Quote from: elkie-t on July 21, 2017, 03:33:44 PM
I mentioned Homeini for the sake of argument if you ever would want to challenge your mom's religious beliefs, not because i think Iranian government is great, nor because I thought it would bear any validation for you (since you mentioned being an atheist)


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Oh okay, thank you! I'll try to remember that.

I'm non-affiliated with any church self-proclaimed Christian, yet when I need I'm an atheist or a Muslim I find all religions are about the same guy and I don't subscribe to anything priests tell us about the guy, only to what I believe. (Which is that the God is merciful and oft-forgiving for our sins).


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Quote from: N A on July 21, 2017, 12:22:09 PM

I agree that financial independece is important. Other than that, I will have to respectfully disagree; no 16yo should have to work hard in order to prove anything to their parents. If you find school easy and have no trouble getting high grades that's great, but some may struggle with school for one reason or other. Those people are no less deserving and should not feel that they are less deserving than anyone else. It's the parents' job to love their child and prove them they're worthy; not the other way around.

I think the biggest issue with this right now is that it is (generally speaking from only MY experience, this isn't from statistics or research) more difficult for FtMs as far as family and society goes, at least at the very beginning. MtF's (from my POV) seem to have it a little easier in one sense, since they don't have to prove anything to people. My MtF friend (here-on referred to as A.), who still presents as a man most of the time, doesn't ever seem to have issues with people believing her, they just kind of take it. But with me, even though I dress like a guy and keep my hair cut short and take on as much of the appearance as I can 24/7, am constantly getting berated with questions, every time I tell someone, about how I can be sure I'm trans and not just really butch. Its almost like we have to prove that we're men to the world somehow, or we're written off. It feels like its more difficult for people to see and accept my masculinity than for people to see and accept her femininity for some reason. I think it goes back to traditional gender roles and responsibilities still being prevalent thoughts- men have to prove themselves worthy of being men, while women have never really had that expectation. Its almost like I missed this deciding secret trial when I was a teenager or something, and it makes me less valid to other men, and even some women. I just don't see A. having that issue, though. And if she does, she doesn't talk about it.
Again, this is just my experience. It could be completely different for someone else. Feel free to share your conclusive/ disputing experiences with me, I'd like to hear them.

Quote from: dusty97 on July 22, 2017, 07:17:38 AM
I think the biggest issue with this right now is that it is (generally speaking from only MY experience, this isn't from statistics or research) more difficult for FtMs as far as family and society goes, at least at the very beginning. MtF's (from my POV) seem to have it a little easier in one sense, since they don't have to prove anything to people. My MtF friend (here-on referred to as A.), who still presents as a man most of the time, doesn't ever seem to have issues with people believing her, they just kind of take it. But with me, even though I dress like a guy and keep my hair cut short and take on as much of the appearance as I can 24/7, am constantly getting berated with questions, every time I tell someone, about how I can be sure I'm trans and not just really butch. Its almost like we have to prove that we're men to the world somehow, or we're written off. It feels like its more difficult for people to see and accept my masculinity than for people to see and accept her femininity for some reason. I think it goes back to traditional gender roles and responsibilities still being prevalent thoughts- men have to prove themselves worthy of being men, while women have never really had that expectation. Its almost like I missed this deciding secret trial when I was a teenager or something, and it makes me less valid to other men, and even some women. I just don't see A. having that issue, though. And if she does, she doesn't talk about it.
Again, this is just my experience. It could be completely different for someone else. Feel free to share your conclusive/ disputing experiences with me, I'd like to hear them.

Agree. Also seems less likely a trans woman will be told if their sure they're not just a really feminine gay man than a trans man being told if their sure they're not really a butch lesbian.

When I came out I was told by my dad to go to a lesbian social group to see if I'm really just gay; even though I sent him an email with a lengthy explanation a week before 

Hi Eli 

Welcome to Susan's Place    Glad to have you here, join on in the fun

Hugs

V M

Quote from: V M on July 22, 2017, 01:13:55 PM
Hi Eli 

Welcome to Susan's Place    Glad to have you here, join on in the fun

Hugs

V M

Thank you!

Quote from: dragonsgrace on July 21, 2017, 03:27:50 PM
I love drawing with all of my heart but my parents always sound disappointed when I say I want to go to art school for college, yet they celebrate when I win awards..   so, yeah. They've given me a lot of doubt about my career choice.

I think most parents are that way. I believe it's often just because they are worried that their children may make not-so-wise choices in life, not so much because they would be judgmental as such.

If drawing makes you happy then you should continue drawing But it might be good to keep in mind that once your hobby becomes your job, chances are it won't be as satisfying as it used to, what with the pressures and financial instability etc. But for some people that might actually work just fine. In any case, the decision is ultimately yours to make. Although if your parents are paying for your education, they may have something to say as well - if you don't agree with them then you may just need to find other ways to finance your studies. I'm not that familiar with American university system, but maybe there are some scholarships you could apply for, or something? I don't know.

Kendra had also a very good point about undergrad degree in arts or history being a good foundation for something else, if you later decide to pursue another career. So there's that, too.

Quote from: dusty97 on July 22, 2017, 07:17:38 AM
I think the biggest issue with this right now is that it is (generally speaking from only MY experience, this isn't from statistics or research) more difficult for FtMs as far as family and society goes, at least at the very beginning. MtF's (from my POV) seem to have it a little easier in one sense, since they don't have to prove anything to people. ... Feel free to share your conclusive/ disputing experiences with me, I'd like to hear them.

Looks like we are talking two different things here, unless you're suggesting that good grades and profitable career are masculine things first and foremost and therefore would help to prove your "masculinity" to your parents. To me it is not so; if anything, it's the girls who get the highest grades and get to study in the best schools these days! Or that has been the trend over here at least, about other countries I have no idea.

The comment you quoted above was my response to elkie-t's suggestion that dragonsgrace should start with graduating in top of the class and going for a profitable degree in order to prove their parents that they are a guy. To me this is very foreign concept, as I believe one's masculinity or femininity is independent of one's career choice and grades.

Quote from: N A on July 23, 2017, 03:08:52 AM
Looks like we are talking two different things here, unless you're suggesting that good grades and profitable career are masculine things first and foremost and therefore would help to prove your "masculinity" to your parents. To me it is not so; if anything, it's the girls who get the highest grades and get to study in the best schools these days! Or that has been the trend over here at least, about other countries I have no idea.

The comment you quoted above was my response to elkie-t's suggestion that dragonsgrace should start with graduating in top of the class and going for a profitable degree in order to prove their parents that they are a guy. To me this is very foreign concept, as I believe one's masculinity or femininity is independent of one's career choice and grades.

We probably are, considering that's not how I understood the conversation. What you're saying makes sense, and everybody has to prove to their parents that thy can be independent one way or another.
Though what I'm talking about is, indeed, proving masculinity- and the difficulty of it compared to proving femininity- if a MtF is ever even asked to. It seems to be less common that A. gets asked than I do, and when she does, it's a far less intense interrogation, and people are more inclined to accept her and use her preferred pronouns (even though, as said above, she doesn't present 90% of the time), than they are for me (being near-passing, presenting 100% of the time). It just feels almost discriminatory, or like being MtF is okay but FtM not so much, because we don't have this unknown right of passage into the brotherhood or something. But I get the same thing from women, too (though less often than other men), so I don't know where it stems from.
But now I feel like I'm off the topic of the OP.
There was misunderstanding, though, and I agree with you that grades/ career have nothing to do with masculinity/ femininity, and America is slowly starting to move in the direction of that line of thinking.