Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2017, 03:20:38 AM
If that's the case then why do some lesbians get mad when you ask them if they are a dude or a girl? That don't always work my friend and no one has time to sit here and ask what you prefer they are gonna clock you based on how you present yourself.

Because that would be rude and confrontational. I meant it should become the norm that as well as introducing your name to a new person you should also state what your pronouns are or as well as asking what someone's name is; which wouldn't be considered rude you'd also ask what they pronouns they use.

Many people happen to look androgynous. It shouldn't be assumed that by asking what pronouns you use I'm implying that to me you look like a man or woman; just that you look in between and I want to avoid possible embarrassment, dysphoria being triggered or rudeness by making sure I'm referring to you in the right way.

Quote from: CMD042414 on September 22, 2017, 05:54:07 AM
For the same reason we separate toys by gender and assign pink to girls and blue to boys. These are societal norms that came about as a result of ignorant, narrowminded thinking eons ago. Essentially your argument is akin to saying to butch women, "I get read as a lesbian in the early stages of my transition so can you kindly just stop being who you are and dress like a woman is supposed to? Thanks."

No that goes both ways I don't even think men should dress like women. It goes both ways for me and actually, I am not even speaking on my behalf lol, 90% of the time, I get clocked for male. So thats not my issue I am talkimg about the people that can't pass and its not even just about passing, in general I think trans people would get taken seriously if people would dress in gender appropriate clothes, that's ny oppinion. So now I am narrowminded because I am a traditional guy? I guess I will be narrowminded then because if I had a son or a daughter, they would dress in gender appropriate clothes and my daughter would be in and pink and my son in blue. You can't call somebody stuff like that because just because it doesn't fit your ideas.

Quote from: Elis on September 22, 2017, 05:59:32 AM
Because that would be rude and confrontational. I meant it should become the norm that as well as introducing your name to a new person you should also state what your pronouns are or as well as asking what someone's name is; which wouldn't be considered rude you'd also ask what they pronouns they use.

Many people happen to look androgynous. It shouldn't be assumed that by asking what pronouns you use I'm implying that to me you look like a man or woman; just that you look in between and I want to avoid possible embarrassment, dysphoria being triggered or rudeness by making sure I'm referring to you in the right way.

I am sorry I feel as if you look like a dude and someone calls you a guy you shouldn't get mad when thats how you are presenting yourself and no one is gonna take the time to do that, that's my point. I don't even do that if I see someone that looks in between at work.

Quote from: Brandon on September 22, 2017, 08:01:42 AM
I am sorry I feel as if you look like a dude and someone calls you a guy you shouldn't get mad when thats how you are presenting yourself and no one is gonna take the time to do that, that's my point. I don't even do that if I see someone that looks in between at work.

If it became the norm like introducing ones name it wouldn't be seen as a big deal. I don't think people should choose between what clothes they feel comfortable in and being referred to as the correct gender; whether cis or trans.

Trousers used to be for men only; so did shirts and wearing pink. Should women stay away from those things because they could get referred to as male despite them liking how those things look on themselves and a polite pronoun question would solve the issue?

Quote from: Elis on September 22, 2017, 08:21:33 AM
If it became the norm like introducing ones name it wouldn't be seen as a big deal. I don't think people should choose between what clothes they feel comfortable in and being referred to as the correct gender; whether cis or trans.

Trousers used to be for men only; so did shirts and wearing pink. Should women stay away from those things because they could get referred to as male despite them liking how those things look on themselves and a polite pronoun question would solve the issue?

Dude we are not talking about back in the day we are talking present day. This is why I don't really like talking to people in the lgbt community because I can't have a logical conversation with some of you. Obviously back in the trousers were meant for men only and not only that there are trousers now for women that you can clearly tell are for women, same for shirts and whatever, so that comment didn't really make sense tbh and we are talking present day anyways where there are 2 sections for men or women. If you really can't see how it would cause confusion then idk man and I have come across people that even if you ask whats your pronous or slip up they will get pissy, in my oppinion its doing to much.

