Quote from: Angieisalone on July 24, 2017, 06:01:04 AM
Because of this, i detransitioned socially due to genetics not wanting to be female.

I can't say for sure how things will work out for you, but I think the probability is high that eventually you will transition again and bitterly resent teh years you wasted...

I have a body that is MUCH more problematic than yours... and that is why I did not transition until I was 42 (which was 20 years ago)... I thought it was a crazy impossible thing for me, and I was dealing with gender dysphoria in grammar school...

I made myself bury it and try to get on with life... but eventually I got to the point that I could not function without dealing with it... All that lost time made things a lot harder and my life  a lot more complicated...

All that said, from what I can see, IMO you SHOULD be be able to pas as gg with your body and I think YOU just have to believe that is possible... You need to judge where you are by how people react and interact with you instead of judging yourself against unrealistic ideals... If You can't do it now. I suspect it's not because of of the physical... and the rough edges can be taken of by living full time a year or two...

I know you can take this in right now... That's OK ... Just don't forget these words and keep checking how you feel living as male...

You say you prefer that with your body... If that really is OK with you then IMO  you SHOULD STAY THAT WAY NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK!

IMO only those that can't deal with living in their birth sex should transition. Life is a lot simpler that way no matter how one looks.


My 2 cents.
- karen

I went from a 62 year old balding dude to 63 year old woman, a genuine weird old lady. I like to think I mostly pass, but I get called on gender by strangers often enough to know better after over a year of HRT.  Most of the improvement, honestly, is in makeup skills, wardrobe, and deportment (movement and behaviors).

None the less, I refuse to go back. I know my identity, who I am, and have accepted myself.

After all those decades of self-denial and trying to pass as male, surrendering to myself, finding self-acceptance and abandoning the tremendous effort to maintain self-loathing and denial, I have found inner peace and happiness.

This is a wonderful thing, and I heartily reject the opinions of others who seek to deny me or drag me down. No one has the right to deny my existence.

Oh, others may seek to socially reject me, or even foolishly legislate me away. They cannot alter my inner convictions. They cannot deny me myself.

That ultimately is what self-acceptance can bring us.

I seek to improve my appearance, and my social acceptance, as a necessity for my own safety while I live in a transphobic culture. That is why I seek FFS, and part of why I seek GCS. (I'd also like my clothes to fit better, and remove my physical gender incongruity.)

Living in a transphobic culture does not mean I need to internalize its transphobia. I seek to alter that through my activism and by living as my authentic self, in full public view in spite of the risks. I'm not foolish about the risks, of course, but I do not hide myself away either.

How do I live a non-passing life?  By living.  It's as simple as that, and as challenging as that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 24, 2017, 02:26:08 PM
And I disagree with you.

Hi Angie,

Yeah, that is a tough call, and it really goes to the heart of whether you consider being female a social role or an immutable and innate signature of gender, or something else.  I consider myself a transsexual female. Not AFAB. I am not equivalent to a cis-gender woman. That is not my life.  That is not how I got here.  That is not who I am.

I do agree that one is less likely to get treated like a female if you don't fit a gender-binary stereotype.  That's not a judgement, that's just the way it is.  Transgenders are a fraction of a percent of the population. We are statistical outliers, by definition. In a perfect world, it would not matter, but no one owes us acceptance. We take this path because we answer to ourselves, and no one else.

Personally, I think you are way too hard on yourself, but all I know of you is your avatar and the pictures you have posted on imgur. I think you look pretty damn good.  We have been around the barn on this many times. You have said your voice is ruined.  Cindy, one of our mods, doesn't even have a larynx anymore. How feminine do you think she must sound now?  Do you think she accepts herself less as a woman because she doesn't have vocal chords? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to believe that social acceptance is the same thing as internal identity. You want validation above all else. What people here have been trying to tell you for dozens and dozens of posts is that no one can give you validation if you don't accept it.

With kindness,

Terri

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 24, 2017, 06:01:04 AM
While that is true that women get come in all shapes and sizes, if a woman has an inverted triangle or rectangle body type, that is just their genetics giving them the middle finger.
Because of this, i detransitioned socially due to genetics not wanting to be female. Sure I can take hrt and will continue to do so but I will never pass because of my body. Rather present as male than present as fenake with a extremely masculine body that makes NFL players blush.

