Quote from: KathyLauren on October 09, 2017, 06:25:55 AM
I don't know how well I will be able to pass in the future, but I suspect not well enough to attempt stealth.  I know that I wouldn't want to.  Not judging anyone else, but for me, stealth would be soul-destroying.  I lived 60 years of stealth as a guy and it was sucking the life out of me.  I don't see any difference between being in the closet and being stealth.

When an MtF is in the closet, they are living as a man and hiding their true selves.  When she transitions and lives in stealth, she is living as a woman - as her authentic self.  She is no longer lying about who she is, because she is and always was a woman - maybe not physically, but in her mind and soul, which is where it really matters.  Yes she is still trans, but she is first and foremost a woman.

Being in the closet means hiding the essence of who you are.  Living in stealth may mean hiding a part of who you are, but it's not hiding the essence of who you are.  That's a big difference.

The whole point of my transition was to live as a woman, to simply blend in and live as any other woman. If you want to call that stealth then I am living stealth. If I form a close friendship with someone I may tell them, but that will be a decision I will make on an individual basis.
I don't feel that I'm hiding anything and it's certainly not soul destroying. I had a birth defect corrected that made my body match my mind, I feel no guilt for doing that nor do I feel a need to tell anyone. Several years ago I had a surgery to correct a problem with one of my lungs. It never comes up in conversion and I feel no need to tell anyone. Does that mean I'm hiding it, no, it just means it's information that's not relevant to living day to day life.

Quote from: Barb99 on October 09, 2017, 12:27:18 PM
The whole point of my transition was to live as a woman, to simply blend in and live as any other woman. If you want to call that stealth then I am living stealth. If I form a close friendship with someone I may tell them, but that will be a decision I will make on an individual basis.
I don't feel that I'm hiding anything and it's certainly not soul destroying. I had a birth defect corrected that made my body match my mind, I feel no guilt for doing that nor do I feel a need to tell anyone. Several years ago I had a surgery to correct a problem with one of my lungs. It never comes up in conversion and I feel no need to tell anyone. Does that mean I'm hiding it, no, it just means it's information that's not relevant to living day to day life.

I agree with everything said above, if somebody wants to be out and proud, that's fine, it's very much an individual choice and life circumstances, everybody's situation is different, stealth for me certainly wasn't soul destroying but gave me a whole new lease of life and being accepted and blend in as a normal woman.
I think my husband would be crushed and probably be ridiculed by ignorant and hateful people that his wife was ''born a man'' or he is gay being married to a trans woman, well my hubby certainly isn't gay ( no offence to gay people) he has only ever dated women, we don't have to deal with all that hateful and hurtful nonsense, simply because I'm stealth, I suppose I could say I'm out and proud as a WOMAN!

I can't stand the word "stealth."  The connotations of hiding, when for me living a woman's life is about presenting my most authentic self.  There are other words for describing living this way.  I call it "practicing non-disclosure" or "maintaining a closed narrative." As opposed to having an "open narrative" which is basically being "out." 

But it really all comes down to the truth of your identity and your own understanding of gender, which no one else but you can determine.  Do you identify with one of the binary gender categories, and being gendered correctly within them?  Or do you define yourself somewhere in between, or by your dysphoria and transition?

If you're currently practicing non-disclosure, know this: "coming out" is a ritual (from the LGB side of the community) that's basically a request to be treated differently than how you're being treated now; it's a way to be placed in a different social category.  For most cis people in the West, who only understand the gender binary, you'll effectively be asking people to misgender you, which might not be wise if you were gender dysphoric once upon a time. 

Quote from: Sophia Sage on October 09, 2017, 04:48:27 PM
I can't stand the word "stealth."  The connotations of hiding, when for me living a woman's life is about presenting my most authentic self.  There are other words for describing living this way.  I call it "practicing non-disclosure" or "maintaining a closed narrative." As opposed to having an "open narrative" which is basically being "out." 

I really like your terms here. I think this is a very individual thing that is based on many factors from how you wish to socialize, to what makes you up as a person emotionally etc. I'm pretty out and proud about the whole thing and it does not really trigger dysphoria for me. It is never a perfect thing, there are positive times and negative times but I don't consider myself to have had a "birth defect" at all. It is just how i was born, positive and negative.

So i don't think maintaining a closed narrative is necessarily negative at all. It could be what the person really needs. But, if a person is experiencing guilt about not being an activist or the like, guilt does try and speak to us. So maybe such a person should consider being more open. The flip side is also true for someone that is very open but finds themselves experiencing more negative than they can handle.

Quote from: warlockmaker on October 09, 2017, 05:47:33 AM
I pass fully and I feel we should have pride in who we are and hiding only shows your shame.

