishes.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 20, 2017, 06:48:32 AM
Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 20, 2017, 06:48:32 AM
Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it, and guess what? People treat me fine. People hold doors for me. Life is a mirror, put a sour face forward and you'll get sour faces back. Smile, and the world smiles with you. Best wishes.

Hugs, Devlyn

Not where I live. Where I live gender presentation must be on point because if it isn't, you're dicked.

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 11, 2017, 09:05:27 AM
Passing is determined by you not by others. I used to think if strangers look at me funny then I do not pass. If family, friends, and co workers think I dont pass its because they know who you are.

Looks is only one aspect as others have pointed out. Most tg THINK they have some non passing looks that cannot be physically changed. Height, feet, hands, shoulders, face, chest etc. Some features can be changed. Remember there are so many cis females with what you call male features, they dont get upset. Remember over time on hrt you will change shape and your skin texture will soften your look, loss of muscle bulk will make your shoulders feminine. Your face shape looks passable already.

How do you walk, how you act, how you speak, cough, laugh. How you engage a conversation with a male, female, gay etc.These are the non passing aspects that most strangers pick up on, these aspects can be changed by hard work.

Passing is NOT being pretty, its to look female and act female. Are you talking about looking like a hot female? Thats not passing.

Which are all fine and yet people can still tell. It's because of my body and don't say hrt helps because it doesn't. Been on it for almost 5 years and lost no muscle. Can still lift 150+ lbs with no problem and I don't even work out my upper body at all. I have to wear a women's M because of my stupid shoulders and I hate it. Why can't I be a S?

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 20, 2017, 10:42:57 AM

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on July 20, 2017, 06:48:32 AM
Honey, I'm neither male nor female. Living in the middle ain't the end of the world. I just own it, and guess what? People treat me fine. People hold doors for me. Life is a mirror, put a sour face forward and you'll get sour faces back. Smile, and the world smiles with you. Best wishes.

Hugs, Devlyn

Not where I live. Where I live gender presentation must be on point because if it isn't, you're dicked.

Then you should go full male. Easier to pull off. I'm responding to the question you asked, not the side discussion about passing or not.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 11, 2017, 07:58:49 AM
Passing to me is everything. If you pass, people will be less to bother you. People will treat you better.

You're giving other people the power to make or break you.  Don't do that.

If you genuinely want to know how to live the non-passing life, it starts with you being okay with yourself as a trans person.  At some point, you realize that it's pretty cool to be trans and you start to rock it.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 20, 2017, 10:50:44 AM
Which are all fine and yet people can still tell. It's because of my body and don't say hrt helps because it doesn't. Been on it for almost 5 years and lost no muscle. Can still lift 150+ lbs with no problem and I don't even work out my upper body at all. I have to wear a women's M because of my stupid shoulders and I hate it. Why can't I be a S?

Sweetie, I'm an L/XL.  These are sizes that women come in.

Quote from: kelly_aus on July 19, 2017, 09:46:36 PM
Based on my own personal experiences and the experiences of others I know personally, I'll disagree. I'm a walking advertisement of physical tells.. And my voice? Don't ask about that. And yet, I've not been run out of the ladies room or had any similar issues. I can only attribute it to owning who I am, it's not my looks that get me in the door.

EDIT: But hey, I've only been living as a woman for 7 years, so maybe I'm just confused.

I'm sorry, but if you are a walking advertisement of tells then people will be able to read you, regardless of how aware you are of those social cues. It's subconscious, it only takes a cursory glance or hearing the sound of your voice. And I find people, most people actually, will be polite to trans folk nowadays, even if many don't really believe it's a real thing but are past the point of caring. And considering the length some social justice warriors go to claim everything and every little action is transphobic (micro-agressions), even asking questions, I would say most people are actually afraid of talking to an openly trans person, because they feel they have to walk on eggshells to talk to us. Passing does not equate to confidence. Otherwise, how many genetic girls would be clocked because they're insecure? It doesn't make sense to me.

A size M is not too big at all. M is quite normal for women close to or above 5'7 (170cm) tall.  And even short women with very large breasts. I wear S most of the time but some fitting tops have to be M, because they are too tight. I don't feel bad about it at all. How tall are you, Angieisalone? I'm in Europe, though. Don't know if it's different in tha USA.

I agree that confidence is the key. Confidence will not make you 'un-clockable' or more female looking, it will however make others give you respect , and your confidence in being a woman will inspire all cis-women because too many of them lack confidence because they too feel never beautiful enough.

To this day, I will never forget my first encounter with a trans woman in 1989 (a long time ago but she impressed me, I almost wanted to be a woman after I met her). She was easily 6 ft tall, built like a powerlifter and had a voice to match. But she exuded confidence along with warmth and charm. And she commanded respect.  I've never encountered cis-women with this nature.