So... I recall having seen your 'before' pictures and thinking, 'Man, what a tiny little dude'. Not to sound like a ****, but you are and were worlds away from making any NFL players blush, let alone any dudes in general.
Hell, I was bigger than you pre-T. You looked terribly out of place as a male but perfectly within the realm of normal/pleasant for a female. You look really good.

But a ton of people have said things similar to what I just said and you seem to want to consistently disregard any positive commentary so I'm not sure why I bothered.
It may have been the NFL player comment. You know those guys are like 6'2" -  6'6"+ and 300+ pounds, right? It would take three of you taped together to even remotely come close.

Quote from: Maybebaby56 on July 24, 2017, 06:49:42 PM
Hi Angie,

Yeah, that is a tough call, and it really goes to the heart of whether you consider being female a social role or an immutable and innate signature of gender, or something else.  I consider myself a transsexual female. Not AFAB. I am not equivalent to a cis-gender woman. That is not my life.  That is not how I got here.  That is not who I am.

I do agree that one is less likely to get treated like a female if you don't fit a gender-binary stereotype.  That's not a judgement, that's just the way it is.  Transgenders are a fraction of a percent of the population. We are statistical outliers, by definition. In a perfect world, it would not matter, but no one owes us acceptance. We take this path because we answer to ourselves, and no one else.

Personally, I think you are way too hard on yourself, but all I know of you is your avatar and the pictures you have posted on imgur. I think you look pretty damn good.  We have been around the barn on this many times. You have said your voice is ruined.  Cindy, one of our mods, doesn't even have a larynx anymore. How feminine do you think she must sound now?  Do you think she accepts herself less as a woman because she doesn't have vocal chords? 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to believe that social acceptance is the same thing as internal identity. You want validation above all else. What people here have been trying to tell you for dozens and dozens of posts is that no one can give you validation if you don't accept it.

With kindness,

Terri

I'm around this barn so many times because I feel I don't look female. I feel like andro at best.
My voice is the most important thing. I'm trying to become a teacher and don't want to freak kids out with my voice.

Quote from: Stone Magnum on July 26, 2017, 03:13:40 AM
So... I recall having seen your 'before' pictures and thinking, 'Man, what a tiny little dude'. Not to sound like a ****, but you are and were worlds away from making any NFL players blush, let alone any dudes in general.
Hell, I was bigger than you pre-T. You looked terribly out of place as a male but perfectly within the realm of normal/pleasant for a female. You look really good.

But a ton of people have said things similar to what I just said and you seem to want to consistently disregard any positive commentary so I'm not sure why I bothered.
It may have been the NFL player comment. You know those guys are like 6'2" -  6'6"+ and 300+ pounds, right? It would take three of you taped together to even remotely come close.

But I wasn't referring to weight or height. I'm talking about bone mass/width. For my frame at 5'9, 145lbs, my body is pretty broad. My shoulders are that of NFL Quarterback and that is a problem. I can only die into a women's M because of that and sure you can say a women's M is normal but there are only a few types of women that wear such a size. Those with big bones, athletic, big breasted or heaven set. I look like some athletic person and I don't even work out my torso, just my lower half. It gets annoying when I'm
Asked by people if I used to be a swimmer.

I know I can't shrink my shoulders and it hurts. I feel like a monster around the small
Cis women who can wear such great clothing that I can't because my shoulders won't let me.

I've been reading your posts. From just your avatar picture you look passable. Maybe post some other pictures.  Are you actually getting outed or do you just think you are? Strange looks don't count because there are any number of reasons people give looks. Has anyone ever called you Sir or he? Has anyone called you a man or a ->-bleeped-<- before?
Julia

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 31, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
I know I can't shrink my shoulders and it hurts. I feel like a monster around the small
Cis women who can wear such great clothing that I can't because my shoulders won't let me.

There are things you can do to reduce the appearance of broad shoulders.  The most important rule is not to show your bare shoulders.  Wearing a top with bare shoulders draws the eyes toward your shoulders, which makes your shoulders appear more broad.  Stay away from tank tops, cami's, cold-shoulder tops, sleeveless dresses, or any other style that shows your bare shoulders, unless you're wearing a blazer or cardigan over it.

