Ordinarily if I have to explain being trans to someone who quickly makes it apparent they are going to try and tell me why I am not trans or that gender dysphoria isn't real, I won't bother to invest much time in the conversation. Typically someone like that has no interest in trying to understand where trans people are coming from and the discussion ends up being anything but rewarding.

In this case the person is someone I am close to. I understand it is not an easy thing to accept but their reaction sort of surprised and hurt me.

The part that surprised me was she said that she seems to think that I am preoccupied with looking good and she finds that disturbing because she thinks that I think being a woman is about nothing but looking good. I explained that I most certainly do not think that and that for me its just a matter of feeling comfortable in my own skin. She keeps telling me that she is attracted to me as male and that if I change she won't see me as a man and won't be attracted anymore. I asked why she is bringing up my appearance as a male when she is insisting a woman's looks are not important or relevant to her identity as a woman. Isn't it a little hypocritical to insist that my "looking good  as a guy" has anything to do with her relating to me as a man? I mean, I get that she is attracted to what she is attracted to, that is just how it is. If she likes the scruffy unshaven look then she isn't going to find me attractive. I get that, no problem. But as far as her equating my "maleness" with my appearance that seems kind of hypocritical.

Anyway, I just can't get through to her that while I can't explain why I am trans I can definitely say I don't think being a woman is solely about appearance. I think that if you ask a group of individuals of either sex what it means to be a man or a woman each would give you a different answer. I can't say what it means to me to be a cisgendered woman, that is for each and every cisgendered woman to decide themselves in my opinion. I can however, say what being trans or a trans woman means to me and the main part of that is it means I get to feel OK with myself.

The part that hurt is I asked "Would you rather I accept this about myself and live happily or ignore it and be miserable for everyone so they feel comfortable?" There was a long pause. In fact, it was far too long and it occurred to me if my being happy was not important enough to her to at least say "Well yes but...." (Whatever her "but" was) then I should just get up and leave. Instead she finally said for the 100th time "I would prefer you didn't equate being a woman with being attractive." (Pardon me, but is there a brick wall nearby I can bang my head against?)

I realize that was a bit of a venting there. Thanks for putting up with it. My first question then is have any of you dealt with people just "not getting it" and coming at you with some far out point of view that you just can't get past with them? In particular, something that almost has nothing to do with you being trans. What did you do? Did you ever get past it with them? Part of me says walk away but I really value the relationship and don't want to loose it. I guess that's why it hurt. As far as that part goes, am I being selfish feeling like maybe my well being could maybe be just a little more important to them?

Thanks

v

This is definitely not a question I should answer. I have cut all contact with people for less than that. My sister called me something that did not sit well with me in the least. And she is dead to me. This was the first thing she said to me in a long time after I tried for moths to reconnect. To me it's not worth my time. If somebody does not like it they can go away. If they are not adult enough
to want to understand, whether they agree or not they can go away. And come back if they ever valued me or being in my life. If my wife could not accept it I would have to leave. And she is it. I love her more than life itself. Granted we are drifting apart a little. But there are a lot things we still enjoy doing together. And we are working on it. And she wants to understand and my happiness is the most important thing to me. She loves who I am. Not what I am. But again if she did to me what was done to you I would be gone. It's just how I am. I think a person is not what's on the outside. It's what's on the inside. It's up to me to make my outside match how the inside feels and if someone does not understand, I get that. But if they don't want to understand. Good bye. Sorry if I am so cynical. But there are plenty of people out there who like me enough to want to understand. And I am finally getting out there and meeting them.


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I said my happiness is the most important thing to me. That is true but it is also the most important thing to her as well. That what we need is people who want us happy.


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 Hi Virginia,

  I'm Laurie, MtF. To answer your question, yes, I have run into someone that not only doesn't get it, but has used my past history between us and religion to concoct a hair brained idea of "What is wrong with me" Obviously, I am a broken individual with unresolved issues probably from my childhood and her god could fix me if I would but let him. That is her idea not mine. That person is my adult daughter. I will not go into details as they are not necessary. Needless to say we disagree, as I am not broken and therefore her concept of god cannot fix me. As for resolution, she has done that for me. After doing a thorough job of character assassination on Facebook, (helped by one of my sisters) She has declared that she is done with me. Problem solved.

