Okay, I placed my original thoughts in a separate thread just to not add to what seems always to be a topic that courts flames, especially with the stipulations attached to the OP. And the further encouragement to volatile ideas that have been presented in argumentative fashion.

But licensing? Sure, and, to be honest, perhaps we should also be given colored triangles we can wear on our clothing. Out of historical precedence I suggest that we reservfe pink for gay males and black for lesbian or 'lesbian-looking' women.

Other colored triangles can be discussed for MTFs in various stages of presentability and surgical congruence. We can discover other appropriate triangles for all the other 'types' of gender-variant or sexually birth-defective individuals.

The we are allowed, perhaps, to argue over which colored triangles deserve 'pride-of-place' in some hierarchy of value.

Good grief!! Real ID is not enough, now we require bathroom and shower-room attendants with law-enforcement credentialing to decide who goes where? Perhaps Homeland Security can work out the details. 

Has anyone considered common-sense and their current ability to go where they go without causing a disturbance. 

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on February 16, 2008, 03:08:14 PM
But licensing? Sure, and, to be honest, perhaps we should also be given traingles we can wear on our clothing. Out of historical precedence I suggest that we reservfe pink for gay males and black for lesbian or 'lesbian-looking' women.

Perhaps a poor choice of words.

The desired end-state is a system that will allow serious transitioners who are pre-op to use the restroom appropriate to their gender and, if someone claims they are in the wrong place, they have a legal defense for using that restroom.

An example: Jane Doe had been in RLT for 3 months now.  She walks into the mall restroom, and is clocked by a 6-year-old girl who says in a screechy voice that carries, "Mommy, what's that man doing in here?"  And worst case, everybody hears, and stops talking, and all eyes are on Jane.  The mall security arrives.

I would like a system that's fundie-proof that gets Jane out of trouble.  She may be able to show a drivers' license with the proper gender marker, but if the situation spins out of control, I want there to be a system where she can produce a special document that law enforcement will recognize and let her off the hook.

Can anyone come up with such a system that:

--Doesn't automatically out her to everybody when used (Yeah, the cops'll know, and will need training in respecting trans persons.)

--Isn't subject to other breaches of privacy information.

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas on this matter.

Perhaps this should be in a different topic.

=K

Thats what I meant too, not a person licsening system, and bathroom one hehe, sorry for the confusion.

I have been approached twice by security and asked to leave, I mean I just say Ok and walk out and go to the nearest restroom, but it happens, and frankly I dont wanna have to leave, I could really use a document that just says, she is allowed to be here..

It would be nice, and I can only dream...

Posted on: February 16, 2008, 03:40:35 PM

---

Oh shoot I accidentally reposted on this subject, consider this the last one...

Sorry, sorry, sorry

Quote from: Karen on February 16, 2008, 03:23:48 PM
Can anyone come up with such a system that:

--Doesn't automatically out her to everybody when used (Yeah, the cops'll know, and will need training in respecting trans persons.)

--Isn't subject to other breaches of privacy information.

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas on this matter.

Perhaps this should be in a different topic.

=K

Honestly my best idea for this is singular restrooms, instead of stalls in one big room.  More privacy for everyone, it'd eliminate ALL sorts of problems, not even trans related:

Single mom out with her 7 or 8 year old son and he has to use the restroom.  Thats a bit young to be going into bathrooms by yourself especially in busy places like malls, airports etc... the potential for abduction or other abuse is high.   So, what does Mom do?  Takes him into the womens room with her, which isn't the place for an 8 year old boy either.

SOME places have "family restrooms" which usually ARE just as I said, single room bathroom, with a toilet and a sink.  Instead of segregating those with 'special needs' (gender, children whatever)  why not make -every- bathroom a "family" bathroom.

I can emphathize with Ms. Doe's problem. Plus, she may well be feeling a lot of trepidation just to use a gendered bathroom she has never before used, or just recently begun to use. And her own nervousness can cause problems in that regard as well. (If you llok unsure, others pick up on that and wonder why you are unsure, spending more time analyzing the fearful persona and maybe eventually making that very frightening cascade of occurences happen.

