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Being Socialized Female 101

Started by kylen kantari, September 12, 2017, 03:31:27 PM

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Janes Groove

That's interesting Viktor, I had never considered that, but I still believe there is a social component there.  For example if I would have carried my books like a girl at my all boys Catholic prep school back in the 70s? 
I would have gotten the stuffing beat out of me.

Also, I find it interesting how women carry grocery baskets at the market.  Holding their arm at a right angle to their body with the forearm supporting the weight of the basket. Like carrying a purse.  While men carry the basket down low with the weight supported by a hand grip.  It wasn't until I transitioned that I started carrying it like a woman and I must say it's not natural for me, but it's another way to blend and be read as female.

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Artesia

I carried things cradled in my arms for a long time, it just felt natural to me.  I stopped because of people making fun of me.  That was back in the late 80's, it also corresponded with the time frame of people making fun of the way I walked, which was by saying "you walk like a girl" I wish then that I knew what I know now, it probably would have saved me from some odd bits in my life.  Then again, I could have suffered more, who knows.
All the worlds a joke, and the people, merely punchlines

September 13, 2016 HRT start date
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Sarah_P

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 01:37:24 PM
I always found it interesting the difference between the way men carry books and women carry books.

Men carry books like they are carrying a football.

Women carry books like they are carrying a baby.

I think this also points to a significant way men and woman approach learning itself.

I've noticed that myself! I used to carry them at the hip if it was just 1 or 2, but I've seen a lot of men carrying them, as you say, like a football, above the hip with their elbow sticking out. I assume by doing that their occupying more space & thus enhancing their physical presence.
--Sarah P

There's a world out there, just waiting
If you only let go what's inside
Live every moment, give it your all, enjoy the ride
- Stan Bush, The Journey



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KarynMcD

I've always switched back and forth on how I carry things based on how well it fit in one hand.

I've heard that girls carrying things in front of them was something they learned when they hit puberty to protect their growing breasts from getting hit. Many of us know that pain.

Carrying purses and the like: the first time I saw my daughter carry something on her arm like that I was really surprised. It wasn't something we taught her, she just did it. She was like two or three at the time.
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MaryT

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 01:37:24 PM
I always found it interesting the difference between the way men carry books and women carry books.

Men carry books like they are carrying a football.

Women carry books like they are carrying a baby.

I think this also points to a significant way men and woman approach learning itself.

I've never carried books under my arm myself, although I never thought of it as a woman thing.  I'm just afraid of dropping them.  I'm not well educated, but I love books.  I'm horrified when they drop and get dented, torn or dirtied.  I nearly fainted when my father used one of his books to whack a creepy crawly, and it wasn't because I love insects. 

It could be because I'm not an intellectual, as I suppose that intellectuals are only interested in the wisdom within the books, not the books themselves.  Being protective of books might be a woman thing, though, as I remember my grandmother showing me at an early age how to care for books, including how to turn the pages.
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RobynD

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 09:47:14 PM

Also, I find it interesting how women carry grocery baskets at the market.  Holding their arm at a right angle to their body with the forearm supporting the weight of the basket. Like carrying a purse.  While men carry the basket down low with the weight supported by a hand grip.  It wasn't until I transitioned that I started carrying it like a woman and I must say it's not natural for me, but it's another way to blend and be read as female.

Oh great, now i am going to be self-conscious about carrying the grocery basket :) Seriously though, these little things are amazing. I know i have some of both sorts of mannerisms, more of the female no doubt.


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Roll

Those baskets are awkward to begin with, at least the style with the two handles that pinch your fingers and don't quite balance right if you have anything at all in the basket (the weight of milk being the big thing). Most women I see with the baskets (which is kind of rare, I'm in a "use a buggy for every other week stock up" sort of area) carry them all sorts of different ways depending on the weight and balance of the basket. Those with light objects (cereal, random small things) definitely do the out-in-front method, but anyone with a heavier load tends to carry it like most men do hanging down below/at the waist (more like a briefcase or laptop bag maybe?).
~ Ellie
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(I made the s lowercase so it didn't look as much like PMS... ;D)

An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
6/23/18 - FIRST PRIDE!
8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
9/08/18 - I'M IN LOVE!!!!
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Kylo

Quote from: Janes Groove on September 13, 2017, 09:47:14 PM
That's interesting Viktor, I had never considered that, but I still believe there is a social component there.  For example if I would have carried my books like a girl at my all boys Catholic prep school back in the 70s? 
I would have gotten the stuffing beat out of me.

