Quote from: arice on September 19, 2017, 07:37:55 PM
You don't have to like the lesbians who present as male. Their identity and expression have nothing to do with you.  That it makes your life difficult is your problem not theirs.
Every person should be free to express themselves through the clothing and hairstyles that make them feel most comfortable and confident. This needs to be true for both men and women though it currently is not. Respecting people's gender expression is just as important as respecting their gender identity.
The social climate that gives you the freedom to medically transition is the same one that lets women wear pants and have short hair. 

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So you are telling me as a person of color that, that should I say the black lesbians acting like men doesn't affect me and how people precieve me? Cuz you got a lot of studs walking around here and I am not talking about those in which you can still tell they are girls, I am talking about the ones who go all out but say they have no gender idenity issues. As I already stated I don't care what you do but just like they have free will to do as they please, I hsve free will to my oppinion.
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Quote from: Brandon on September 19, 2017, 09:37:54 PM
So you are telling me as a person of color that, that should I say the black lesbians acting like men doesn't affect me and how people precieve me? Cuz you got a lot of studs walking around here and I am not talking about those in which you can still tell they are girls, I am talking about the ones who go all out but say they have no gender idenity issues. As I already stated I don't care what you do but just like they have free will to do as they please, I hsve free will to my oppinion.

Of course you are free to your opinion and others are free to judge you based on it. Freedom of opinion/peech etc does not mean freedom from the consequences of it. I am saying that their identity is as valid as yours and that they probably don't care whether you like it... Their identity is about them not you just like your identity is about you not them (or me or anyone else). I'm not saying you have to like it, just that your opinion on it doesn't matter to them.

Also, I'm sure it does influence how people perceive you but you ultimately can't control that. All you can control is how you respond. I don't particularly like being mistaken for a lesbian either but that doesn't make me lash out at lesbians. If anything, it has made me more understanding of what lesbians are experiencing.
Ultimately, you can only do you and other people will do them.

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Quote from: arice on September 19, 2017, 09:41:45 PM
I am saying that their identity is as valid as yours and that they probably don't care whether you like it... Their identity is about them not you just like your identity is about you not them (or me or anyone else). I'm not saying you have to like it, just that your opinion on it doesn't matter to them.

Also, I'm sure it does influence how people perceive you but you ultimately can't control that. All you can control is how you respond. I don't particularly like being mistaken for a lesbian either but that doesn't make me last out at lesbians. If anything, it has made me more understanding of what lesbians are experiencing.
Ultimately, you can only do you and other people will do them.

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I am sure they don't care if I like it or not but do I care lol? No. Never said anything about their identity either as I don't care how you identify yourself. I simply stated it causes confusion and it does and the only reason I don't like it is because of my traditional views and again I am talking about those that go full out with it.

Gender identity, sexual and romantic orientation, gender expression, and gender roles are complex things, and very few of us wear detailed labels describing just how we are and how we identify.

I have had people question my identity, apparently under the assumption that I am a gay male doing this for some reason they couldn't express.  I've had 'supportive' people tell me "you look just like a real woman".  The thing is, even though they thought that the questions were valid, I personally found them invasive and insulting.

Lesbian women wearing more masculine apparel face the same thing, others effectively challenging their very identity because they are doing something that others find confusing or 'not right', which these women find invasive and insulting.

Please remember that all of us, lesbian, gay, straight, or transgender, are human beings, with human feelings.  Please just accept others as they are.  We are not entitled to know what's in the pants of others, or their most private selves.  Empathy is vital.   Please consider how comfortable you would be in receiving questions, comments, or criticism that you want to offer others.  Try to put yourselves in their place.

Quote from: Michelle_P on September 19, 2017, 10:18:41 PM
Gender identity, sexual and romantic orientation, gender expression, and gender roles are complex things, and very few of us wear detailed labels describing just how we are and how we identify.

I have had people question my identity, apparently under the assumption that I am a gay male doing this for some reason they couldn't express.  I've had 'supportive' people tell me "you look just like a real woman".  The thing is, even though they thought that the questions were valid, I personally found them invasive and insulting.

Lesbian women wearing more masculine apparel face the same thing, others effectively challenging their very identity because they are doing something that others find confusing or 'not right', which these women find invasive and insulting.