  Hey, I see that you are new here. So please let me say, Welcome To Susan's Place! Come on in and take a good look around.  Perhaps I can even get you to hop on over to the Introductions Thread and create a post to tell us a little bit more about yourself so we can get to know you a little better and greet you properly.

  Also, I'll add some links and information below that can help you get more out of our site.

Hugs,
   Laurie


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It always amazes me just how many misconceptions people have about being trans. It amazes me how otherwise intelligent people could have such totally stupid ideas about transpeople. My grandpa actually thinks my dad caused me to be trans. When I was little I was what my mom called "a clingy and needy child." My mom has never been a affectionate person and she wanted none of that from me. So I always wanted to be in my dad's lap and wanted his attention. My grandpa would tell him he shouldn't encourage me because it would make me " soft". He told my dad to give me a good slap and send me on my way instead. Then when I got older he would tell my dad he should punish me for female behavior and whenever he saw my dad hug or kiss me he would tell my dad you didn't ever do that with boys because it would make them grow up to be gay. So when my grandpa found out I was trans he told my dad he was right all along and that I "turned out" to be trans because he was too loving with me when I was growing up.  My dad reminded him that he had been loving with my brother too and he wasn't trans or gay. My grandpa told him he just got lucky with Tyler. I don't know how someone can have such ignorant views in the 21st century . My grandpa seems to think it's the 1950s.

Then there is my uncle. He also thinks it's my dad's fault that I'm trans. He thinks my dad should have had me put on testosterone when I was growing up. My size was a big concern for my uncle. Everyone in my family is tall and  I'm not. My uncle would always point out how much bigger my brother was than me at my age. When I was about 12 he started telling my dad he needed to have me put on testosterone to make me bigger and would also make me more masculine. My dad would tell him he wasn't doing that because there was nothing wrong with me. When I was 15 he told my dad he really needed to rethink the testosterone before it was too late. He told my dad it was wrong and cruel to let me grow up to be a short and small guy if he could prevent it. When he found out I was trans he kept telling my dad he could have prevented it if he had listened to him about the testosterone.  One of my dad's friends also once asked him if maybe testosterone could "fix" me. He wasn't a dick about it, just ignorant so my dad explained it didn't work that way.  People seem to think being MtF is caused by lack of testosterone.  Again, are we in the 21st century or the 50s.

Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. And also like buttholes some of them are full of crap.

Quote from: Julia1996 on August 29, 2017, 05:52:24 AM

Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. And also like buttholes some of them are full of crap.

Ya and the ignorant are like Slinkies, not really good for anything but fun to watch as you push them down the stairs.


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Quote from: Julia1996 on August 29, 2017, 05:52:24 AM
It always amazes me just how many misconceptions people have about being trans. It amazes me how otherwise intelligent people could have such totally stupid ideas about transpeople. My grandpa actually thinks my dad caused me to be trans. When I was little I was what my mom called "a clingy and needy child." My mom has never been a affectionate person and she wanted none of that from me. So I always wanted to be in my dad's lap and wanted his attention. My grandpa would tell him he shouldn't encourage me because it would make me " soft". He told my dad to give me a good slap and send me on my way instead. Then when I got older he would tell my dad he should punish me for female behavior and whenever he saw my dad hug or kiss me he would tell my dad you didn't ever do that with boys because it would make them grow up to be gay. So when my grandpa found out I was trans he told my dad he was right all along and that I "turned out" to be trans because he was too loving with me when I was growing up.  My dad reminded him that he had been loving with my brother too and he wasn't trans or gay. My grandpa told him he just got lucky with Tyler. I don't know how someone can have such ignorant views in the 21st century . My grandpa seems to think it's the 1950s.

Then there is my uncle. He also thinks it's my dad's fault that I'm trans. He thinks my dad should have had me put on testosterone when I was growing up. My size was a big concern for my uncle. Everyone in my family is tall and  I'm not. My uncle would always point out how much bigger my brother was than me at my age. When I was about 12 he started telling my dad he needed to have me put on testosterone to make me bigger and would also make me more masculine. My dad would tell him he wasn't doing that because there was nothing wrong with me. When I was 15 he told my dad he really needed to rethink the testosterone before it was too late. He told my dad it was wrong and cruel to let me grow up to be a short and small guy if he could prevent it. When he found out I was trans he kept telling my dad he could have prevented it if he had listened to him about the testosterone.  One of my dad's friends also once asked him if maybe testosterone could "fix" me. He wasn't a dick about it, just ignorant so my dad explained it didn't work that way.  People seem to think being MtF is caused by lack of testosterone.  Again, are we in the 21st century or the 50s.

