Your Testosterone is still high.  For some people that needs to get low to feel the mental changes.

Mine started at 29 nmol/l and ended at 0.1 nmol/l.  That took a while but within the first 60 days it had dropped to 6 nmol/l.

Because I was on a blocker as well as estradiol I can't say if things would have worked as well on just one or the other.


Conform and be dull. —James Frank Dobie, The Voice of the Coyote

I found some stuff out that helped with the process. One. It may have been predetermined from the care my mother received while I was in utero. DES was administered for prevention of miscarriages and stillbirths.  DES is a synthetic female hormone administered in dosages 3000 to 5000 times greater than birth control pills over an eight month period. This would effect the formation of brain function in the second and third trimesters. Two, I revealed myself to everyone that mattered. I came out and all the feelings of pressure to conceal my "secret"disappeared. Third Taking the first steps outside the comfort zone to enter the public as your female self. I found it very intimidating. First there was a crowd of kids and their mothers in the waiting room. But once you get past the stage fright which I am still struggling to do, after all I tried to be a man for 64 years, it gets easier and easier with each subsequent outing. Finding some support is also important. I was fortunate to have a really special lady as my voice and transition coach.
Did it all happen like a slap to the head? No much more subtle than that. My voice in my head keeps telling me I did the right thing. Another thing is I appreciate the plight just not for myself but for my trans brothers and sisters struggling for basic human rights. I now try to promote understanding and acceptance.

Quote from: Jayne01 on July 30, 2017, 01:32:56 PM
I'm clearly reacting badly, so I must be a cis male, right?

It's only a theory so it's not conclusive, but it's something to consider.
In conjunction with your desire to be a normal guy after 2 years of therapy, however, it does raise a red flag.

Have you been seeing the same therapist for 2 years? 

Quote from: Jayne01 on July 30, 2017, 07:03:33 AM
I was hoping the HRT would get rid of the dysphoria and stop me from thinking I should be a girl. Then I could just get on with being a normal guy.

From my understanding this is not the way feminizing therapy for gender dysphoria works.  Feminizing therapy helps one feel MORE like a girl and less like a guy.  It's medicine to make one's body appear more like a woman and less like a man.  Yes, there are many transgender women and non binary folks who take female hormones to ease there dysphoria and continue to live socially as males but it is the feminizing effects of estrogen that ease the dysphoria that they experience, and many wish to one day transition to a more female role socially.  In other words the feminizing effects like softer skin, less body hair, breast growth, etc. are welcome changes and while they might choose to present socially as a "normal guy" it is the effect of having a more female body that brings relief to the dysphoria associated with bodily manifestations of masculinity.

No, I have been seeing my current therapist since March 2016, and my previous therapist for about 9 months before that. The other two therapists I saw were just filling in the space while I was on a waiting list.

I could never relate to people who seemed so certain in their identity, the west they describe who they are on the inside. I have such a gigantic disconnect with who I am. No amount of therapy has been able to make me feel more connected with who I am. The best way I can describe myself is that I have no identity. I don't know what the hell I am.

Think about the things you like.
And make sure, that these are things you like, and not things you feel pressure to like or that you should like.

Now, out of all that list? is there anything that is "stereo typed" or "associated" with women?
ask your self, is it liking these things, that are making you feel, "not normal"

Because wanting to be normal, might be where you are going wrong. simple because, their is no such thing as normal.
Normal is in itself a stereotype, an image we have of something, and as such the way we think something should be.

But the truth of human beings is, we each and every one of us is different.
Dont try and be a normal guy, or a normal woman, this task, is impossible, no one is.

Instead focus on yourself, and be yourself, that is all we can be.
If you are a person that likes high heels, that is who you are, if you don't like heels, that is who you are.

It seams as though, you may feel pressure to have Hrt to be trans, or that enjoying Hrt will define you as trans.
Neither of these statements are true.

I would suggest, making a choice. Hrt or no Hrt? and go with the one you want, and if you change your mind, that is ok too.

I truly feel for you Jayne

Looking back, for many years I have known I am trans.  Unfortunately I also faced a battle where I just wanted to fit with the gender I was assigned at birth.  I repressed those feelings much to the detriment of everything in my life, trying to be a 'normal cis guy' and slowly but surely my dysphoria grew, I pushed away those close to me and became extremely unhappy and dissatisfied

In the last couple of years I have finally learnt to accept what I am and who I am.  Not that it simplifies life much - after all I still need to come out to my family & friends and transition - but I have made a massive step forward in accepting me and have made plans to progress over the coming months

I started HRT recently and after just two or three days felt a massive sense of calm.  Now, I can't believe that my hormone levels changed that quickly so assume that most of this is due to wanting the changes desperately - a placebo of sorts.  I guess if you are fighting the effects of HRT by hanging on to an image of some male self, such changes are not going to happen until you start to see the physical effects of HRT and something finally/possibly clicks

