When I was onthe gay cruise a week ago, I realized for real how butches look like. Have never seen so many gay people at the same place.

But something bothers me. It shouldn't but it does. The butches dress like men. Most of them are easily spotted as women. But not all. That made me see myself in new eyes. What if people see a butch instead of me.

I dress like a man. Every day. Not sure how people cathegorize me. Somehow I became very self consious. I'm not a butch. I'm a guy.

I pass 50% of the time but my voice and huge chest gives me away. Thank you winter!!

I don't want people to put me in the girl-gay-box.

Quote from: MeTonie on September 12, 2017, 09:42:03 PM
When I was onthe gay cruise a week ago, I realized for real how butches look like. Have never seen so many gay people at the same place.

But something bothers me. It shouldn't but it does. The butches dress like men. Most of them are easily spotted as women. But not all. That made me see myself in new eyes. What if people see a butch instead of me.

I dress like a man. Every day. Not sure how people cathegorize me. Somehow I became very self consious. I'm not a butch. I'm a guy.

I pass 50% of the time but my voice and huge chest gives me away. Thank you winter!!

I don't want people to put me in the girl-gay-box.

Sometimes I wonder if some lesbians are really trans.


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Unfortunately, I'd imagine many of us get pegged as butch lesbians pre-T/top. I'm certain I did.

It's just one of those (lame) things, man.

Then it is a perfect time to come out when people put me in the wrong box. I'll try to do it that way instead.

It is cool though to be hit on by both girls and gay guys. But I'm unsure why they hit on me, if they see me or a butch. Never mind. I'll just enjoy the moment.

Unfortunately some people, even LGBT people themselves, associate a certain style with being gay or lesbian. There's nothing wrong with a girl dressing in male clothes or vice versa but it certainly doesn't help with how uninformed straight or cis people perceive us transgendered people. I think that's why so many think being transgender means we're just confused or that is just a lifestyle that we can choose the same way we can choose our style of clothing or hair. It's probably also why you hear stupid questions like "so which one of you is the man in the relationship?" Sometimes the people who get mad at those kind of comments are the ones perpetuating the stereotype themselves. It sucks but what can you do. I wouldn't be surprised either if most butch lesbians were actually trans or at least fell somewhere on that side of the spectrum.

It could actually be like that. I came out as gay when I was 12. Told the most beautiful girl (my friend) in school that she was the most beautiful girl in school. Unfortunately that was the end of our friendship. She got scared and backed off.

After that I was the gay. Lived with a controlling girl for 3 years. She controlled every step I took. We fought some. Mom said it was like we were married and laughed.

She was controlling, jelaus and always had to have the last word. I ran away from there. Never broke up. I just fled.

Quote from: Gertrude on September 12, 2017, 11:06:34 PM
Sometimes I wonder if some lesbians are really trans.


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I ask myself the same. Since women who dress like men are completely accepted, I wonder if sometimes it's just easier for some of them who might be trans to stay there.

Well... if you're in a place where people blur the lines of gender expression there's always that increased possibility they will.

But what if they do? In that case just set the record straight.

Only thing I have to add is I think we should take care to leave space for legit lesbians that are masculine and have a butch appearance. A butch woman is an actual thing. Most of them have no desire to be a man. When we as trans men have this conversation it becomes dismissive to cis folks that blur the gender line. I happen to be a binary trans man but I respect those that turn traditional notions of gender expression on its head. Not every female that dresses like a man is secretly trans just as not every effeminate male is secretly trans. The existence of butch women may make things confusing for some of us in terms of how we are peceived but its not their problem.

Quote from: CMD042414 on September 13, 2017, 12:08:44 PM
. . . we should take care to leave space for legit lesbians that are masculine and have a butch appearance. A butch woman is an actual thing. Most of them have no desire to be a man. When we as trans men have this conversation it becomes dismissive to cis folks that blur the gender line. . . .  Not every female that dresses like a man is secretly trans just as not every effeminate male is secretly trans. The existence of butch women may make things confusing for some of us in terms of how we are peceived but its not their problem.

Thank you, CMD042414, for speaking an important truth!

This site is for trans folks, so it's not surprising that conversation here will be sort of "trans-centric."  But it's important for us to recognize the authenticity of gender expression that may superficially resemble ours, even though expressed by those who don't share our inward psychology.

I've been doing a lot of reading recently about the history and evolution of theories of gender identity and gender presentation.  It's a real eye-opener.

It was not long ago that society (and importantly, the medical profession!) scarcely recognized that transgender really existed.  It was common thirty years ago for people generally (and importantly, doctors and psychologists!) to wrongly assume that trans men were just butch lesbians who, possibly because of homophobia, were attempting to rationalize away their lesbianism by convincing themselves that they were really men.  This failure to recognize the authenticity of trans identity caused all kinds of chaos and hurt and confusion.

It's a sign of how far we have come as a trans community that the world is finally beginning to untangle the confusion about trans identity and recognize trans people for who we really are.  (Still a long way to go, of course!)

CMD hits the nail on the head: Butch lesbians (and butch women generally) are definitely a thing.  They have been a thing for generations, and they will be thing into the future.  They're not going anywhere!

MeTonie's basic point is well taken.  There's often a lot of superficial resemblance in the gender presentation of trans men and butch women.  It's easy to be confused.  Don't assume that a woman with butch presentation is an incipient trans man - most of them aren't.  If you assume that they are and they're not, then we have misgendered them.  And I don't need to tell anyone on this site how painful and annoying it is to be misgendered.

