If I had the luxury of being able to live mostly stealth vs a known "One of Those", I'd RUN for stealth. My early childhood training, where I learned that beeing seen/known as "Different" is a very bad thing.

But I don't have that luxury, especially this late in life and a well established career in a niche industry. Oh... and that big ugly 6ft tall bald guy thing too. For me the choice lies somewhere between an "In Your Face" activist on one end, or keeping my head down (In shame?) and try to blend in as best as possible. I am, as they say, "Somewhere on the Spectrum"

Quote from: Nina on September 22, 2017, 06:42:28 PM
I sort of understand. I don't have any gay/lesbian/trans friends that I know of. Nor do I belong to any trans related functions or been associated with pride.
I've never been political or stand up for anything...I like flying under the radar, it's nots that I don't believe in a cause, just not involved. Does it make me a bad person? Probably.
Because of all this, that's why I'm on Susan's...sort of to connect through others, but that's it - online only. Maybe one day I'll change.

I'm the very same Nina, you've taken the words out of my mouth, so to speak, these days I'm just another boring housewife, life is just so normal as the woman I am, the normality of it all.

Quote from: Allie24 on September 22, 2017, 07:56:03 PM
I am sorry that the initial post came across as vitriolic as it did. It was written in a very emotional state of mind. I felt like I had to get it off my chest because it had been sitting there festering for months. But I of course would have benefited from a calmer post. Please forgive me.

You have nothing to be sorry for. I'll say it again. Everything you said was appropriate, valuable, and worth hearing. Society is becoming reprehensibly averse to the expression of emotion, particularly angst since there is just so much of it, but we're in a rather special place in all of this, no? I agree with your original post completely. Ignore any efforts to shame you into visibility.

Like I'd imagine you do, I come here because there is valuable information to be exchanged about this topic that we all deal with in one way or another, and requisite services, processes, laws, etc. And for all the garbage I've survived, I feel the need to perhaps leave some cairn stones behind for future runners of the same path.

That's the extent of it. This exchange is a resource we need. We do so behind avatars, aliases, and other obfuscations that make it possible to share what we want, maybe have some kind words for likeminded others, and still lead a normal(ish) life. A lot of us do our time in the trenches and want out when possible. That is nothing to feel guilty over.

I know it might be difficult to hear over the bells still ringing in celebration of depathologization, but the key word is "dysphoria". That means it's a bad trip. Some people see this whole experience as a good trip. My advice is, don't even think about letting people who have a much different and sunnier perspective on this experience impinge on your sense of what is true and how you feel about your place in all of this. Let others do what they feel inclined to do. You have your own life to live.

There are honorable stealthers (many on this forum) and pariah activists (Jenner). If you don't want this matter to define your life, do your best to transition well and live according to your own nature. Living stealth is a beautiful thing and quite frankly we shouldn't need to martyr that ideal just for the whole "trans is beautiful" motif that all too often, for many of us, misses the entire spirit of how all this even came to visibility in the first place.

I'm glad that you haven't left, Allie.  I think that your original post caught some members off guard, but obviously everyone is on your side.  I haven't been a member very long myself, and at first even my membership felt too open for me.  I even posted things and then deleted them, like a mouse peeping out of a hole and then running back to cover.  I'm glad I stayed, though.  I don't think that Susan's Place is activist per se.  Mainly, I think, its a place where we know that there are other people who have gone through, or are going through, the same thing.

Quote from: Dena on September 22, 2017, 05:43:56 PM
I monitor the accounts up for deletion and it's common to see somebody who has finished their treatment put their account up for deletion as part of disconnecting from the community. Some may return as mentors like I have but most will not.

I finally find a school I like, then I have to think about graduation!   That makes me feel strangely sad.  I hope that in the future, "graduates" will often come back and tell us how they are doing.  That goes especially for you, Julia.

I would do stealth in a heartbeat. Who wouldn't want to be seen as a cisgirl. It would eliminate so many potential problems when living a female life. Can I achieve stealth? I don't think so. It's not a definite no, since physically I'm kinda like Frank Dillane, but probably not. So, I'm left with the self-acceptance thing about being trans in public. Some of us can dream I guess.

