I have been taking MTF (plant estrogen-delivering) herbs (on and off) for 8 years, and on HRT (estradiol) along with herbal Tblockers for 9 months.  3 months ago I reached a reasonable B cup (though one side much smaller than the other).  I then spent last three months dieting cos I was overweight at 97kg and 5 foot 11 3/4 inches.  I am now 77kg (I have managed to lose 20kg in 3 months!) and love my slim figure now, but between 79kg and 77kg my boobs got noticeably smaller       I know this is a common problem for cis girls, but am now thinking about doing other things to increase the breast size while keeping my trim figure!

My first thought is herbal breast creams, but what puzzles me is that they deliver plant estrogens ... but, as I understand it, the body cannot use plant estrogens directly ... surely the liver has to rebuild them into human estrogen ... so ... what is the point in using a cream?  I mean what is the point in topical application if it has to go to the liver to be converted into a form that the breasts can use?

So my ultimate question is ... Do you guys find that herbal creams really help if you are also taking estradiol?  And what about herbs taken orally if you are also taking estradiol?  Any difference between topical and oral herbs here?

If you are on legitimate HRT then I'm pretty sure the herbals won't do anything except make your wallet thinner.

If your E dose is sufficient then it is already binding to all the available estrogen receptors.  The herbals may even get there first and block the action of the bioidentical E and give you worse results.

The amount of estrogen in herbal products is not enough to give a good response. You need prescription strength estrogen to attain maximum results.   Many of us like the bio-identical estradiol because it is safe and effective. It can be taken by injection, sublingual, patches or topical gel. Each delivery method has it's advantages and disadvantages. Take your pick and see your doctor.

I took them about a decade ago with limited success.  I think, maybe other causes, but I was about a "A" cup when I started hrt two months ago and I'm wondering if that is a possible reason for the earlier onset of my breast development.  They are budding right now.
Hugs, Jessica 🙋🏼

Quote from: Deborah on September 18, 2017, 05:06:47 PM
If you are on legitimate HRT then I'm pretty sure the herbals won't do anything except make your wallet thinner.

If your E dose is sufficient then it is already binding to all the available estrogen receptors.  The herbals may even get there first and block the action of the bioidentical E and give you worse results.

Ah.  Interesting.  I had read somewhere that taking herbs delivering plant estrogens might reduce the effect of the estradiol, but I couldn't see the logic of it.  Thank you; your explanation makes total sense. 

Quote from: Dani on September 18, 2017, 10:54:52 PM
The amount of estrogen in herbal products is not enough to give a good response. You need prescription strength estrogen to attain maximum results.   Many of us like the bio-identical estradiol because it is safe and effective. It can be taken by injection, sublingual, patches or topical gel. Each delivery method has it's advantages and disadvantages. Take your pick and see your doctor.

Thank you Dani.  I was self-medicating, but have just had my first GP appointment (West London, UK); waiting for my first Gender Identity Clinic appointment - which, I am told can take a long time. 

Herbals give great results for some people. I  got to a 36B using them. Most people will tell you they don't work, but won't tell you that they never used them. Go to breast enlargement forums for the information.

Nevertheless, they will compete with prescription HRT and taking them together won't accomplish anything.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: DaniellaG on September 19, 2017, 04:54:51 AM
Thank you Dani.  I was self-medicating, but have just had my first GP appointment (West London, UK); waiting for my first Gender Identity Clinic appointment - which, I am told can take a long time. 

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Quote from: Dani on September 18, 2017, 10:54:52 PM
The amount of estrogen in herbal products is not enough to give a good response. You need prescription strength estrogen to attain maximum results.   Many of us like the bio-identical estradiol because it is safe and effective. It can be taken by injection, sublingual, patches or topical gel. Each delivery method has it's advantages and disadvantages. Take your pick and see your doctor.

I have to disagree with this statement.
I started with herbal estrogen about 16 months before I began pharma HRT. Within a year I went from flat chested to a B cup. When I switched over to pharma HRT, my breasts actually shrunk a bit (much to my dismay) and have only grown back to their B cup state after being on pharma HRT for over a year.