Instead, wear styles that draw attention away from your shoulders.  You can do this by wearing scoop necks and V-necks, although the latter is better.  Boat neck tops will again draw attention to your shoulders so stay away from those.  And when buying these V-neck tops, always make sure they have a sleeve that covers your shoulders.

The top that you're wearing in your profile photo is exactly the type of clothing you do NOT want to wear when you're trying to draw attention away from your shoulders.  The eyes have nowhere to go except to look at your shoulders and the tattoo there.    Instead wear a V-neck with a nice necklace to draw attention toward your neckline instead.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 31, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
But I wasn't referring to weight or height. I'm talking about bone mass/width. For my frame at 5'9, 145lbs, my body is pretty broad. My shoulders are that of NFL Quarterback and that is a problem. I can only die into a women's M because of that and sure you can say a women's M is normal but there are only a few types of women that wear such a size. Those with big bones, athletic, big breasted or heaven set. I look like some athletic person and I don't even work out my torso, just my lower half. It gets annoying when I'm
Asked by people if I used to be a swimmer.

I know I can't shrink my shoulders and it hurts. I feel like a monster around the small
Cis women who can wear such great clothing that I can't because my shoulders won't let me.

Um... I'm 5'8", 136 lbs, and wear a women's M or L on top.

Pants are a size 4, so the hips are very definitely smaller than the shoulders.  Now, since we are worried about projecting that pesky triangular body shape, and narrowing the shoulders isn't practical, what shall we do?  What shall we do?

Widen the hips!  Or more accurately, alter the visual perception of hip width.  A non-tapered skirt, something like a lawn skirt (retro 50's look for a bonus) can help.  (Ashley, now you know WHY I'm rocking the skirt look!).  Alter the top style!  Cover the shoulders, and show more skin around the neck.  Cap sleeves, or better.  Try a v neck or scoop neck, and avoid tank tops and sleeveless.


See what that skirt does to hip width visually?

I dunno about big bones or athletics.  I think more along the lines of heaven set, or more accurately 'heaven sent'.  It is what it is, and I'll work it.

And yes, I know I still don't meet the high standards of passing some here hold with.  I haven't had anything beyond HRT yet, and FFS is at least 12-18 months out, if it happens at all.  (This depends on the mood of the government here, alas.  I'll be on a government funded and regulated medical program because of my age, and they get to decide what to cover, Standards of Care be damned.)

Women use careful wardrobe selection all the time to enhance and conceal features so they present their best.  This is just another of the skills we learn as part of socialization, either growing up or in our transition.

Oh, I still wear the skinny jeans out, because I still like how they look and feel, want to mix things up a bit, and really don't give a damn about the pass/fail criteria some folks promote.  I'm sort of cranky that way.

Quote from: Angieisalone on July 31, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
For my frame at 5'9, 145lbs, my body is pretty broad. My shoulders are that of NFL Quarterback and that is a problem. I can only die into a women's M because of that and sure you can say a women's M is normal but there are only a few types of women that wear such a size. Those with big bones, athletic, big breasted or heaven set. I look like some athletic person and I don't even work out my torso, just my lower half. It gets annoying when I'm
Asked by people if I used to be a swimmer.

I know I can't shrink my shoulders and it hurts. I feel like a monster around the small
Cis women who can wear such great clothing that I can't because my shoulders won't let me.

My cisgender fiancée is 5'4", 130lbs and wears a women's size medium more often than not because that size fits her shoulders and frame more comfortably. She looks perfectly proportional... just like you do in all the images I've seen.
Take a look around: A ton of women would die to fit into a M. Hell, pre-T, even when I was at my boniest/skinniest (105), I couldn't get into anything smaller than a L in female sizes because of my frame.

Women's sizes are a little ridiculous, anyway, and very brand/style/store dependent.
I wish I had a quarter for every time I heard her say something like "hahahah, I guess I'm an XL at this store. Oh well, it's cute". Someone that's 5'4" and 130lbs isn't an XL in any sense of the word... unless it comes to some brands of women's clothing.