Quote from: MaryT on September 23, 2017, 10:57:36 AM
I'm glad that you haven't left, Allie.  I think that your original post caught some members off guard, but obviously everyone is on your side.  I haven't been a member very long myself, and at first even my membership felt too open for me.  I even posted things and then deleted them, like a mouse peeping out of a hole and then running back to cover.  I'm glad I stayed, though.  I don't think that Susan's Place is activist per se.  Mainly, I think, its a place where we know that there are other people who have gone through, or are going through, the same thing.

I finally find a school I like, then I have to think about graduation!   That makes me feel strangely sad.  I hope that in the future, "graduates" will often come back and tell us how they are doing.  That goes especially for you, Julia.

Aww that's sweet. But even after I have SRS I wouldn't delete my account. I know some people think of the surgery as the finish but I don't think there ever really is a finish to being trans. Besides, I consider so many of you good friends that I wouldn't leave the site after SRS. See...you were all nice to me so now you can't get rid of me. Julia the stray cat. LOL.

I appreciate everyone's input here. I'm glad that I have this place to go to when struggling with this process. None of what I said in the original post is stone-cold conviction. I don't want to be isolated, but at the moment, drawing near is a very difficult thing to do. I'm in a place where I don't want to be outed and I don't even want to think about the parts of my body that still don't match and being immersed in the trans community has triggered a lot of those negative emotions and set off some negative defense mechanisms. But I need this community. We understand each other and we know our struggles and we lift each other up, so even though I say I don't want to be a part of it, what I really should be saying is "I want to want to be a part of it." And all of you are truly wonderful souls and I am glad for your advice... sharing my feelings on this thread have brought me closer to this whole community. Thank you, thank you.

From Dena:

"The second view point comes from my therapy group dating back over 35 years. The thought was the transition is a temporary thing that takes you where you need to be. After it's completed, the best indication that is was successful is blending back into society. This means your issues are resolved and you are a part of normal social  and work relations without having your transgender past becoming a part of it. It's not so much hiding your  past but instead it no longer has a place in your day to day life."

Or OU812:

"I know it might be difficult to hear over the bells still ringing in celebration of depathologization, but the key word is "dysphoria". That means it's a bad trip. Some people see this whole experience as a good trip. My advice is, don't even think about letting people who have a much different and sunnier perspective on this experience impinge on your sense of what is true and how you feel about your place in all of this. Let others do what they feel inclined to do. You have your own life to live.

There are honorable stealthers (many on this forum) and pariah activists (Jenner). If you don't want this matter to define your life, do your best to transition well and live according to your own nature. Living stealth is a beautiful thing and quite frankly we shouldn't need to martyr that ideal just for the whole "trans is beautiful" motif that all too often, for many of us, misses the entire spirit of how all this even came to visibility in the first place."

The bottom line is, it is your life. Live it as you see fit.

Julia good to know you don't plan on leaving us.  We were all stray cats when we found this place.

Allie we all benefit from others experiences. Living just as our natural self is most everyone's dream here. I'm glad you can have that. Please continue to hang out with us here.

Quote from: JoanneB on September 23, 2017, 06:34:29 AM
My early childhood training, where I learned that beeing seen/known as "Different" is a very bad thing.

I fought that dragon too and its a mean one. Since, i knew it was wrong and frankly a bland way to look at life, i made myself stand out and be different, took the looks, took the times with virtually no normality, smile at people that scowl, correct people that misgender all the while being my sweet optimistic self There are days it is really hard.

Most importantly i made sure i had a lot of friends around me that accepted me. I see the culture as i was raised in like the Borg for Star Trek. I will not be assimilated even if it kills me.