Only you can really decide what you want, who you are and where you want to be.  The fact that you are questioning yourself so much about your gender indicates that you are probably transgender but where you lie in the spectrum is something you need to work out for yourself

Personally, I would be very concerned about taking such a drastic step (with all the physical changes that are likely to come with HRT) whilst still holding on to such a strong desire to be male.  These unresolved issues aren't going to just disappear because your hormone levels change - in fact I can see more issues with your male side trying to come to terms with your new female characteristics.  At the same time, I wouldn't recommend trying to dismiss and repress your true self as this is really somewhere you really don't want to go

Jayne,

Please let me try to understand.

• You live with dysphoria—something inside you that keeps telling you you should be female.
• You don't want to be female. You just want to quiet the inner voice that tells you should, and keep living as an ordinary man.
• You believed that taking female hormones would silence that voice.
• You underwent therapy and electrolysis in order to be able to get hormone therapy.
• After having taken the hormones for some time you realize that the voice has not been silenced.
• The unchanging intensity of the voice makes you feel distressed, as the reason you've underwent the whole difficult and expensive process is to silence it and keep living as a normal man.
• You also say you neither look nor act feminine. As you say you just want to go on being a normal guy, the implication would seem to be you you don't want to either.

This leaves me a bit puzzled, so I hope you may give some additional input if you don't mind

You underwent two years of therapy in order to start hormone therapy so I'm sure you know their physical effects. What degree of physical change would you be willing to accept if the voice is silenced?

Low doses probably—usually—induce the change slowly, but you're taking a higher than normal dose. This would seem to imply that you're willing to accept even significant physical change. In any case, your appearance would be likely to drift away from the male norm sooner or later. What are your feelings regarding that?

At first glance it seems that you hope that not feeling any change on the hormones means you're not transgender. If you've considered other possibilities, what are they?

Given that you just want to be a normal man, why did you choose the name Jayne01 for this forum?

I won't even pretend I can provide answers—it just somehow feels to me that the picture you've given is incomplete. Perhaps it may be easier to figure out if it can be filled out a bit more.

Quote from: zirconia on July 30, 2017, 08:35:08 PM
Jayne,

Please let me try to understand.

I can see how I might have confused you. Let me try to clarify.

Quote

• You live with dysphoria—something inside you that keeps telling you you should be female.

True statement.

Quote

• You don't want to be female. You just want to quiet the inner voice that tells you should, and keep living as an ordinary man.

No, it's the other way around. I want to quiet the inner voice that tells me I should be female.

Quote

• You believed that taking female hormones would silence that voice.

I believed that taking the hormones would somehow satisfy the inner female desire and as a result that inner voice would be silenced.

Quote

• You underwent therapy and electrolysis in order to be able to get hormone therapy.

Not true. I had no desire to ever start hormone therapy. It was a last resort for me. I was hoping the therapy would have fixed me. If I wanted hormones, my first therapist would have been more than happy to give me the letter after the first few months. It was actually my therapist's suggestion to give hormones a try because nothing else was working. I started the electrolysis because neither my wife or I like facial hair and I dislike shaving, so if it helped ease the dysphoria, then that would have been a win win solution.

Quote

• After having taken the hormones for some time you realize that the voice has not been silenced.
• The unchanging intensity of the voice makes you feel distressed, as the reason you've underwent the whole difficult and expensive process is to silence it and keep living as a normal man.

True on both points.

Quote

• You also say you neither look nor act feminine. As you say you just want to go on being a normal guy, the implication would seem to be you you don't want to either.
  

I'm not sure I understand what you mean with this point. I want to be a normal guy, I don't want to be a girl.

Quote
You underwent two years of therapy in order to start hormone therapy so I'm sure you know their physical effects. What degree of physical change would you be willing to accept if the voice is silenced?

Again, not true. I did not undergo therapy so that I can get access to hormones. HRT was never a goal. It is just where I have ended up because I have run out of other options. I was led to believe that the voice could be silenced with minimal physical changes. That has not been my experience, hence my current distress.

Quote
Low doses probably—usually—induce the change slowly, but you're taking a higher than normal dose. This would seem to imply that you're willing to accept even significant physical change. In any case, your appearance would be likely to drift away from the male norm sooner or later. What are your feelings regarding that?

I have become desperate. I just want the noise in my head to go away. If I had access to a gun I would be very afraid that I might pull the trigger just to silence the noise. I don't want to die, I want to live! But this inner voice is making it almost impossible.

Quote
At first glance it seems that you hope that not feeling any change on the hormones means you're not transgender. If you've considered other possibilities, what are they?