Anyway, yeah... I'm still not buying the shoulder thing. Again, I have seen all your before/after pics that were posted a while ago and your shoulders just... no. Below average for a male, average for a female. I'm sorry that you're struggling with these feelings and I know external reassurance won't necessarily help, but I truly see a normal girl when I look at you.

If you're really struggling with the appearance of your shoulders, Michelle's suggestions are spot-on. Play with your wardrobe a bit and try not to get too tangled up in sizes.

Quote from: Julia1996 on July 31, 2017, 05:16:22 PM
I've been reading your posts. From just your avatar picture you look passable. Maybe post some other pictures.  Are you actually getting outed or do you just think you are? Strange looks don't count because there are any number of reasons people give looks. Has anyone ever called you Sir or he? Has anyone called you a man or a ->-bleeped-<- before?
Julia

Look up kyoryuviolet on ->-bleeped-<- for pics.
I do get misgendered sometimes.

Quote from: Michelle_P on July 31, 2017, 05:31:04 PM
Um... I'm 5'8", 136 lbs, and wear a women's M or L on top.

Pants are a size 4, so the hips are very definitely smaller than the shoulders.  Now, since we are worried about projecting that pesky triangular body shape, and narrowing the shoulders isn't practical, what shall we do?  What shall we do?

Widen the hips!  Or more accurately, alter the visual perception of hip width.  A non-tapered skirt, something like a lawn skirt (retro 50's look for a bonus) can help.  (Ashley, now you know WHY I'm rocking the skirt look!).  Alter the top style!  Cover the shoulders, and show more skin around the neck.  Cap sleeves, or better.  Try a v neck or scoop neck, and avoid tank tops and sleeveless.


See what that skirt does to hip width visually?

I dunno about big bones or athletics.  I think more along the lines of heaven set, or more accurately 'heaven sent'.  It is what it is, and I'll work it.

And yes, I know I still don't meet the high standards of passing some here hold with.  I haven't had anything beyond HRT yet, and FFS is at least 12-18 months out, if it happens at all.  (This depends on the mood of the government here, alas.  I'll be on a government funded and regulated medical program because of my age, and they get to decide what to cover, Standards of Care be damned.)

Women use careful wardrobe selection all the time to enhance and conceal features so they present their best.  This is just another of the skills we learn as part of socialization, either growing up or in our transition.

Oh, I still wear the skinny jeans out, because I still like how they look and feel, want to mix things up a bit, and really don't give a damn about the pass/fail criteria some folks promote.  I'm sort of cranky that way.

I already dress for my body. Very few items I wear that ever expose my shoulders

Quote from: Stone Magnum on August 01, 2017, 12:49:27 AM
My cisgender fiancée is 5'4", 130lbs and wears a women's size medium more often than not because that size fits her shoulders and frame more comfortably. She looks perfectly proportional... just like you do in all the images I've seen.
Take a look around: A ton of women would die to fit into a M. Hell, pre-T, even when I was at my boniest/skinniest (105), I couldn't get into anything smaller than a L in female sizes because of my frame.

Women's sizes are a little ridiculous, anyway, and very brand/style/store dependent.
I wish I had a quarter for every time I heard her say something like "hahahah, I guess I'm an XL at this store. Oh well, it's cute". Someone that's 5'4" and 130lbs isn't an XL in any sense of the word... unless it comes to some brands of women's clothing.

Anyway, yeah... I'm still not buying

the shoulder thing. Again, I have seen all your before/after pics that were posted a while ago and your shoulders just... no. Below average for a male, average for a female. I'm sorry that you're struggling with these feelings and I know external reassurance won't necessarily help, but I truly see a normal girl when I look at you.

If you're really struggling with the appearance of your shoulders, Michelle's suggestions are spot-on. Play with your wardrobe a bit and try not to get too tangled up in sizes.

If you won't buy it, then look at this photo and you'll understand https://ibb.co/ipDYc5
If my shoulders were average for females, they would be 14", not 17"
http://www.livestrong.com/article/484806-the-average-shoulder-width-for-females/

 

The additional picture only serves to reinforce that you have a far less challenging body to transition than most of us.  Maybe a little less time measuring the shoulders and a little more counting one's blessings?  Just sayin'....