Quote from: Allie24 on September 22, 2017, 01:21:21 PM
Over the past several months I have been wanting to distance myself from the trans community and trans activism because, to put it simply, I really do not like being trans or associating myself with anything trans-related. I live my day to day life in stealth mode. I don't talk about it. No one gives me problems for it. And I feel happy to be treated like a "normal" person. As soon as I reveal being trans, I'm afraid of people looking at me differently or treating me differently. Like my female acquaintances will see me as a "gay bestie" and my male acquaintances will become wary of me... like I'll start preying on them or something. I also don't want to deal with bathroom problems if someone I know or work with will suddenly develop a problem with me using the women's restroom or locker room at work. And then there is this attitude a lot of people seem to be forming about trans people... especially trans women. They think we're these pushy, chauvinistic, stereotype-obsessed, predatory, fetishistic, lesbophobic jerks... they call us SJWs and all those fun buzzwords Internet people like to use. The last thing I want is someone leaping down my throat or thinking I'm gonna start giving them a lecture on how not to be a "transmisogynist" and start acting like a drag queen with super exaggerated mannerisms... ugh. I'm not even super-political. Transitioning isn't a political statement to me. I just want to live my life. That's it!

And I guess you can say it's not all about discrimination. I don't really like being in the trans community either because it reminds me too much of where I have come from... the fact that I was born male and have to TRANSition. I don't connect with other trans women really well. I also don't talk about gender or have as much pride in my gender as others in the community do. I told my therapist that I felt that pride in the trans community is like having pride for being diabetic. To me, I have a mental illness and I am undergoing treatment. I don't want to talk to anyone about it and I sure as heck don't want to shout it from the rooftops.

But anyway, this has become a long and rambling post. Bottom line, this whole attitude is giving me a sick feeling and I don't really think it is a very positive attitude to hold. That said, these things that I think and feel are strong so they're not easily given up. And in the world we are living in today, if I have a chance at dodging discrimination, I don't think I'm wrong to take it. Everyone wants to feel safe, right?

I don't know. Is there anyone here who has similar feelings and can maybe help me sort this all out? I don't want to be disconnected from my people... I think it's wrong that I am, but all the same, I'm having trouble diving in. Not to mention that I can be pretty judgmental of the appearance and passing-ability of other trans women (it's a defense mechanism, I do it to boost my self esteem, but only in my head, I could never vocalize the things I think in there).

I know this all might make me sound like an unkind person but I'm just struggling. I started this transition process in 2015, and at that time I celebrated it, but now I'm just bitter. So much has changed, and the political atmosphere I think has a lot to do with that.

Advice?

-Allie

I think it is really quite easy to understand where Allie is coming from. Some of us do not view that very difficult process of changing our sex as something to be celebrated.  I saw it as something to get behind me as quickly as possible. Some of us just want to get through the process quietly and then get on with our lives as the men and women that we are. Some of us do not want to be something other than than just plain boringly normal people, not some special protected class. Some of us, certainly a tiny minority, do not enjoy nor need to be told how to think. Some of us enjoy being individuals, following our own path using our own best judgement and not subject to some doctrine or belief enforced by others.

The catch 22 is that none of us enjoy being seen by society as mentally ill, and yet we need the designation of mental illness to access healthcare that is otherwise unaffordable.  It puts us in an awkward spot.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 25, 2017, 10:28:01 PM
The catch 22 is that none of us enjoy being seen by society as mentally ill, and yet we need the designation of mental illness to access healthcare that is otherwise unaffordable.  It puts us in an awkward spot.

I know my opinion may not be the most popular one here but based on my experience I would say that what I have is some form of mental illness. Whether it be psychological or neurological or both... I don't know. Science isn't there yet. What I do know is that the feeling of gender dysphoria is debilitating and inhibits my functioning in almost all areas of my life. Prior to treatmemt I was reclusive and avoiding relationships and afraid of intimacy. I also felt fairly certain that by the age of 30 I would have had enough and would have tried to kill myself. That to me is not a sign of a healthy mind. But after much therapy and beginning transition a lot of these things turned around for me.

Mental illness gets a bad rap. Plenty of people have depression, but would you say they are all insane and a danger to themselves? Of course not. Gender dysphoria, like depression, is an illness that should be recognized, but not stigmatized.