I hope you realize that statements like that show that you believe being out makes you morally superior to those that are stealth ... and that is simply not the case.

How long has it been since you transitioned?

Can you understand that some don't want the rest of their lives defined by having needed to change sex?

It is not about shame and these days many times not about fear either... (in many places being known as TS is not as dangerous as it once was)

It's about quality/texture of life and wanting to be able to focus on other things. I can tell you that this stuff can get VERY old (I went full time over 20 years ago ad SRS 19 years ago ). There should be a lot more to life than having to explain who one is all the time or have to prove one self in ways others don't have to, to new people.

All that said, I can't be stealth... but wish I could be. Not because I am ashamed... This was the most difficult thing I have ever done and is a big reason to be proud of MYSELF... but that happened long ago and life needs to goes on...

So while being out fits you NOW, it might not 10 years from now... and even if it does maybe by then you will understand that it does not suit others for reasons that have nothing to do with shame.

- karen

Karen. Read my profile. You transitioned 20 years ago, I had my srs 2 years ago, we belong to a new generation that your generation gave us the courage to become. We evolve and greatly understand more about being tg. Are you not proud that we can now also be proud we are TGs.

You are not stealth, Being stealth has great potential consequences, and demonstrates as others have said that you live in fear of disclosure. And what if you are found out? Will your friends abandon you, will your husband abandon you? If they do are they really who you want in your life.

Being open as a tg does not mean we are activists or advocates. Its is not spendingg your whole life explaining yourself. It also does not mean we are not female  but as the Dalia Lama said we cherish who we are so that we can understand ourselves and help others. We are not born female, we have lived 2 lives, thats a celebration. Sadly the God religions morality has caused so much pain to LGBTs, and giiven such shame that many live in stealth.

A comment from another forum member saying that her husband would be embarassed if others knew he was married to a former man. ------ Our LGBT movement started with gays, and now we have same sex marriages. Gays pride has proven its success and today being openly gay is becomming normal. I hope our TG community has that same pride and embrace the fact we are TGs.

There are so many different needs and such differences in how our personalities demonstrate themselves. Others can do what I can not do and the other way around.

My old life needed coping mechanisms that protected me, that hid pain and struggles and kept those around me from knowing me. That was a cold, isolated loner of a life that almost killed me. I am transgender and transitioning has given me a new life. A huge part of that life, for me, is living openly an transparently. Being able to live without secrets or hiding things is a primary driver in my life and is allowing me amazing growth. Speaking only for me, if I were to try to live stealth it would take away half of what I have gained and would do damage to my heart and soul. If you want and can live in stealth more blessings to you. I have neither the strength nor desire to try to pull that off. I need transparency with those in my life; relationships, to know and be known in this world is life to me.

 I transitioned openly at my last job some of these people I worked with for over twenty years. I hoped they would see that it was a positive change for me.  Some people saw the truth in that, others shunned me.                                   
  The company I worked at was sold and the new owners wanted to move it from California to Maryland. So I started looking for work at other company's in the field that I had worked in for thirty years. There were  several company's in the area doing that kind of work and I knew people that worked at all of them. People that I knew would not return calls, and interviews would suddenly get canceled with vague explanations. I helped design some of the products and train the people at these places and prior to this my knowledge and expertise was sought after.
I needed to move and start over where no one knew me personally prior to my transition. I am now working at company that only has known me as Stephanie. I feel much better in this situation they respect my ability, and I am treated like woman instead of a leper.
I tried being open and was naive to think I could change peoples prejudice, stealth is much better for me.

Quote from: Allie24 on October 09, 2017, 10:38:35 AM
I actually agree with you on this. This is the reason I have backed out trans activism, because I feel like now it represents a post-genderist/trans-humanist ideology that I just can't support. Ensuring that gender-nonconforming and transsexual people are not discriminated against or victims of violence are causes I feel like are worth fighting for, because their condition is supported by science and their treatments are proven effective. But promoting the idea of people modifying their bodies as if they were video game avatars, purely for aesthetic purposes, and adopting the language of trans people in order to defend their choices... that's a completely different agenda. I also feel like that's the one that people think of when they hear "transgender" these days (which is also a word I'm not super crazy about).

I also agree with Julia in that people will look at you differently. The people I work with know me as female. As soon as I tell them I'm trans, they may not see me as male, but they won't see me the way they did before when they assumed I was just another cis woman. I also can't risk that getting around, because I work in a big hotel and there are a lot of people in it... someone might have a problem and might give me issues with the bathroom and locker room that I use.

Again l find myself agreeing with some of our youngest members. Right on, ladies.