It took me a while to realise ( being somewhat autistic) that she was trans ( actually my sister who has always been more perceptive, had to explain to me later).

If we as trans people can exude self-confidence of this magnitude ( and it can be practiced and improved over time; just fake it until you make it) in our daily lives, then we will be recognized for who we are. I'm not saying we will suddenly pass, but we will not become victims of abuse. We will be respected because it is obvious that we will take no ->-bleeped-<- and have a right to walk on this earth just like everybody else. We will also help educate cis people that we are really just like everybody else; we will give confidence to younger trans people and pave the way for them to grow up into who they really are.

We can say a lot on this topic. But I will say that confidence is the key. Work on that. Walk tall and look the world straight in the eye.

Quote from: kelly_aus on July 19, 2017, 09:46:36 PM
EDIT: But hey, I've only been living as a woman for 7 years, so maybe I'm just confused.

Been 20 years for me... Sure does not seem that long!

- karen

Quote from: coldHeart on July 19, 2017, 06:35:16 PM
So if you are impassable like me & its all about confidence! How the f##k do I get it can I buy it from some one because that great man in the sky is a calling my name, sisters like me or Louth me  I really do need your help

Sara My Dear Sister!!!

Some heavy duty wisdom is being laid out in this thread!!! Worthy of re-reading to let it soak in my friend!!!

Kelly_aus...

QuoteI found life was much easier when I stopped worrying about whether I passed or not. I know who and what I am and have the confidence to back that up. I'm not beautiful, at least not by modern societal standards, but I'm happy. Do I get clocked? Yeah, probably, but it's been a very long time since it's happened in a way that I notice.

I now live the boringly normal life of an Aussie lesbian. Yawn. But as I read this thread, I see a recurring theme, even among those with a feminine appearance, that there is a very obvious lack of confidence with some of you - and that's what is: A) getting you clocked and B) is obvious to all who give you more than a fleeting glance.

Confidence is the keystone to passing, irrespective of looks, without confidence in who you are, there is no passing. Or you can just stop worrying about it - but that requires confidence too.

Elkie T...

QuoteYou cannot buy it honey, but you can grow your own in your little garden. When I am out, any time I was scared of doing something because of insecurity or shame, and I caught myself in being scared, I'll force myself to do it. Once done, it ain't scary anymore and your confidence grows.

I knew I cannot pass since age 16 (maybe that's why I did not seek transition then, or lack of knowledge of medical miracles making it possible). Still, how often you see cis-girls over 6' tall? Whatever, I decided that I won't even look for passability, but rather focus on me looking sexy and confident trans-lady, and not a cross dresser who is ashamed of himself and go deep length to unsuccessfully hide all male traces to the point of suffering from physical self-torture (not that I haven't tried that route first).

As soon as I stopped pretending that I am a cis-female and started presenting myself as a trans-female who knows she's cute but doesn't care if other people approve her, people (regular people on streets and everywhere) started to approve me and give me lots of praise and compliments )

Elizabeth K...

QuoteI don't care if I am clocked or not.... actually that is not completely true, I do care sometimes. But I used to care that I was getting clocked...all...the....time. but now I care far less about it and just get on with my life. I am still just into my Second year on HRT and living fulltime only a number of months. I try to be confident(fake it till you make it) and  don't appear androgynous. I simply wear what most women of my age and statue would wear.

Anyone making a cursory glance at me would clock me, but I can either live in that miserable hell of Dysphoria or I can be me. I understand our cultures are going to be different but it is very very rare for me to note anyone openly ridiculing me. Whether or not they are doing it behind my back...well...so what, let them.

You have the right to be you and to live an authentic life. No one has the right to decide or try and take that from you.

Yet more wisdom from Kelly!!!!....

QuoteBased on my own personal experiences and the experiences of others I know personally, I'll disagree. I'm a walking advertisement of physical tells.. And my voice? Don't ask about that. And yet, I've not been run out of the ladies room or had any similar issues. I can only attribute it to owning who I am, it's not my looks that get me in the door.

All of these words speak well to the roadblock you feel stands before you Sara!!! There are ways around the obstacles and there are options!!!... We transition to be ourselves after a lifetime of hiding and I want you to consider deeply the thought that maybe a happy and amazing life can be experienced without passing 100% of the time to 100% of the people....

You walked down the street to your meeting recently without a problem and were so confident and happy in the days that followed... That could be every day of your life and I so hope that you feel somewhere inside that maybe there is the slightest chance that this is true!!!!

With Love and Hope,

Ashley 😀❤️🌻