Be the change in the world you wish to see, gender presentation included. There is no real reason to malign others for their clothing choices or how they present on the masculine, feminine spectrum. There is no reason to keep things as they were or feel uncomfortable.

As a culture we can move beyond all that. The result is a much more interesting and diverse bunch of humans.

Quote from: RobynD on September 22, 2017, 01:46:56 PM
. . . There is no real reason to malign others for their clothing choices or how they present on the masculine, feminine spectrum. There is no reason to keep things as they were or feel uncomfortable.

As a culture we can move beyond all that. The result is a much more interesting and diverse bunch of humans.

Exactly.

If a butch lesbian is wearing clothes that seem masculine, she's not wearing "men's clothes."  She's wearing HER clothes.  End of story.

Quote from: itsApril on September 22, 2017, 01:58:41 PM
Exactly.

If a butch lesbian is wearing clothes that seem masculine, she's not wearing "men's clothes."  She's wearing HER clothes.  End of story.

Exactly!  Clothes don't have a gender.

Frankly, I find this argument about "appropriate clothes for your gender" a bit silly and confining. 

Brandon, what if you have a daughter that you make wear pink and dresses and she hated it?  Aren't you forcing her to fit into your idea of "what's appropriate for girls" and perpetuating the gender stereotype that you are currently in as a trans person?

I'm just asking.

Ryuichi

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Brandon, and others wondering about all this gender identity, presentation, and role stuff, I put something together just for you.

This is a 35 minute presentation on the topic. There is a link on the YouTube page to handouts that go along with the talk.

Please take a look. I hope this will clear up some of the confusion I see in these posts.



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I think some think it's either/or, but the truth is they could be trans and lesbian. We tend to think of our gender first and it seems gays think of sexuality first, but all of us tick off boxes in the gender and sexuality category. They may not self-identify as trans, but the male gender is more acceptable with  the female sex than the reverse and that has its social consequences. I just see them as people that are on a particular part of several spectrums like all of us.


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Quote from: itsApril on September 22, 2017, 01:58:41 PM
Exactly.

If a butch lesbian is wearing clothes that seem masculine, she's not wearing "men's clothes."  She's wearing HER clothes.  End of story.

I am sorry but I strongly disagree and I can now see why alot if people have an issue with the lgbt community because in a way you are twisting things to make it suit you and for your own comfort and I am trying to be as respectful as possible but I see it. I am not with all the new age of thinking. Maybe its because of my relgiious background but thats not ment for this section but i can't get with it. Its still mens clothes.

Quote from: Ryuichi13 on September 22, 2017, 05:06:19 PM
Exactly!  Clothes don't have a gender.

Frankly, I find this argument about "appropriate clothes for your gender" a bit silly and confining. 

Brandon, what if you have a daughter that you make wear pink and dresses and she hated it?  Aren't you forcing her to fit into your idea of "what's appropriate for girls" and perpetuating the gender stereotype that you are currently in as a trans person?

I'm just asking.

Ryuichi

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As a baby, she's not gonna know whats going on but when she's old enough to speak she can wear blue but as far as dressing like a boy, no. I stand by the belief that you should raise a child up in the way should go and alot of you might disagree but again that's my belief, now if she gets older and is not comfortable then we can have a converstaion but she's gonna be a kid, its no need for all that.

Quote from: Brandon on September 23, 2017, 12:11:12 AM
As a baby, she's not gonna know whats going on but when she's old enough to speak she can wear blue but as far as dressing like a boy, no. I stand by the belief that you should raise a child up in the way should go and alot of you might disagree but again that's my belief, now if she gets older and is not comfortable then we can have a converstaion but she's gonna be a kid, its no need for all that.

I hope you never have a trans child..

Quote from: kelly_aus on September 23, 2017, 12:48:16 AM
I hope you never have a trans child..

And if I do I will still be a great Dad lol, just because I happen to be a transguy myself doesn't mean i gotta have the same views as you and if you read, I said if they were uncomfortable, we would talk about it but you missed that. I mean really what's so wrong with wanting my daughter to wear girl clothes and son to wear boy clothes or even pink and blue, that's how you distinguish babies??? This right here again is why the lgbt community is not taken seriously.