Opinions are like buttholes, everyone has one. And also like buttholes some of them are full of crap.

50's
We all find our sweet spot that is usually in your late teens to mid 20's.  That "music" you listen to.  Those clothes you wear. And OMG why those friends??
Most people do not add much to their lives after that.  Get set in their ways.  Except some of us as we suddenly realize some important thing that should have been aware of during those years.
Then there are others that quickly become indoctrinated by others and parrot their views.
For the most part Julia, I am generally very impressed with the way you describe your father.  All-in-all if more parents were as nurturing and caring of their kids the world would be a lot better.  Your grandpa is what he is.  Wont change much and gotta live with it, deflect from it or keep him out of you life.  I his soul he loves you too.

Norma, I don't mean to hijack you thread.  Your questions and concerns are very valid.  And what I said to Julia has a lot to apply to your dilemma.  Some will...some wont.  Move on.  Worry about people and things you can affect positively.

Quote from: Virginia 71 on August 28, 2017, 10:40:25 PM
... am I being selfish feeling like maybe my well being could maybe be just a little more important to them? ...

No... you're not being selfish... your expectations and related observations seem smart, appropriate. You're just sort of alone in those moments so there is nobody else to offer immediate support.

She's just in love with you as a masculine person and she's likely uncertain of what all this means. Remember that SOs transition too. It can sometimes be rougher for an SO.

She may be attracted to masculinity to a degree that is unchangeable but I don't think her current response is necessarily a sign of that. You can't know without time...

Also there's no rule that says you have to do anything physical as part of being trans. Generally that's an ideal that seems to wither to some degree (for many but not all) but I feel it's a critical ideal to keep in mind... so many people get bent out of shape, SOs and transitioners alike, before a journey even gets off the ground... seems like chill pills and patience would help ease things... this is not to say there can be hurt feelings at some point but why jump into that pond so quickly is all I'm saying.

Quote from: Virginia 71 on August 28, 2017, 10:40:25 PM
...  someone who ... makes it apparent they are going to try and tell me why I am not trans or that gender dysphoria isn't real, I won't bother to invest much time in the conversation.
...
... she seems to think that I am preoccupied with looking good and she finds that disturbing because she thinks that I think being a woman is about nothing but looking good.
...
she finally said for the 100th time "I would prefer you didn't equate being a woman with being attractive." (Pardon me, but is there a brick wall nearby I can bang my head against?)

There's a lot being discussed in all this. Regarding attractiveness, generally speaking everyone wants to feel attractive. This is sort of built into genes I believe.

I think attractiveness by the tribe as a whole is deemed positive when mates consider and select one another. So anyone who says it doesn't matter as part of fitting in and acceptance is usually (but not always) fooling themselves.

In this case, she either sees trans-women as having such a base viewpoint or she's extremely savvy at navigating into your brain. (Regardless of the reason, I don't say this to blame anyone ... she needs space as an SO to go through those motions regardless of the source within her.)

Being a little more specific... I think one would be hard pressed to find a female gendered ciswoman who is endowed with what she feels are aesthetically pleasing breasts who would also be interested in a mastectomy even in a case where it could magically happen without surgery or risk. And the opposite, for a woman who seeks breast reconstruction, it seems anything but a base endeavor, yet often seems connected with rekindling a sense of being a whole woman... and it seems a sense of one's attractiveness to others is in the there somewhere. Clearly many (but maybe not all) women view their aesthetic beauty as an important part of their identity. 

(I express the prior paragraph with thoughts of full respect to anyone going through issues requiring reconstruction... if you read this and I seem insensitive with this analogy, forgive me... I'm trying to make a positive point here and this particular analogy seems to make things clear in my own thinking so I wanted to share it.)

Ciswomen have also had a long tiring journey with the patriarchy when it comes to equality and other issues. While evolution has generally made ciswomen quite attractive, ciswomen themselves have cultivated a unique intelligence, wisdom, insight which is often missed in male culture that focuses on the aesthetic beauty of women, often with extreme focus on the sensual or sexual aspect of female beauty or appearance. Male culture does this sometimes to a degree that often offends many ciswomen who are light-years beyond those very narrow areas of focus.