Also, I find it interesting how women carry grocery baskets at the market.  Holding their arm at a right angle to their body with the forearm supporting the weight of the basket. Like carrying a purse.  While men carry the basket down low with the weight supported by a hand grip.  It wasn't until I transitioned that I started carrying it like a woman and I must say it's not natural for me, but it's another way to blend and be read as female.

Oh yes, I'm sure there's a social component. I vividly remember how girls used to carry their bags and coats in school, coats over the arm or against the body, bags over the shoulder to the side, versus the way boys used to carry theirs, coats over the shoulder or down in one hand, bags usually backpack-style. I don't recall any of them mixing and matching it, except perhaps myself. The anomaly that I was. I don't remember noticing it back then either, but the memory image is fresh in mind still.

I don't remember the boys ever discussing it, but I do remember the girls policing each other in terms of how they walked, what they looked like and how they generally carried things and themselves.
"If the freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter."
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The Flying Lemur

Hey, Kylen!  Awesome list.  I never noticed the handbasket thing myself . . . I'll be sure not to carry it in the crook of my arm in future. 

I can only think of one thing to add to your advice--women make "affirmative comments" when they listen to other people, especially other women.  An affirmative comment is like "Mmm,"  "Oh!"  or, "Really!"  You technically can talk over the other person, but not in a way that shuts out what they're saying.   You're encouraging them to say more.  I can remember hearing my mother on the phone listening to a female friend complain: "Oh no!"  "I'm so sorry," "He didn't!"  "That's terrible!"  Affirmative comments are all you would hear.

Affirmative comments are the grease that keeps female to female (and often female to male) communication going.  If you stop saying those encouraging little phrases, a sensitive female acquaintance will assume you're not interested, and shut down.  Some men will keep talking, but the ones with better social skills won't.  If you were ever wondering how women can find out such intimate details about their friends, affirmative comments have a lot to do with it.   (Also, it's worth noting that you can't fake interest for long.  You have to encourage people to keep talking and actually be interested in what they're saying.) 
The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. --Joseph Campbell
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SonadoraXVX

Women can usually critique everything,  and get away with it. I should know. I work with a 95% GG(genetic girl) workforce population, born and raised as one and I have heard all manners of discussion. Even some across the aisles comment with others on the other side direct and indirect conversations.
To know thyself is to be blessed, but to know others is to prevent supreme headaches
Sun Tzu said it best, "To know thyself is half the battle won, but to know yourself and the enemy, is to win 100% of the battles".



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pretty pauline

Quote from: KarynMcD on September 13, 2017, 05:30:32 AM
Great post!Well, the guys do.  ;)

That made me smile, it reminded of an awarkard situation at a friend's wedding about 10 years ago, we were all having fun on the dance floor, when I sat down for a drink cocktail, a guy whispered in my ear ''I love the color of your underwear'' I was shocked and blushed with embarrassment, he was smirking, I was mortified, I obviously didn't observe ''ladies etiquette''
So everything that Kylen Kantari says regarding skirts and dresses is very true, specially at social occasions or just sitting on a train facing men, legs tight together, or on a windy platform keeping a dress under control, it's definitely not worth blushes and embarrassment and smugness attention from smirking men.
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
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TomTuttle