Quote from: warlockmaker on October 09, 2017, 08:15:00 PM
Karen. Read my profile. You transitioned 20 years ago, I had my srs 2 years ago, we belong to a new generation that your generation gave us the courage to become.

At least where I live things were not very different in this respect 20 years ago than they are now. BTW over the years I've know a number who felt like you do but eventually moved to mostly stealth lives.

Don't be surprised if your attitude changes as you older... Its not a generation thing, it's an experience thing.

I forgot you were the person who said none of us can pass well enough for stealth as well... and while that is true for me, it's not true get every one I have met...

You are obviously very invested in believing being out is the only "right" way to be... so much so that I'm not sure you are open to trying to understand that all you believe about stealth is not always true. A lot depends on the individual, their emotional makeup and how they see themselves.

There are also degrees. Most who I would call stealth have a few good friends and/or an SO that know.

I will agree that one should never be stealth to a spouse, but that said I've known some who were that seemed to me were good people.

Quote
We evolve and greatly understand more about being tg. Are you not proud that we can now also be proud we are TGs.

Do you see how that comment assumes the identity of all of us?

Quote
Being open as a tg does not mean we are activists or advocates. Its is not spendingg your whole life explaining yourself.

While I'm not stealth I have had "stealth"  friendships, and there is a difference, though sometimes it is very subtle. Does it matter? That depends on you (meaning each individual TS)..

Quote
Sadly the God religions morality has caused so much pain to LGBTs, and giiven such shame that many live in stealth.

You obviously believe that all stealth is rooted in shame. That simply is not so, but you you won't believe what other people tell you about where it comes from for them ...

I don't know how you can be is sure you believe you know where they are coming from better  than they do themselves.

Sure you can come up with anecdotal evidence to support your beliefs ... but those are not universals.

My question to you is why are you so invested in believing all stealth is based in shame?

Can't you just accept that others feelings and experiences  can be different from yours?

- Karen

 Karen, To quote  a famous black american -- if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem ---. I am 69 years old and mature, my views will not change, I am so well know as a TG that there will never be stealth. How active I am about TGs may change but that  pride will always be there.

Be stealth if you wish but its not a healthy mental state. And yes, its a fact, we are all TGs, like it or not. More and more countries are giving or considering 3rd gender IDs. Nepal, Thailand, Taiwan, UK, and EU.  For us equal rights as cis people for jobs, marriage travel and respect is what we seek.

So you believe in being partially stealth, you would tell your partner. Why do that if you are stealth? So lying to one is not the same as lying to another. Hard logic to understand.

We need to seek a solution that allows us to be who we are openly, be it mtf or ftm and I appluad and am grateful for all those activists and advocates. Be proud to be a tg a menber of the diversity of humans.

Quote from: echo7 on October 09, 2017, 10:48:08 AM
This was really insulting.  You accuse those who are living in stealth of hiding in shame, while at the same time demanding respect from them?  That's messed up.

Totally agree with you.

I disagree that we must be proud of being TG. Prior to surgery, and post surgery, I've never been proud to be trans. Why should I?

Proud to be trans  absolutely. Insulting? Who is going to fight for our rights. Those in stealth ? No. If you are stealth then you owe those who boldly fight for your rights. We fight for the next generation so that they can be proud. Remember gay pride has been effective. Before that gays lived in the closet.

 Some of us do not have the financial resources to be out and proud, the reality of life dictates otherwise. The smug righteousness of some that do is troubling.   

Quote from: warlockmaker on October 10, 2017, 12:22:48 AM
Karen, To quote  a famous black american -- if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem ---. I am 69 years old and mature, my views will not change, I am so well know as a TG that there will never be stealth. How active I am about TGs may change but that  pride will always be there.

Be stealth if you wish but its not a healthy mental state. And yes, its a fact, we are all TGs, like it or not. More and more countries are giving or considering 3rd gender IDs. Nepal, Thailand, Taiwan, UK, and EU.  For us equal rights as cis people for jobs, marriage travel and respect is what we seek.

So you believe in being partially stealth, you would tell your partner. Why do that if you are stealth? So lying to one is not the same as lying to another. Hard logic to understand.

We need to seek a solution that allows us to be who we are openly, be it mtf or ftm and I appluad and am grateful for all those activists and advocates. Be proud to be a tg a menber of the diversity of humans.

What solution?  We can't change how others behave. In Thailand being trans might be no big deal but for those of us in the USA and other countries there is always the possibility of being assaulted or even killed. Not telling people I'm trans is not lying. I'm not pretending to be a woman. I AM a woman. And it's no one elses business that I'm trans unless I'm having sex with him. I told my boyfriend because it was his business but to me it was more like telling him about a birth defect I had fixed.