The right thing for us to do is not to make assumptions.  If you're having a hard time figuring out someone's gender identity because of mixed cues in presentation, just step back for a second and give that person the space to tell us who they are - on the inside.

ItsApril. Well spoken.

Hey April, everything you said makes complete sense for me. Well said.

I probably look, act and sound fairly butch to some people and as a non binary person I consider that a compliment

You definitely look manly to me. Butch or tomboy dressing by lesbians is just a preference and style that people like. I can see how you might feel that it is distracting to your own presentation, but i would try to not focus on that. I definitely get it though. As a trans woman, i sometimes like to dress sort of tomboy and i wonder what people see me as too.

To other posts: There is a huge difference between lesbians/Gay men and trans people in general. As we know, just because someone wants to present themselves in a more fluid, or masculine (etc) manner, does not mean that they do not value their womanhood and femininity highly. They are not "trying to be guys" anymore than the old stereotype of a gay male being more feminine, is trying to be a girl. Then of course we have the non-binary, fluid people etc. We should be careful about stereotyping our LGTB brothers and sisters. (there is no malice here i understand that)

We are so much more than the clothes we wear as another poster said.

i don't pass, and i don't wear women's clothes or makeup, so everyone i meet assumes i am just a lesbian.  that is something i've noticed since moving closer to a city where there's a wider variety of gender presentation and things like women who dress in a more masculine fashion are not out of the norm.  it's good that people have freedom to wear what they like, but it does mean that clothing and hairstyle and whatnot aren't going to do much in terms of how people view your gender, which can be very hard on people who want to be seen as their gender but don't have the means to change their bodies.  at least the assumption that i'm gay keeps guys from hitting on me...?  :'^)

It's an interesting one. I know that gender is a spectrum and gender expression is another spectrum. And folks should be able to do as they like. And then who we are attracted *to* is a whole other thing.

For me, I'm (still!) pre-T and I identify as male. I have changed my dress and appearance as much as I can to be male for the last year and a half while I wait to start T. It's a weird head space to be in, because physically I still look feminine enough, and and androgynous when I'm lucky. If I talk though, it's over - female-sounding voice.

I live in a town that does seem to have a lot of lesbians, which is cool, except quite a few folks see me as lesbian (which I never have been). I'm very much attracted to other guys and have been in dating purgatory in the meantime, which sucks. I don't like being mistaken by a lesbian, and I'm not fully out either. So this time and space is getting very old.

I suppose the only reason I care why people think I am a certain way is because I'm single and one day would like to date guys again. It's been complicated though. Part of my frustration may be that my family has always thought I was a lesbian and had that hanging over me for the last 25 years. And it's never been true. Sigh.

Quote from: Hughie on September 18, 2017, 06:15:00 PM
It's an interesting one. I know that gender is a spectrum and gender expression is another spectrum. And folks should be able to do as they like. And then who we are attracted *to* is a whole other thing.

For me, I'm (still!) pre-T and I identify as male. I have changed my dress and appearance as much as I can to be male for the last year and a half while I wait to start T. It's a weird head space to be in, because physically I still look feminine enough, and and androgynous when I'm lucky. If I talk though, it's over - female-sounding voice.

I live in a town that does seem to have a lot of lesbians, which is cool, except quite a few folks see me as lesbian (which I never have been). I'm very much attracted to other guys and have been in dating purgatory in the meantime, which sucks. I don't like being mistaken by a lesbian, and I'm not fully out either. So this time and space is getting very old.

I suppose the only reason I care why people think I am a certain way is because I'm single and one day would like to date guys again. It's been complicated though. Part of my frustration may be that my family has always thought I was a lesbian and had that hanging over me for the last 25 years. And it's never been true. Sigh.

This sounds like my life...

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Quote from: arice on September 18, 2017, 07:30:33 PM
This sounds like my life...

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Solidarity.

I am what people would call me a binary trans guy and I will say this is why i have had an issue with people who dress like the other gender with no intention to change their sex. In now way am I trying to be rude but I have always disliked the lesbians that dress like men, or should I say the ones that act like men and talk like men and even have their hair cut low like men, I think it causes confusion and I feel like this is why transmen are not taken seriously. I have noticed that trans women get taken way more seriously though it may be more acceptable for a woman to dress like a man, I don't see alot of guys dressing like women. I am all for someone doing whatever makes them happy but I guess I would say I am more traditional as far as gender roles goes.

Quote from: Brandon on September 19, 2017, 05:55:11 PM
I am what people would call me a binary trans guy and I will say this is why i have had an issue with people who dress like the other gender with no intention to change their sex. In now way am I trying to be rude but I have always disliked the lesbians that dress like men, or should I say the ones that act like men and talk like men and even have their hair cut low like men, I think it causes confusion and I feel like this is why transmen are not taken seriously. I have noticed that trans women get taken way more seriously though it may be more acceptable for a woman to dress like a man, I don't see alot of guys dressing like women. I am all for someone doing whatever makes them happy but I guess I would say I am more traditional as far as gender roles goes.

You don't have to like the lesbians who present as male. Their identity and expression have nothing to do with you.  That it makes your life difficult is your problem not theirs.
Every person should be free to express themselves through the clothing and hairstyles that make them feel most comfortable and confident. This needs to be true for both men and women though it currently is not. Respecting people's gender expression is just as important as respecting their gender identity.
The social climate that gives you the freedom to medically transition is the same one that lets women wear pants and have short hair. 

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