Please remember that all of us, lesbian, gay, straight, or transgender, are human beings, with human feelings.  Please just accept others as they are.  We are not entitled to know what's in the pants of others, or their most private selves.  Empathy is vital.   Please consider how comfortable you would be in receiving questions, comments, or criticism that you want to offer others.  Try to put yourselves in their place.

So by that logic they are presenting themselves as male? Which for the life me I couldn't understand how any transmen would be nessciacrily okay with that. Like I said I am only speaking on that ones that try their hardest to look like men and then gets mad when someone refers to them as one. You can't make everyone accept everyone lol. That right there is why alot of non lgbt people get mad because you are forcing it on someone but that's a whole nother topic for a different time. In no way am I trying to be rude I am just saying it bugs me and if how you identify also falls in line with how you present yourself then yes most of those women that look like dudes are identifying themselves as male without even knowing it.

They are presenting as human beings. Gender identity, sexual and romantic orientation, gender expression and roles are all continuums.

Trying to fit everyone into the single gender binary demanded by Western culture will cause one to be confused, as all of we gender variant and gender incongruent persons simply don't fit that model.

Demanding that we humans all follow the misconceptions of a single binary enforced by one culture is precisely what drives many of us into anxiety and depression, as we are forced to hide our true selves for fear of upsetting the dominant culture and inviting attack.

Please don't do that. It really is not appreciated.

I am a woman.
I am attracted to other women. I present quite femme. I happen to be a pre-op transgender person.

I AM NOT A STRAIGHT MAN DRESSED AS A GIRL.

I am simply presenting as myself, as I feel most comfortable.

A butch lesbian is simply dressing as she feels comfortable.

I cannot make others accept me, but I can complain about the damage they cause with their absurd opinions about how others should be.

I am a human being. Details about what happens to be under my clothing, about my precise nature, are nobody's business but my own. If I choose to share intimate details that is my business, but neither I nor anyone else owes others an explanation about their existence.

We exist. We have a right to exist. If some one person is confused by seeing us, that is entirely their problem.


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One of my regular clients is extremely masculine. She dresses in guy clothes and she gets different styles of buzz cuts. She always specifies that she wants a male haircut. I use she because she identifies as female, at least she does to me. I don't know if she's lesbian, trans or what. I would never ask someone a question like that. I figure they will tell me what they want me to know. I don't really care what she is because she's a nice person and a good customer. Personally I don't care what sex someone appears to be as long as they are a nice person.

I agree that people should be allowed to dress or present as they please but I disagree with the notion that "how it affects you isn't their problem, it's yours". While it's true that you can't control what others do, that type of attitude and kind of thinking is what's wrong with the world. No one cares about how their actions affect others.

That being said, I don't think a woman dressing like a man or vice versa is that damaging to trans people. What's damaging is how the uneducated majority react to the way people dress or present themselves. Those are the people who need to stop and think about how they're affecting others with their judgement.

Marlene Dietrich , Madonna are the best to be able to pull off that illusions the best and I love. So what,  if you have an issue with what somebody choose to wear


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Quote from: Contravene on September 20, 2017, 09:21:18 PM
I agree that people should be allowed to dress or present as they please but I disagree with the notion that "how it affects you isn't their problem, it's yours". While it's true that you can't control what others do, that type of attitude and kind of thinking is what's wrong with the world. No one cares about how their actions affect others.

That being said, I don't think a woman dressing like a man or vice versa is that damaging to trans people. What's damaging is how the uneducated majority react to the way people dress or present themselves. Those are the people who need to stop and think about how they're affecting others with their judgement.

I agree that people should think about how their actions affect others when it comes to being maliciously hurtful. However, the clothing and hairstyle choices one person makes do not fit into that category. Would you want to be told that your gender expression is a random stranger's business or problem and that you should think about their feelings every morning when you pick out your outfit? I'm sure you wouldn't, neither do butch lesbians.

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It should just become the norm to ask someone what their pronouns are. Then they'd be no problems if someone finds someone else's gender expression 'confusing'. It shouldn't be taken as insulting. And it's the easiest way to be respectable and polite instead of just making assumptions.