I think the general attributes drummed into girls are... To be very cautious of everything and tbh slighlty underconfident but not so shy and awkward that you aren't enthusiastic and polite. Be very aware of people looking at you: keep your legs closed etc, smile as much as possible, worry about how you look and take pride in it too, move with a bit of finnesse and actually be aware of the people looking at you and question their motives. Be very socially active and aware, empathetic and again, please people with your smiley enthusiastic self.... but don't be too enthusiastic and get "bossy" (again, they almost want you to be slightly underconfident). Be very intelligent because you aren't expected to do manual jobs and also boys are just known to do worse accademically, but also play down the intelligence when interacting romantically with guys because otherwise they'll think you're bossy, scary, or when having intelligent discussions, will think their opinion is correct with no basis and will override you. Oh and pretty much be able to do everything that a guy can do if necessary (tho nothing that will make you look embarrissingly manly because people will think you're wierd and they will tell you) but also everything stereotypically female, at the same time, and be seen as significantly worse at the guy stuff.

I have to get really snarky with this stuff because its all stupid, and I get told off for breaking all of it all the time. But it comes with the perks that you get to express yourself more than guys, you have more freedom in gender roles and expression than guys without your womanhood being questioned (e.g. guys can't do ballet without being ridiculed but women can play football (I mean soccer not American football, I'm English) every day without getting more than occasional odd comments. Also women can wear trousers but men can't wear skirts.) and definite perks of being able to get things. I've walked into a club before with a friend and immediately been offered drinks from a drunk dude, and he dissapeared afterwards so we didn't even have to interact with him.

Oh and I see that part of the original post was removed for being slut shaming - but beware, slut shaming is a normal thing that everyone does to women (including other women and the authorities) so that's one of the bad things that you can't avoid.
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judithlynn

Hi y'all;
When I first transitioned some 32 years ago, my therapist gave me the following guide to being socialised as female - sort of an aide memoire to use as a guide when observing other women: Hope it helps:-

Gender Differences
1) What are the differences that distinguish the way men and woman walk? Do men and women of the same approximate size tend to walk about the same speed?

2) Do two women walking together tend to walk differently than a man and a woman walking together? If so, in what ways?

3) Is a woman's posture, body position, orientation, etc. different from that of a man while sitting at a table having coffee or a meal? When with a man? When with another woman? When alone?

4) Do men generally make more or less eye contact with the person they are talking to? Are there differences in eye contact when speaking as compared to listening? How about women?

5) Do women and men tend to smile equally frequently during casual conversation? While conducting business?

6) What are the differences in the ways women and men position their arms when sitting? How about their hands? And their legs?

7) How do men and women differ in the ways they tend to position their bodies in chairs or on sofas?

8) If pitch alone is not as important as some people might believe in differentiating a woman's from a man's voice then what speech characteristics are especially important?

9) Do women or men drivers tend to look around more while waiting at a stoplight in a car? Are there age, social class, or ethnic differences?

10) Are there differences between the ways men and women move their eyes and mouths during conversation?

11) Do women and men differ in the ways they stand and leave from a seated position? How about initiating a seated position?

12) If a woman touches her nose when with another person or during a conversation in what ways is she likely to do so? How does a man touch his nose?

13) What are some ways in which men and women use their hands to express themselves during conversations?

14) Are men or women more likely to touch their hair when in the presence of another? How does their touching differ?

15) Do women and men differ in the way they clap? Sneeze? Laugh? Cough?

16) How is a women likely to hold a phone? Is it the same as a man?

17) Are there any differences in the way a woman walks when wearing slacks as compared to a skirt or dress?

18) Do women and men stand at a curb differently while waiting to cross the street?

19) When listening during a conversation are men as likely to nod their heads as women? When does a women nod her head? A man? How do head nods differ for the two genders?

20) How does a man wave good-bye? A woman? How do women and men say hello?

21) Are there differences in the ways men and women terminate phone conversations? Casual conversations? Business conversations? How about opening telephone conversations?

22) How do the ways a woman uses a tissue or handkerchief while in the presence of another person differ from that of a man?

23) Does a woman position her hands on the steering wheel the same as a man while driving a car? While at a stoplight?

24) Are woman as inclined as men to place their hands in their pockets? Under what circumstances?