But, I am leery of the licensing aspects. Already our papaer-trails are getting larger and then this layer will just leave more room for outing and heartbreak I am afraid. I still prefer common-sense and confidence-building.

Of course, I also prefer not having to deal with cops anytime at all. Apologies to anyone who either is or loves one, but so many tend to be pathological in some way or another. I tend to be more comfy with the crimis instead.

N~

When confronted by the young child, you need to have a comeback. Maybe, the nerve of your child, my God, I'm so embarressed. Look distraught like this has happened before. What would a lady do when she has masculine features. She wouldn't run out of the restroom. If security came, you don't have to give ID, just tell them off. Now, if the police came, then you might need something. A letter from your therapist could answer all their questions. It shouldn't get that far. Just be calm and dignafied. Until you are comfortable going in the your expressed gender's restroom, go in and do what you have to do and leave. Don't wait around and fix your makeup unless there isn't anyone in there. When you get comfortable, you won't be clocked.
Sheila

Quote from: Alison on February 16, 2008, 03:59:52 PM

Quote from: Karen on February 16, 2008, 03:23:48 PM
Can anyone come up with such a system that:

--Doesn't automatically out her to everybody when used (Yeah, the cops'll know, and will need training in respecting trans persons.)

--Isn't subject to other breaches of privacy information.

I look forward to your thoughts and ideas on this matter.

Perhaps this should be in a different topic.

=K

Honestly my best idea for this is singular restrooms, instead of stalls in one big room.  More privacy for everyone, it'd eliminate ALL sorts of problems, not even trans related:

Single mom out with her 7 or 8 year old son and he has to use the restroom.  Thats a bit young to be going into bathrooms by yourself especially in busy places like malls, airports etc... the potential for abduction or other abuse is high.   So, what does Mom do?  Takes him into the womens room with her, which isn't the place for an 8 year old boy either.

SOME places have "family restrooms" which usually ARE just as I said, single room bathroom, with a toilet and a sink.  Instead of segregating those with 'special needs' (gender, children whatever)  why not make -every- bathroom a "family" bathroom.

That would be more difficult in high volume places like stadiums and parks.

Although I could see a row of small, individual doors that had a communal sink area.
That might work.
Sort of like the stalls we have now, but with acual rows of outside doors not just inside stall doors.

Maybe?
Sara

I'm probably very lucky as I have never had any problems in female restrooms.

I did used to get thrown out of male restrooms before I started transition and men complaining 'there's a girl in here'.....

^ when that happens you should know without doubt that you pass and your percieved as a woman.

why not make -every- bathroom a "family" bathroom. - Easy, money.  It would take more space and more materials.

It doesn't take that much more space if any Tekla.
Also, with the necessity of accomodating wheelchairs, it
could actually take less space.
Most restrooms, except maybe at stadiums are empty
most of the time, have lots and lots of wasted space for
corridors especially if they have to be accessible,
in front of the sinks, for privacy, the stalls are not
in front of the door or there is a second wall, etc.

In the women's room, I don't see much loss in efficiency.

In the men's room, because urinals are so efficient and
take so little space, they're space savers for sure.
But, men's bathroom are often the same size as women
ones even if men don't use the stalls as often: again
that's lost space.

Nobody really studies restroom traffic that much. But,
I'd bet that outside a few peak times, family restroom
are more efficient both economically and practically.

That's probably why they are getting more and more
frequent here in Montreal.

I do not see need for retro modding our restrooms into a new fashion...

It would never really catch either...

I just think that legal protection for transitioners, or other "situation" people should be in order...

Quote from: Berliegh on February 17, 2008, 04:34:00 AM
I'm probably very lucky as I have never had any problems in female restrooms.

I did used to get thrown out of male restrooms before I started transition and men complaining 'there's a girl in here'.....

Wow you must have naturally looked really feminine. 


Anyways.  I agree with Alison.  The best answer to this silliness is private bathrooms for everyone.  All you would need to do is finish the stalls down to the floor and door, get rid of the urinal walls, and then probably put a guard on watch(this is for big places) for the community area.  I think they do this in Europe actually.