Yes, attractiveness is not the only thing. Yes, male culture can often emphasize female attractiveness with a base narrowness. Yes, women are so much more than how male culture tends to reduce things. But, Yes, women (and men) generally care about how they look... this is natural. And, Yes, some if not most women like to feel they are sensual and sexually attractive to at least some degree to their mate(s) of choice. (Men have a need for this too but it manifests differently.)

(An aside... In some cases, male culture can drive women to feel the need to express in an unhealthy manner... but if I were to imagine an all-female-defined female way of living/being/expressing—not hindered by the influence of T—it itself would have some notion of stereotypical attractiveness. Even if it were to involve more caring/compassion and the like, I doubt it would be without aspects of "fun" or "acceptable" base sensual/sexual expression that allows humans to be humans when they interact, flirt, all that. This is not to say the male culture stereotypes are merely the same so "just accept it"... hardly... I'm just saying regardless of what we fix or improve, there will always be attractiveness, sexuality, sensuality. It's a natural healthy part of being a human being in our lovely universe.)

For our world as it is today, in some cases, a woman may wear or do things which may overlap the male culture stereotypes... but even those are often different things... a woman choosing to express is a woman and much more... she is a human being with an entire universe within and without. The male culture stereotypes tend to have a relatively base expression that is missing a lot of stuff to say the least. Testosterone seems to feed this... and it's not always bad by any stretch but it should be understood, and seems often it is not understood, especially by men (again, seems like a T thing... they're driven and behave and then can't understand what all the hoopla is about... seems like a T thing). Woman have been overshadowed in so many ways over the centuries, yet women have done so much for our civilization... if not kept us alive. Male culture stereotypes seem to miss this... not always but often do seem to miss it.

Quote from: Virginia 71 on August 28, 2017, 10:40:25 PM
...  My first question then is have any of you dealt with people just "not getting it" and coming at you with some far out point of view that you just can't get past with them? In particular, something that almost has nothing to do with you being trans. What did you do? Did you ever get past it with them? ...

I've mostly found acceptance. Where I've seen the "I don't get it" thing is usually in implicit rude behavior... you can just feel the rejection. I've found the best remedy is to build the habit of learning to continue forward with discourse as though it's not evident, remain polite, conduct business, move forward. That actually works... seems a great habit to develop.

With some close folks, I've had misgendering and you can sometimes feel (even without it being said) that "they want to know... are you sure?" and all that. I've mostly buffered that stuff with a lot of patience. There can come a time where you separate ... i.e., excessive misgendering after years... but I haven't had that happen.

I don't know... can't answer anything for you... but it seems like your SO likes you and I feel you might have patience and just give things time. I really don't sense a huge dilemma yet... she's just scared and, as an implicit compliment of you, she seems to really like you. If it's base, you'll learn that... but her tact with you isn't a sign she likes you only for your masculinity is all I'm saying. It seems too early to tell that... you don't know the changes you'll go forth with, and you don't yet know her reactions over time. Right now it seems like you're arguing ideals in the abstract, she from your viewpoint of what you might be doing physically, and she from the apparent standpoint of holding onto her beau. This is just an initial thing... seems like time is needed to see how things unfold with you both.

Thanks all for the responses. I have not decided what to do yet but your comments were all very helpful.

When cisgender society stops mocking transwomen for looking like men, is when they get to tell you to stop associating womanhood with appearance.

Quote from: JMJW on August 31, 2017, 10:44:17 AM
When cisgender society stops mocking transwomen for looking like men, is when they get to tell you to stop associating womanhood with appearance.

Great point!

Quote"I would prefer you didn't equate being a woman with being attractive."

Speaking for myself....

I feel like a woman inside. I feel pretty inside. On the outside, I don't find myself pretty - I was AMAB. As a result, I have to work hard at looking pretty in order to get my outside more congruent with how I see myself on the inside.

So, I could see how someone might think I am acting way too hyper-feminine. It's not that I'm trying to be a caricature of what it means to look like a woman; i just have to use every tool at my disposal to not feel so damn masculine.

Perhaps this will change over time and I will not feel the need to look the part quite so much, but at this (early) stage of my journey, I want to try to look like the person I feel like.