25) Estimate the percentage of women between the ages of 20 and 30 who wear mini skirts. Between 30 and 40? Between 40 and 50? Over 50? Answer the same question for people wearing shorts.

26) Is the behaviour of a woman more like a man's in a formal business setting? How about a casual social situation with business associates, or at a party?

27) Are men or women more likely to lean forward while engaged in conversation?

28) What are some conversational strategies or devices by which women seek to build cooperation and community? Do men generally have similar styles?

29) How do women and men differ in being verbally competitive? Are both genders likely to behave the same when competing, expressing differences in opinion, asking questions, etc.?

30) Are there differences in the frequency of statements of affirmation or denial as compared to the frequency of asking questions in the daily conversations of men and women?

31) Do women generally dress differently in various parts of the London Area. How about men? What are the differences for different communities in your geographical area?

32) What are some age, social class, and ethnic differences in the ways women use cosmetics, style their hair, wear jewellery, etc.? Answer the same question for men.

33) What do the two genders do with their hands while standing and talking to another person? While just standing and looking or waiting?

34) Do women and men look differently when riding bicycles? How do women and men athletes look while riding bicycles? On the street? In competition?

35) Do the two genders differ in the ways they talk to children? Play with children? Discipline children? Teach children?

36) What can you learn about hair styles, makeup, grooming, jewellery, various types of clothing, etc. from observing women and men models in newspaper, magazine, and television ads and catalogs for clothing? How do these various features of a person combine to produce an effect, generate feelings, etc.?

37) Notice the many different approaches women have in wearing jewellery and using makeup. How do you decide if a woman is wearing too much makeup or jewellery? Are there times when a certain amount of jewellery is actually needed?

38) What are the differences between men and women in holding and drinking from a cup or glass? Are women as likely as men to drink directly from a soda or beer bottle in a restaurant? What kind of restaurant? What time of the day?

39) Do women and men differ in the way they eat popcorn, a hamburger, an apple, etc.?

40) Do hair styles and the length of hair for men and women tend to change over a person's life span?

41) What are some topics one is likely to find women discussing with each other in casual conversation? In a business conversation? When with men? Answer the same question for men, when together and when with women.

42) Are there differences between women and men in their tendency to look at other people who are walking toward them from the opposite direction while, for example, walking down a sidewalk or shopping mall?

43) How do women and men express disagreement? Anger? Happiness? Sadness? Joy?

44) Do men or women swing their arms more while walking?

45) Are there differences in pacing, speed, and rhythm in the ways women and men move through their daily activities?

46) What are some differences between the two genders in various forms of touching another person of: a) the same gender, and b) the opposite gender?

47) Are there differences between men and women in teasing others? Who teases whom? Are there differences in arguing? Who argues with whom?

48) Is it true that women speak one way when with other women, another way when engaged in business or professional activities, a third way when with men socially, and still a fourth way when with children? Are there differences for men under similar conditions?

49) Do women tell jokes as often as men? When the two genders tell jokes, in general, do they tell different kinds of jokes, jokes with different themes, etc.?

50) Observe the expressions communicated in the eyes of men and women in various advertisements for clothes, sports equipment, cars, cosmetics, and foods. Notice both expressions depicted in magazine and newspaper ads and television commercials. What differences do you see in warmth, power, softness, aggressiveness, attractiveness, intensity, and various other emotions as suggested by the appearance of peoples' eyes? Also, notice how the expression in a person's eyes and mouth combine to produce a certain look. In those cases involving action notice how the eyes, the brows, and the mouth work together to communicate different emotions and feelings. What other attributes of a person contribute to differences in facial expressions in the two genders?