QuoteSo by that logic they are presenting themselves as male? Which for the life me I couldn't understand how any transmen would be nessciacrily okay with that. Like I said I am only speaking on that ones that try their hardest to look like men and then gets mad when someone refers to them as one. You can't make everyone accept everyone lol. That right there is why alot of non lgbt people get mad because you are forcing it on someone but that's a whole nother topic for a different time. In no way am I trying to be rude I am just saying it bugs me and if how you identify also falls in line with how you present yourself then yes most of those women that look like dudes are identifying themselves as male without even knowing it.

How you identify falling in line with how you present yourself? So if you dress in a manner that society has defined as manly you therefore MUST identify as a man??? That is so limiting. And quite frankly it astonishes me when we as trans folks think along these lines. Identifying themselves as male without knowing it?? They are identifying as masculine yes. But clothing does not define gender. Wow.

Presentation does not equal identity. I have presented as both male and female, and passed both ways, but no matter how I present, that is not a statement on or pre-requisite for my identity.

I am a woman, who likes women, and who also likes comfortable flannel, levi's and a fluffy short haircut. I don't wear makeup.

In your attempt to claim that butch cis women are somehow trampling on your space, you are forgetting that there also trans women like myself who occupy the butch lesbian space.

Don't equate presentation to gender identity.

Quote from: arice on September 21, 2017, 03:03:16 PM
I agree that people should think about how their actions affect others when it comes to being maliciously hurtful. However, the clothing and hairstyle choices one person makes do not fit into that category. Would you want to be told that your gender expression is a random stranger's business or problem and that you should think about their feelings every morning when you pick out your outfit? I'm sure you wouldn't, neither do butch lesbians.

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That was more or less what I said in my second paragraph.

Quote from: Contravene on September 21, 2017, 07:40:07 PM
That was more or less what I said in my second paragraph.

Forgive my misunderstanding... I got hung up on the first paragraph where you said the opposite...

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Quote from: CMD042414 on September 21, 2017, 04:23:00 PM
How you identify falling in line with how you present yourself? So if you dress in a manner that society has defined as manly you therefore MUST identify as a man??? That is so limiting. And quite frankly it astonishes me when we as trans folks think along these lines. Identifying themselves as male without knowing it?? They are identifying as masculine yes. But clothing does not define gender. Wow.

Well I mean there are clothes for men and women for a reason? I am sorry you guys disagree with my views but its all in how you present yourself and you are essentially presenting yourself as male???  Hence as to why, if a lesbian looked liked a dude and had no signs of boobs or anything they would get clocked as male on the street that's my point and if a stud lesbian should I say is presneting herself as male, that would become apart of her identity and as I have said this is why transmen don't get taken seriously in the early stages

Quote from: Averyel on September 21, 2017, 05:38:34 PM
Presentation does not equal identity. I have presented as both male and female, and passed both ways, but no matter how I present, that is not a statement on or pre-requisite for my identity.

I am a woman, who likes women, and who also likes comfortable flannel, levi's and a fluffy short haircut. I don't wear makeup.

In your attempt to claim that butch cis women are somehow trampling on your space, you are forgetting that there also trans women like myself who occupy the butch lesbian space.

Don't equate presentation to gender identity.

That goes for evrerybody that identifies theirself as butch or as a stud.

Quote from: Elis on September 21, 2017, 03:26:31 PM
It should just become the norm to ask someone what their pronouns are. Then they'd be no problems if someone finds someone else's gender expression 'confusing'. It shouldn't be taken as insulting. And it's the easiest way to be respectable and polite instead of just making assumptions.

If that's the case then why do some lesbians get mad when you ask them if they are a dude or a girl? That don't always work my friend and no one has time to sit here and ask what you prefer they are gonna clock you based on how you present yourself.

Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2017, 03:20:38 AM
If that's the case then why do some lesbians get mad when you ask them if they are a dude or a girl? That don't always work my friend and no one has time to sit here and ask what you prefer they are gonna clock you based on how you present yourself.

The gender cues are there, you just have to be able to see them - something that comes with experience..

Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2017, 03:15:47 AM
Well I mean there are clothes for men and women for a reason?

For the same reason we separate toys by gender and assign pink to girls and blue to boys. These are societal norms that came about as a result of ignorant, narrowminded thinking eons ago. Essentially your argument is akin to saying to butch women, "I get read as a lesbian in the early stages of my transition so can you kindly just stop being who you are and dress like a woman is supposed to? Thanks."