And I do appreciate those who came before me and I thank them for everything they have done. I'm glad for those who are out and proud. I'm glad they can be happy being totally out and open. I never could be.

I think everyone has their own reasons for choosing stealth or loud and proud. It's a very personal matter, and each decision is as respectable as the other.

In my case, I wouldn't want "transgender" to be the first adjective in my biography. It's a part of me, but not the most important. That's why I don't carry a flag that says "I'm trans" with me unless it's a special event (though I did like a tee that said "nobody knows I'm transgender").

On the other hand, the objective of my transition was to be myself, and I can't omit how I was born. All of my friends know I'm trans, most of my professors do, and a few old classmates also. If you are going to be in my life, I want you to like me for who I am, the whole of me, so you need to know I was born with a male body. I don't want people in my life that would treat me different because of my gender, and telling  I'm trans helps me to keep away from them.

I also stopped caring about what others say about me after transitioning, so they can go ahead and call me "trans guy", "->-bleeped-<-", "ugly trany" and whatever they come up with, I won't let that affect me, even less stop me from being myself.

Quote from: Barb99 on October 09, 2017, 12:27:18 PM
The whole point of my transition was to live as a woman, to simply blend in and live as any other woman. If you want to call that stealth then I am living stealth. If I form a close friendship with someone I may tell them, but that will be a decision I will make on an individual basis.
I don't feel that I'm hiding anything and it's certainly not soul destroying. I had a birth defect corrected that made my body match my mind, I feel no guilt for doing that nor do I feel a need to tell anyone. Several years ago I had a surgery to correct a problem with one of my lungs. It never comes up in conversion and I feel no need to tell anyone. Does that mean I'm hiding it, no, it just means it's information that's not relevant to living day to day life.

Exactly this. Thank you Barb99. Now I don't have to type all of that. Those who preach (I use that word deliberately) that the only way to be trans is to be an in-your-face activist practice the same "my way or the highway" attitude as the churches they castigate.

I'm in the early stages, but if I get to the point of passing in public, I don't intend to wave flags in people's faces. I have a widening circle of friends who know, and I've been acting as an educator and advocate with them. But it's not likely I'm going to be marching in any parades or doing interviews on TV. I am in the process of treating a medical condition, and, assuming the treatment is effective, I don't intend to advertise it to the world any more than I'd advertise the correction of a cleft palate.

After a painful half century of "living stealth" by hiding who I really am, I only wish to find quiet contentment living authentically. I respect those who have the fire in their belly and put themselves on the front lines. I only ask that they respect my choices as well.

Stephanie

Quote from: warlockmaker on October 10, 2017, 05:55:20 AM
Proud to be trans  absolutely. Insulting? Who is going to fight for our rights. Those in stealth ? No. If you are stealth then you owe those who boldly fight for your rights. We fight for the next generation so that they can be proud. Remember gay pride has been effective. Before that gays lived in the closet.

I can be "stealth" and still fight for and support the rights of others. I vote for representatives that support rights for minority groups, I voice my opinions to others that aren't supportive of others rights. I don't need to stand on my soap box and proclaim myself trans in order to do that. There are many ways to fight for our rights.

Quote from: warlockmaker on October 10, 2017, 12:22:48 AM
Karen, To quote  a famous black american -- if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem ---. I am 69 years old and mature, my views will not change, I am so well know as a TG that there will never be stealth. How active I am about TGs may change but that  pride will always be there.

Be stealth if you wish but its not a healthy mental state. And yes, its a fact, we are all TGs, like it or not. More and more countries are giving or considering 3rd gender IDs. Nepal, Thailand, Taiwan, UK, and EU.  For us equal rights as cis people for jobs, marriage travel and respect is what we seek.

So you believe in being partially stealth, you would tell your partner. Why do that if you are stealth? So lying to one is not the same as lying to another. Hard logic to understand.

We need to seek a solution that allows us to be who we are openly, be it mtf or ftm and I appluad and am grateful for all those activists and advocates. Be proud to be a tg a menber of the diversity of humans.

I think it depends on what you view being trans to be. I consider it to be a medical condition. Do people go around talking about having cancer or struggling with schizophrenia in casual conversation? Not in America, that's for sure. Unless you are really close to the other person, or your particular illness may present itself in a very obvious way and you will need others' assistance, or just an open person in general.

I am not sure if you come from America or not, but please, have some respect for our culture. Individualism and privacy are important to a lot of us, and for those who wish to retain it, let them retain it. If trouble comes knocking on our doors, we'll fight it. And don't think we aren't grateful for those who put their necks out for us, because their work really does mean a lot.