Transition, to me, is by no means an ideal. Ideally I would be either a cis male or cis female. Ideally, I wouldn't have to depend on doctors to help me feel at ease in my own skin... but I do. Healthy people don't need doctors. Sick people do. Healthy people don't want to maim themselves to alleviate distress brought on by specific body parts. Healthy people don't consider suicide as an alternative to living as the sex they were born as. (All of these feelings are derived from my experience, so I understand that not everyone might have experienced dysphoria this way.)

Transition is one of the only methods doctors have to treat this illness, and it works for me. But I think that there are alternatives as well. Detransitioners experience gender dysphoria but are not helped by transition and must seek other methods. Methods that the psychological community have yet to recognize as valid courses of action for gender dysphoric people.

Society needs to change it views on mental illness, and understand that transition is a method of healing a certain type of illness and that the illness, by no means, affects the character of that person.

... this is really not something I can easily condense into a single commemt. Hopefully that all made some sense.

Quote from: rmaddy on September 25, 2017, 10:28:01 PM
The catch 22 is that none of us enjoy being seen by society as mentally ill, and yet we need the designation of mental illness to access healthcare that is otherwise unaffordable.  It puts us in an awkward spot.

I agree with what Allie has posted. Gender dysphoria is medically treatable. I cannot understand why some here would want to stygmitize it. Nor do l understand why some seem to find difficulty accepting a diversity of thought.

Quote from: Complete on September 25, 2017, 11:25:19 PM
I agree with what Allie has posted. Gender dysphoria is medically treatable. I cannot understand why some here would want to stygmitize it. Nor do l understand why some seem to find difficulty accepting a diversity of thought.

I don't recall anyone here stygmatizing gender dysphoria or having difficulty accepting a diversity of thought.  Some members were taken aback by the language in Allie's original post, but they quickly came around to supporting her.

I agree that gender dysphoria is medically treatable, but unlike most of what society regards as mental illnesses, it is ultimately treated by altering the body rather than the mind.  If it can be called a mental illness, it is treated by trying to make what society regards as a "false" belief into a correct belief. 

If I can be briefly insensitive, it reminds me of the song Lily the Pink, which goes
"Old Ebenezer thought he was Julius Caesar, so they put him in a ho-o-ome,
where they gave him Medicinal Compound, now he's Emperor of Rome!"

Quote from: MaryT on September 26, 2017, 07:20:32 AM
I don't recall anyone here stygmatizing gender dysphoria or having difficulty accepting a diversity of thought.  Some members were taken aback by the language in Allie's original post, but they quickly came around to supporting her.

I agree that gender dysphoria is medically treatable, but unlike most of what society regards as mental illnesses, it is ultimately treated by altering the body rather than the mind.  If it can be called a mental illness, it is treated by trying to make what society regards as a "false" belief into a correct belief. 

If I can be briefly insensitive, it reminds me of the song Lily the Pink, which goes
"Old Ebenezer thought he was Julius Caesar, so they put him in a ho-o-ome,
where they gave him Medicinal Compound, now he's Emperor of Rome!"

Just be thankful it's treated with the methods it's treated with today. In the dark ages, the 40s, 50s, and 60s, it was treated with Aversion therapy, ECT, and Lobotomies.

Quote from: Julia1996 on September 26, 2017, 07:28:11 AM
Just be thankful it's treated with the methods it's treated with today. In the dark ages, the 40s, 50s, and 60s, it was treated with Aversion therapy, ECT, and Lobotomies.

True, things have improved.  Even Johns Hopkins has come back around to supporting SRS.

Quote from: Julia1996 on September 26, 2017, 07:28:11 AM
Just be thankful it's treated with the methods it's treated with today. In the dark ages, the 40s, 50s, and 60s, it was treated with Aversion therapy, ECT, and Lobotomies.

For some. Not all. Gender transition was a hard treatment to get. You had scientists like Harry Benjamin, who were sympathetic to gender dysphoric individuals and willing to treat them, but then you had other, less sympathetic folks, who thought it best to employ the methods you describe above.