No, that right there is why 41% of us take a concrete swan dive. Brandon, most of us have discovered that no one really cares what we're doing or what we look like. We just need to let everybody do their thing, even the little ones. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Brandon on September 23, 2017, 12:07:25 AM
Maybe its because of my relgiious background but thats not ment for this section but i can't get with it. Its still mens clothes.

And I'm sure you've used some roundabout logic to square away being trans with your religious background. Dude, if you were born a cis male you'd probably be the anti-lgbt type. Like straight up, yo. The hilarious thing about this is, you obviously have to have some degree of "tolerance" of us lgbtq's because of an unfortunate roll of the dice. You really sound like the Ben Carson of the trans community.

Quote from: CMD042414 on September 23, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
And I'm sure you've used some roundabout logic to square away being trans with your religious background. Dude, if you were born a cis male you'd probably be the anti-lgbt type. Like straight up, yo. The hilarious thing about this is, you obviously have to have some degree of "tolerance" of us lgbtq's because of an unfortunate roll of the dice. You really sound like the Ben Carson of the trans community.

Maybe, maybe not. I think the lgbt community needs to make their tent bigger. The prayer book and hymnal are pretty limited and musterbation exists as bad as some SoCon circles. It's ok if others don't follow the script religiously or barely at all.


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Quote from: CMD042414 on September 23, 2017, 01:12:12 PM
And I'm sure you've used some roundabout logic to square away being trans with your religious background. Dude, if you were born a cis male you'd probably be the anti-lgbt type. Like straight up, yo. The hilarious thing about this is, you obviously have to have some degree of "tolerance" of us lgbtq's because of an unfortunate roll of the dice. You really sound like the Ben Carson of the trans community.

Don't know what you are trying to get at in your first sentence but that's between me and my creator and the bible doesn't speak about that but this isn't a religious forum. I wouldn't be anti lgbt if i was a cis male, I have a right to disagree with some of the things reguarding lgbt and I find it mighty funny that is soon as a trans person says there religious people like you laugh. Its funny to me really. This is why I don't even involve myself with the community.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on September 23, 2017, 06:55:46 AM
No, that right there is why 41% of us take a concrete swan dive. Brandon, most of us have discovered that no one really cares what we're doing or what we look like. We just need to let everybody do their thing, even the little ones. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Devlyn, one of the more challenging groups that I've come across in teaching about gender issues is...  the LGBTQ community!                         

I've run across the most amazing misconceptions there, stuff long known to be untrue by psychologists and trivially refuted, if they are willing to listen.  (No examples, as almost all are ToS violations!)

Tough crowd here.  Don't expect to change the opinion of anyone ideologically wedded to their misconceptions.  Presenting facts just makes that person clutch their ideology even more tightly.



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Whoa, this thread certainly got interesting.

As a binary transman, frankly, I couldn't possibly care less how anyone else wants to present themselves. Did masculine-presenting lesbians make it tougher pre-everything? Not directly (and through no fault of their own), but sure. There was no part of me that enjoyed being read as a lesbian but that's just how it went down.

It's not up to me or anyone to make choices for someone else. This is where 'opinions' can easily become toxic, especially if held by a majority.
IE: "I think lesbians and gays are disgusting and shouldn't be allowed to marry or even be in relationships!"
Majority rules, laws get passed, people's lives get steamrolled because of feelings.

I can't wrap my head around how people can't just accept that not everyone is the same and just roll with it.

The clothing argument is forced to me because clothing is so subjective and heavily dependent on whatever way society happens to be leaning. Look at the eighties, for god's sake: Everyone was androgynous. Everyone had huge hair, makeup, tons of accessories and spandex. 'Men's' clothing from that era would be scoffed at now but it was once more than perfectly acceptable.
They're just clothes. It's not the butch lesbian's fault that what she likes to wear sometimes puts us in a social bind.