Ideally though most places are small enough that they already have single occupancy bathrooms.  Then you just need to take down the gender markers outside and people can use whichever one is empty.

It feels so childish to be still worried about bathroom issues as adults.  Segregating bathrooms by gender sounds like something a pre-school teacher came up with.

Quote from: Keira on February 17, 2008, 01:22:29 PM
Nobody really studies restroom traffic that much. But,
I'd bet that outside a few peak times, family restroom
are more efficient both economically and practically.

The issue of 'potty parity' has been brought up before.  Here's but one example:

'Potty parity' aims to remedy long lines

By Matt Bradley | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

""There's always this conversation, this conspiracy" among women waiting in line for the bathroom, [Kari Roberts of Reading, Mass] says. "Women are always asking: 'Is there anyone in the men's room? Can we go in there and take it over?'"

When it came to restrooms, architects (and lawyers) used to think in terms of square footage rather than number of outlets - or physiology. But studies show that because women have different needs, on average they spend twice as much time in the bathroom as men, causing longer lines.

In her 1988 graduate thesis, Sandra Rawls of the Virginia Polytechnic Institute timed how long it took hundreds of men and women to answer nature's call. Her observations of the time disparity between the sexes explains the long lines for women."

Karen

Ive got a field trip coming up at uni... 6 days.... im utterly terrified, because my uni is so accepting....
No 'you must use the mens'
no 'here use this neutral stuff'
But they just threw me in with the girls.
Now nobody on my course knows, atleast i don't think they do (changed course)
SO...
sharing with 6 girls in a room... then communal bathroom facilities, and washroom etc..... obviously stalled showers... but still... thanks to society, im terrified about this. What if someone finds out? is horrified by my presence? is nice and vocal? thier problem or not, it could cause me a lot of trouble.
you know what? i shouldn't be scared... i have the same fugging right as every other girl to use that restroom and shower block... they just had that right longer...
its society's damn problem. NOT ours....
Actual transsexual people are choosing nothing, they are not perverts. and they are not doing it for kicks....
Transsexuals should be allowed the right restroom by right.... what effort is a letter?
CDs, TVs, etc, HAVE NO RIGHT to the womens room.... you are not women, your out dressed? tough! hold it!
Thanks to you lot, society sees all percived gender variants, as in it for the kicks....
tbh they ahve more to worry from the lesbians... but nobody thinks about banning gays from the restroom of thier sex do they?
oh well.
This might sound like a rant, well it is. I dont really care if i might upset one or two, some things need to be said, and at the end of the day. People want to cry about thier rights... why not think about someone elses? and if your supposed right impinges on thiers...
equality isnt equal.
R >

Quote from: Rachael on February 17, 2008, 02:23:23 PM

CDs, TVs, etc, HAVE NO RIGHT to the womens room.... you are not women, your out dressed? tough! hold it!

Wow.  So CDs, TVs--have no right to relieve their bladder in a restroom?  Wonderful world you're striving for there.
Good luck on your trip, and I hope the girl's sharing a shower with you are way more understanding than you are.

Also, when did your writing style abruptly change?  You didn't used to have as many typos and spacing errors in your posts.  I was wondering if your keyboard broke or if it was intentional and why?

tvs and cds do have a right, just not in the womens, as they aren't....

and im snowed under with flu, and clearly not paying enough attention, sorry.
R >

A CD who identifies as male is a man.
And most of them also look like men (that's a fact).
Why on earth should putting on a dress get you access
to the women's restroom?

As I said, the only real solution is neutral single stall rooms with corridor access.
This solves all problems and is probably also the most efficient way to do things.

ive yet to meet a crossdresser who doesnt id as male....
surely if a cd ids as female, thier transsexual...?

thats entirely what i meant k... thankyou for shortening my flu ravaged rant....
men in mens room, women in womensroom...
R >

not true,

I agree with Racheal here CD, TV, do not have right to use the restroom of thier presentation.


But All that really needs to be done is a Legal Licensing system for TS woman and men that says they have legally been deemed eligable to be in that restroom...

Seems alot easier to set up.