There was a lot of gatekeeping then, and very few clinics/doctors willing/able to provide treatment. Christine Jorgensen had to go all the way to Europe to have her surgery done.

Also, treatment protocol required that you change your name and address and cut ties with family in order to avoid being outed. As horrible as that is though, considering the times, it was better that you remain anonymous because people could do some horrible things to you if you were ever found out.

We've come a long way since then!

Quote from: Allie24 on September 26, 2017, 11:19:37 AM

Also, treatment protocol required that you change your name and address and cut ties with family in order to avoid being outed. As horrible as that is though, considering the times, it was better that you remain anonymous because people could do some horrible things to you if you were ever found out.

This is partly true and partly myth.

If you were married, you were required to get divorced. You were also expected to "pass", blend in, be stable and prove you could take care of yourself and adjust. You were expected to fit the traditional binary stereotype which included being heterosexual in your new gender. They did suggest that it might be best to move to a new city when starting over but I don't think that was required? There were a lot of hoops to jump through.

In 1974, Dr. Norman Fisk out of Stanford proposed the term Gender Dysphoria because it was recognized some folks still benefited from the transition process that didn't meet the strict diagnostic criteria in use up until then. This also helped to consolidate some of the prevailing theories of the era on how people came to be trans. This was pretty heretical at the time but eventually the standards were relaxed and have continued to be so until until today where the standards and requirements are extremely lax compared to what they were in the past.

From my own experience as an obviously trans child from the 1950's that was first taken to a doctor in 1965 when I was 10, none of the many I saw had a clue about transsexualism, particularly in children. I do know that many that presented with this condition were subject to barbaric therapies or institutionalized but then again, life wasn't so great for homosexual folks either back then. In a lot of ways, being just a kid they had no idea what to do with, I was pretty lucky.

In spite of my youth and how obvious my situation was, I was smart enough to keep my mouth shut about what was really going on because I indeed feared being taken away from my parents and put away somewhere. By the time I was 15/16, my situation had become intolerable and outside of the school environment most assumed I already was a girl. My folks recognized what was going on for me even if I didn't completely and they spent months and months trying to locate a specialist that might be able to help me as resources outside of some of clinics doing this work were hard find. It wasn't until 1972 when I was 17 that I did meet a doctor that knew what was what and I got put on hormones before starting my senior year of high school. I completed social transition upon graduating in 1973 and had SRS in 1977 at 22.

If it matters, I kind of hate being trans too. It isn't something people know about me and it isn't something I want them to because it is none of their business. That doesn't mean though that I hate myself for being trans.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that no matter how stealth you or how well you're blended, you'd better get used to being trans because you always will be. Even someone like me that transitioned as a teenager and has had a full "normal" life (I'm almost 63), not being born female is something I've always had to deal with, even if only in my own mind. I still need to take hormones. I still need to dilate and I still feel obligated to tell partners at some point in time in serious relationships.

But like I said though, I don't hate myself because of it, just some of the crap you have to deal with at times and also again, most of that is in my own head. If I chose to or let it, this could make me unhappy and frustrated but I've learned over the years that it's not really that bad. Considering there was no other alternative for me, I've made the best of it and have had a pretty terrific life in spite of getting off to a rocky start.

Work on the things you can change and don't sweat the ones you can't. It may take time but you will find a place of peace with all of this.

Quote from: Lisa_K on September 26, 2017, 01:58:17 PM
I do know that many that presented with this condition were subject to barbaric therapies or institutionalized but then again, life wasn't so great for homosexual folks either back then.

My parents, especially my mother, were unsympathetic to my desire to be a girl.  Then again, considering attitudes up to and beyond that point, it is unlikely that any loving parent would want their child to be trans or gay.  "Pretending to be a woman" and homosexuality were both crimes even in Britain, and during that period I lived in more conservative countries.  Even today, some Susan's Place members live in countries where the state could have them put to death if their "crimes" were discovered.