I have been in and off this forum for over two years now. During that time I had tried to find an explanation for why I feel the way I feel. I would think that I am some kind of sick and twisted pervert, I am having a major midlife crisis, some other kind of mental illness that I don't know about. No explanation seemed to fit. I tried to accept that I am transgender, but I struggled to make that fit also. During the two years in this forum, a great many people suggested I try hormones. If I am trans, then I will feel better, if I am not trans then I would feel worse. I resisted. I did. It want to go on hormones. Eventually I could take no more and my therapist told me I should try hormones. As you know, I don't feel better or worse on the hormones. I feel no change at all. So now I'm back to square one wondering what the hell I am.

Quote
Given that you just want to be a normal man, why did you choose the name Jayne01 for this forum?

The name is meaningless. I am not very imaginative at coming up with usernames. It just a name that keeps me anonymous. It's a transgender forum so I figured that a male would pick a female name. As I said, I am not a creative person.


I hope this clarifies some things for you.

Quote from: Jayne01 on July 30, 2017, 07:37:01 AM
I don't know what that means. I don't know what it feels to be female or male. I just feel the way I feel. I can't tell you whether it is a male feeling or female feeling. I have nothing to compare it to. There is just this damn voice inside my head that tells me I should have been born a girl. None of it makes any sense to me.

Not to make you doubt yourself (last thing i want to do) but i gotta say.

How can you expect to get rid of dysphoria if you dont even allow your inner woman out. If you dont dress atleast on occasion, or do something to allow that girl, or that voice in your head telling you to be a girl out then how can you expect to be free from dysphoira?

You are taking hormones which, again YMMV. You may have higher T then most of us here which is what is not allowing you to feel 100%.

I dont want to lead you down any path, especially a dark one but I would suggest maybe seeing a new counsellor. As Devlyn has said, it is extremely unusrual for a counsellor to give you HRT when you keep telling us you want to be only a man. Maybe you two thought it would be a good way to see how you do, but if you do have dysphoira, which you have said you do, you may need more then just HRT. Transitoning for many is a package deal. Some may live with just dressing, being any form of gender or just taking HRT. But it seems to me, you just taking HRT isnt doing it so maybe you should look at other methods too. In your case , as it is for most of us this trans life/ having non cis-feelings is a package deal of a bit of everything.
Take care hun <3

The HRT was supposed to make the dysphoria go away. Even the endocrinologist told me that many people would take a very small dose of E and that would calm their minds and they just get on with their lives. I figured it would be like some people take medication for high blood pressure or a heart condition and just get on with their lives. My medication would just happen to be estrogen.  And before you say I should find another endo, I am seeing who I am led to believe is the number 1 endocrinologist for transgender patients in Sydney. He has treated thousands of trans patients over the years and has been doing this for more than 20 years. I would assume he knows what he is talking about.

Quote from: Jayne01 on July 30, 2017, 09:29:31 PM
The HRT was supposed to make the dysphoria go away. Even the endocrinologist told me that many people would take a very small dose of E and that would calm their minds and they just get on with their lives. I figured it would be like some people take medication for high blood pressure or a heart condition and just get on with their lives. My medication would just happen to be estrogen.  And before you say I should find another endo, I am seeing who I am led to believe is the number 1 endocrinologist for transgender patients in Sydney. He has treated thousands of trans patients over the years and has been doing this for more than 20 years. I would assume he knows what he is talking about.

I said you should find another counsellor, not endo. And if thats the case  then maybe you need to work some other issues. Face it, it appears hrt alone isnt doing much.  Maybe explore the gender spectrum. I know that had i just been on HRT and not done any social transition i would be only slightly less miserable then i was before hrt and living male. Its a tough road, but if current hrt alone isnt doing it and you have legit dysphoira the you may need and E increase or start thinking slowly allowing hte girl to come out atleast in some safe space.

It sounds to me like you're trans but don't want to be. You want to stop wanting to be a woman. I wish there was something that works. But there isn't. HRT works by making your body better match your inner self, the one you want to be deep inside. It doesn't stop the that little voice that is telling you what you need. It only makes it less painful as your body changes to match what it's telling you.

In my case (transmasculine) going on testosterone did not have the effect of shutting up the male side of me; it made it louder and more insistent, and eventually I accepted that I'm more guy than girl. I didn't WANT to be trans, but eventually I accepted that I'm never going to be the "girl I always wanted to be." Now that I've let go of the idea of being all woman (though a part of me very much is, so I identify as bi-gender) I'm *enjoying* the process of my body becoming more masculine, even though I plan to continue living outwardly as a woman indefinitely. But the more I see change, the more I like it, and I'm starting to realize I could end up going guy full time, inside and out, and love it. Six months ago there's no way I could ever imagine being okay with such a thing. I still don't think it's the most likely outcome, but I'm no longer denying I could be happy that way.