Quote from: rmaddy on August 02, 2017, 05:48:27 PM


The additional picture only serves to reinforce that you have a far less challenging body to transition than most of us.  Maybe a little less time measuring the shoulders and a little more counting one's blessings?  Just sayin'....

You asked for it. Don't say I didn't warn you. https://ibb.co/jkfoS5

Like to also add: I told ya so.
Don't doubt me cause I will prove you wrong every time.  I told you stone and rmaddy.

Quote from: Angieisalone on August 02, 2017, 07:41:32 PM
You asked for it. Don't say I didn't warn you. https://ibb.co/jkfoS5

Um...  That could be my body.

It doesn't stop me.  I learn how to best dress my frame, and present myself as well as possible.  I like to believe I pass to the casual observer out on the street.  Attitude and movement, body language and poise have far more to do with passing than the ratio of shoulder to hip width.

I mean, come on!  Size 4 pant and a medium/large top?  But those are my sizes.  I try to make it work and get on with living my life.  I love being me, my authentic self, and won't give that up for anyone's arbitrary standards.

Quote from: Michelle_P on August 03, 2017, 05:46:58 PM
Um...  That could be my body.

It doesn't stop me.  I learn how to best dress my frame, and present myself as well as possible.  I like to believe I pass to the casual observer out on the street.  Attitude and movement, body language and poise have far more to do with passing than the ratio of shoulder to hip width.

I mean, come on!  Size 4 pant and a medium/large top?  But those are my sizes.  I try to make it work and get on with living my life.  I love being me, my authentic self, and won't give that up for anyone's arbitrary standards.

I was just proving a point on how bad my body truly is.
I wear a women's M and a size 6 pant

Envy. I wear a size 16 or XL top and my bottom is about 12 or 14 restricted by the waist size. No rear and moderate hips. I have a BMI of about 21 which means everything is in tall sizes and non tall sizes leave a bare midriff. No buying something off the rack as I need a tall shop or mail order. To not plan my clothing purchases a couple of weeks in advance and not be limited by the limited selection of tall sizes.

On the plus side, nobody ever comments that I am an Amazon, possibly because of my size.

I will say we are our own worst critics. you would be surprised that many times we pass.

Angie darling, it seems to me that in your mind somewhere you don't want to pass. No matter what anybody says, you shut them down, they are wrong. I've read this whole thread and don't need to see pictures to realize that in your mind you don't pass and never will. No matter what. Until you dig deep into your own head and find, and deal with the reason you don't want to pass, you will never be able to. Ladies, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm reading. There's been some fantastic advise in this thread. It's kept me from the pit of 'I'm hopeless" tonight. Angie accepts none of it, so???

Quote from: Angieisalone on August 02, 2017, 07:41:32 PM
You asked for it. Don't say I didn't warn you. https://ibb.co/jkfoS5

.... Yep. Looks like a girl to me. A cisgender girl, no less. What am I being warned about?
I hate to break this to you, but you have tiny little shoulders. If you were a male, you'd face endless criticism.

Are you scared of your femininity, perhaps?
I know it can be difficult to truly see the new image in the mirror but you seem to be struggling a good deal.

Quote from: Dani2118 on August 03, 2017, 10:32:40 PM
Angie darling, it seems to me that in your mind somewhere you don't want to pass. No matter what anybody says, you shut them down, they are wrong. I've read this whole thread and don't need to see pictures to realize that in your mind you don't pass and never will. No matter what. Until you dig deep into your own head and find, and deal with the reason you don't want to pass, you will never be able to. Ladies, correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I'm reading. There's been some fantastic advise in this thread. It's kept me from the pit of 'I'm hopeless" tonight. Angie accepts none of it, so???

I agree.  Sad, so sad but true.  Angie is on the brink of living her true self and denies herself that opportunity.  After so many posts she still does not let even one word into her created reality.  It is obviously not a different opinion or honest opinion she seeks.  She seeks confirmation of her opinions and we waste our time telling her otherwise.  And it is all her fear of what others MIGHT THINK.  Sad, so sad.
You can lead a horse to water but can't make her drink.