Judith
:-*
Hugs



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elkie-t

Someone might make a great PhD in gender psychology by answering those questions with appropriate research backing it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Artesia

Quote from: elkie-t on September 18, 2017, 10:39:38 PM
Someone might make a great PhD in gender psychology by answering those questions with appropriate research backing it


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am aiming for that, but my school counselor calls it a PsyD.  1 semester in to my bachelor's in psychology, lots of writing, why they require creative writing, I don't know.  I will get to the doctorate in time to have my own practice for 8 years before hitting my retirement age, if that.  My quick math says that I will get it at 61 years old.  Bachelor's 4 years, Master's 5-7 years, and Doctorate another 5-7 years.  It'll be so worth it!
All the worlds a joke, and the people, merely punchlines

September 13, 2016 HRT start date
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Roll

Quote
24) Are woman as inclined as men to place their hands in their pockets? Under what circumstances?

Trick question! Women don't have pockets!
~ Ellie
■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■
I ALWAYS WELCOME PMs!
(I made the s lowercase so it didn't look as much like PMS... ;D)

An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
6/23/18 - FIRST PRIDE!
8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
9/08/18 - I'M IN LOVE!!!!
2/27/19 - Name Change!

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Artesia

Quote from: Roll on September 18, 2017, 11:12:16 PM
Trick question! Women don't have pockets!

I beg to differ, My purse has 4 pockets, and yes I put my hands in them.....to get stuff.
All the worlds a joke, and the people, merely punchlines

September 13, 2016 HRT start date
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echo7

Men are socialized not to express their emotions.  Except for one emotion - anger.  It's ok for men to express anger.  But only toward other men, or toward no one in particular.  It is not socially acceptable for men to express anger toward women however.

Women on the other hand are socialized to express all their emotions.  Except for one emotion - anger.  It's not ok for women to express anger, ESPECIALLY toward a man.  That is a huge no-no.  The only time a woman is permitted to express anger is if she is in an all-female environment.  Even then, it carries risks and she may still be chided or shunned for doing so.

I was watching the news recently on TV, and a journalist was talking about the recent Equifax security breach.  When they interviewed a man, he said "it makes me angry that my personal information was stolen".  When they interviewed a woman, she said "it's very frustrating what happened."  Neither of them were visibly emotional, but you could see that even in their choice of words they were following social norms for expressing emotion.

As an MtF trans woman, if you want to conform to female socialization, you'll need to change your vocabulary and stop using words like "pissed off" and "angry".  Instead you can use words like "frustrated" or "annoyed".

This is just one example of the many changes that are involved in transitioning that go beyond the physical.  I believe the best way to learn these things is simply by spending more time with cis female friends.  Over time, you'll naturally pick up these small nuances of female socialization.
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pretty pauline

Quote from: echo7 on September 19, 2017, 01:53:52 AM
I believe the best way to learn these things is simply by spending more time with cis female friends.  Over time, you'll naturally pick up these small nuances of female socialization.
Absolutely true, after 30 years living as a woman you do pick up the nuances of female socialization, but the best thing I ever did when I got married over 7 years ago, I joined a women group that consisted of mostly housewives, apart from learning to cook etc, but socialing as a woman and discussing daily stuff that all women have to deal with, female interaction comes natural to me now, I'm just 1 of the girls.
Quote from: echo7 on September 19, 2017, 01:53:52 AM

As an MtF trans woman, if you want to conform to female socialization, you'll need to change your vocabulary and stop using words like "pissed off" and "angry".  Instead you can use words like "frustrated" or "annoyed".

That made me smile, I never hear that at my women group, but hubby uses it all the time LOL
If your going thru hell, just keep going.
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Roll

Quote from: echo7 on September 19, 2017, 01:53:52 AM

As an MtF trans woman, if you want to conform to female socialization, you'll need to change your vocabulary and stop using words like "pissed off" and "angry".  Instead you can use words like "frustrated" or "annoyed".


This might be a little on the generational side though, as I see countless teenage girls, my sister included, say pissed off. Way more than I ever have actually. (My go to is a sigh followed by "I'm very irritated right now".)
~ Ellie
■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■
I ALWAYS WELCOME PMs!
(I made the s lowercase so it didn't look as much like PMS... ;D)

An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
6/23/18 - FIRST PRIDE!
8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
9/08/18 - I'M IN LOVE!!!!
2/27/19 - Name Change!

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