I find it very short sighted that the particular herbal estrogen I used, is banned from being discussed on this forum.

Phytoestrogen (herbal) is a bio-identical estrogen. It is shunned by medical professionals, because there haven't been enough scientific studies about it. There haven't been enough studies about it, because big pharma likes laboratory synthesis as opposed to finding natural solutions. Why? Because they can patent chemical synthesis and make gobs of money off of it as opposed to something you could actually grow yourself. It is in their economic interest to keep herbal alternatives away from us.

/END RANT

In turn, I'll disagree with part of your rant. Working behind the scenes, I  know  the reasons why we aren't allowed to discuss certain substances (I  used one of them, too). 

Know that yours truly makes a pain in the ass out of herself on a regular basis trying to get that changed. I don't push too hard because if I get fired, no one will be pushing for these discussions. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: DaniellaG on September 18, 2017, 03:26:06 PM
...what is the point in using a cream?  I mean what is the point in topical application if it has to go to the liver to be converted into a form that the breasts can use?

So my ultimate question is ... Do you guys find that herbal creams really help if you are also taking estradiol?  And what about herbs taken orally if you are also taking estradiol?  Any difference between topical and oral herbs here?

I used creams early on noticed no difference... I think they are more placebo than anything else. Decades ago I took my own herbal oral regime based on online info and noticed some growth... I was not on HRT at the time and stopped because I read about liver damage and was taking a lot each day. I think there are some over-the-counter herbal solutions that offer a better herbal path than what I did on my own years ago but I'd avoid all such herbals while on HRT unless talking with the doctor helping with your HRT. Even without being on HRT, I'd generally avoid herbals due to potential liver issues unless you are certain it is safe, perhaps with advice from a doctor or qualified nutritionist.

Quote from: LexiDreamer on September 20, 2017, 09:59:46 AM
Phytoestrogen (herbal) is a bio-identical estrogen. It is shunned by medical professionals, because there haven't been enough scientific studies about it. There haven't been enough studies about it, because big pharma likes laboratory synthesis as opposed to finding natural solutions. Why? Because they can patent chemical synthesis and make gobs of money off of it as opposed to something you could actually grow yourself. It is in their economic interest to keep herbal alternatives away from us.

/END RANT

Phytoestrogens are not bioidentical to human estrogens. They act only very weakly on the E receptor and in some instances is an antagonist. These plant estrogens are not a suitable replacement for pharmaceutical-grade HRT in trans women.

The rest reads so much like the standard anti-pharma rant, that I won't bother responding.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 20, 2017, 10:36:17 PM
In turn, I'll disagree with part of your rant. Working behind the scenes, I  know  the reasons why we aren't allowed to discuss certain substances (I  used one of them, too). 

Know that yours truly makes a pain in the ass out of herself on a regular basis trying to get that changed. I don't push too hard because if I get fired, no one will be pushing for these discussions. 

Hugs, Devlyn

I appreciate you trying to keep phytoestrogens in the conversations here. As you are obviously a believer and proof, much like myself.   
I'm sorry but I didn't catch what exactly you disagree with me on?

I guess the other question is... why keep the reason to ban discussion of (*topic omitted*) "behind the scenes"?
AKA... Why can't the admins actually say "why" they won't allow it to be discussed?

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 21, 2017, 06:42:28 PM
Phytoestrogens are not bioidentical to human estrogens. They act only very weakly on the E receptor and in some instances is an antagonist. These plant estrogens are not a suitable replacement for pharmaceutical-grade HRT in trans women.

The rest reads so much like the standard anti-pharma rant, that I won't bother responding.

Actually if you do the research, the term "bioidentical hormones" was actually coined to describe plant based hormones that act on the human endocrine system... such as phytoestrogens.
Yes, I will agree, most of the phytoestrogens allowed to be discussed on this site are weaker versions of their human counterparts. There are quite a few of them out there.