Sailor, I have seen enough of your post to know that you and Jayne are somewhat similar. You also have the male draw where you want to escape from the woman. The difference is that you are willing to transition and Jayne would prefer not to. I have seen Jayne go through several cycles of accepting the feminine side and then rejecting it. I have seen the same from you.

The goal is to find a place where Jayne is comfortable and at the moment that seems to be in the masculine role but we are still waiting for a final decision from Jayne.

Quote from: Cailan Jade on July 30, 2017, 10:18:34 PM
It sounds to me like you're trans but don't want to be. You want to stop wanting to be a woman. I wish there was something that works. But there isn't. HRT works by making your body better match your inner self, the one you want to be deep inside. It doesn't stop the that little voice that is telling you what you need. It only makes it less painful as your body changes to match what it's telling you.

In my case (transmasculine) going on testosterone did not have the effect of shutting up the male side of me; it made it louder and more insistent, and eventually I accepted that I'm more guy than girl. I didn't WANT to be trans, but eventually I accepted that I'm never going to be the "girl I always wanted to be." Now that I've let go of the idea of being all woman (though a part of me very much is, so I identify as bi-gender) I'm *enjoying* the process of my body becoming more masculine, even though I plan to continue living outwardly as a woman indefinitely. But the more I see change, the more I like it, and I'm starting to realize I could end up going guy full time, inside and out, and love it. Six months ago there's no way I could ever imagine being okay with such a thing. I still don't think it's the most likely outcome, but I'm no longer denying I could be happy that way.

+1 !!

Quote from: Dena on July 30, 2017, 10:23:27 PM
Sailor, I have seen enough of your post to know that you and Jayne are somewhat similar. You also have the male draw where you want to escape from the woman. The difference is that you are willing to transition and Jayne would prefer not to. I have seen Jayne go through several cycles of accepting the feminine side and then rejecting it. I have seen the same from you.

The goal is to find a place where Jayne is comfortable and at the moment that seems to be in the masculine role but we are still waiting for a final decision from Jayne.

Similar yes, but there is no want to escape from being a woman at all. It is all about feeling horrid(shame,guilt, ect) for feeling female, or feeling so dysphoirc there doesnt seem anyway out and everything is male like it or not. Look at all my posts, you will never see me every wanting to be male. Infact, nothing seems more replusive then going back... even when i have thought about doing so. Infact, it then becomes even more replusive and gross

Quote from: SailorMars1994 on July 30, 2017, 10:27:19 PM
Similar yes, but there is no want to escape from being a woman at all. It is all about feeling horrid(shame,guilt, ect) for feeling female, or feeling so dysphoirc there doesnt seem anyway out and everything is male like it or not. Look at all my posts, you will never see me every wanting to be male. Infact, nothing seems more replusive then going back... even when i have thought about doing so. Infact, it then becomes even more replusive and gross

And that is what Jayne feels as well. Under a former account, Jayne attempted to wear a dress and was so disgusted that the dress was burned.

I have been reading this thread and have tried to understand. Sometimes the therapist tells us we must abandon our male say and say goodbye. I kinda did this and went thru some mourning. Now I embrace my two lives as one, my male side is every bit a part of me. This is who I am, Im the 3rd gender.

I also believe that maybe you are not TG. Therapists can be wrong. I fought for 3 years with 2 therapist before I could accept I was tg. My therapist believes that if you think you are tg then most likly you are. if you dont......well maybe you are not.

Good luck on your life journey

Ah, i see your point. I didnt recall that. I am not trying to pass judgement on them Dena. Not even the slightest. Maybe my wording is wrong but it is coming from the heart. I do see similarities between Jayne and myself. I just dont want them to be in the same path. I know they are fairly older then myself and could have a lot more to lose too, and i dont want it to seem like i am trying to push transition as the only way but i would hate to see someone struggle with dysphoria as bad as they seem to and still have a form of fear with the female side of things.... a path i know too well myself

If they want to be male and masculine all the power to them, and if i can help them i would and will. I just hope this isnt  a form of supression that could lead to even more mental distress and hurt then it needs to. That is where my concerns came from.

I am sorry if i came across to pointed, rude, pig headed or arrogant. That was not my intention.

Quote from: warlockmaker on July 30, 2017, 10:37:29 PM
My therapist believes that if you think you are tg then most likly you are. if you dont......well maybe you are not.

How is that possible? Are you saying that I can either be or not be trans just by thinking about it?

Ashley, I did not think you were being rude or arrogant in any way. I understand what you were trying to say. Yes, you and I may be similar in some ways but we are different people and each have our own goals. No need to apologise.