But if you're looking to make the statement that ALL phytoestrogens are weaker, it's just plain false.
In fact, I bet most of the women on here are taking a form of plant based estrogen, and they're "pharmaceutical grade". Estrace (and many others) is actually derived from yams and soy and is one of the most prescribed bioidentical estrogens for HRT. You can look it up.

A certain herbal estrogen (basically unrefined estrogenic plant matter) alone, gave me better feminization results than taking prescription Estradiol and Spironolactone for over a year.
And I am not alone in this experience.
If we were aloud to discuss this herb, I bet there would be many women on this site that would share similar results.

I'm glad you recognized my "/END RANT" tag!
But don't worry, I was only talking about the for profit pharmaceutical companies that keep the costs of health care continually rising (at least in my country)...
but not the altruistic pharmaceutical companies you were probably thinking of.

I took herbals for a time as on ramp for HRT, (pills not creams) i did not see any real feminization other than perhaps a bit of nipple soreness. (i already had small breast due to gynecomastia). Also the amount of material i needed to take was worrisome. When HRT started with a doctor it was an immediate feminization effect and i felt safer. Still, there are whole forums dedicated to herbal intervention and people that recount acceptable results.

My biggest issue with herbs, vitamins, homeopathy etc is that it is not well regulated or in some cases regulated at all. How do you know how much of the good stuff is really in there? How do you know bad stuff isn't? What is to stop a company that get's some 3rd party lab to certify their product, from reducing the formula when things are financially bad etc. At least Pharma is very tightly regulated. You also have the doctors care issue.

Quote from: RobynD on September 22, 2017, 01:28:36 PM
I took herbals for a time as on ramp for HRT, (pills not creams) i did not see any real feminization other than perhaps a bit of nipple soreness. (i already had small breast due to gynecomastia). Also the amount of material i needed to take was worrisome. When HRT started with a doctor it was an immediate feminization effect and i felt safer. Still, there are whole forums dedicated to herbal intervention and people that recount acceptable results.

My biggest issue with herbs, vitamins, homeopathy etc is that it is not well regulated or in some cases regulated at all. How do you know how much of the good stuff is really in there? How do you know bad stuff isn't? What is to stop a company that get's some 3rd party lab to certify their product, from reducing the formula when things are financially bad etc. At least Pharma is very tightly regulated. You also have the doctors care issue.

See, thats why I fight. The substance I used, which we're not allowed to discuss, is indeed regulated in its country of manufacture. And if anyone says "We don't know about these countries medical regulations" then you better stop flocking there for GCS.   

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 22, 2017, 03:05:51 PM
See, thats why I fight. The substance I used, which we're not allowed to discuss, is indeed regulated in its country of manufacture. And if anyone says "We don't know about these countries medical regulations" then you better stop flocking there for GCS.   

Hugs, Devlyn

You took the thoughts right out of my head!
I was just thinking about that connection an hour ago!

I have had a little sucess with herbals but the doctor put this girls transition into high gear.Nothing is better than the doc and I tried it all.Make sure you talk to the doc about progesterone.

Hi folks,

  We do welcome discussion of herbals as long as it complies with site policy and the Terms of Service

In an effort to answer your question, Lexi, and for the benefit of all here, as to why certain herbals are not permitted to be discussed on the site I offer the following.

"You may not discuss (specified herbal products) on this site at all due to their being linked with serious health complications."

I will also offer that comments in dispute of or state that protesting of the policy is also not recommended not allowed in the public area. If you have issues with policy contact Cindy or Susan directly.

  Please try to keep the above in mind when posting  on this subject.  I personally have not tried any herbals but I did look into them before I discovered I could get HRT medications. So I do not have any experience with this subject.

Hugs,
   Laurie

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 22, 2017, 03:05:51 PM
See, thats why I fight. The substance I used, which we're not allowed to discuss, is indeed regulated in its country of manufacture. And if anyone says "We don't know about these countries medical regulations" then you better stop flocking there for GCS.   

Hugs, Devlyn

The medical regulation is questionable as it is, Dev, it doesn't stop people..