some background: i came out to my family several years ago, but haven't been able to access any kind of medical transition.  during the time they've known about my feelings, my family has either argued with me about how i don't know what i'm talking about or just flat-out refused to acknowledge it at all.  due to financial reasons, i have had to live with my grandmother for the past few years.  i have been trying to find a place to move out ever since i got my job, but i can't afford much and i have no one to help me get things figured out, so between places not having openings/being affordable and me not knowing what i'm doing, it's going slowly. 

a few weeks ago, i started seeing a doctor about hormones.  ideally, i would have kept this a secret from my grandmother, but because i live in her house, that wasn't possible.  and now that she knows, she's gone from mostly ignoring me to trying to "talk" to me (for her, "talking" means her going on endlessly about all her made-up reasons for why i'm not an adult capable of making adult decisions like this, and pretending that i have no plans for my future despite me having told her countless times what those plans were) and complaining when i go silent and just wait for her to wear herself out.  it's all i can do, because engaging with her gets me nowhere and only stresses me out for absolutely zero gain.  and with my health, extra stress could literally land me back in the hospital.

the other day, i found a folded stack of papers sitting on the kitchen table.  i picked it up out of curiosity and saw that it was a printed-out article from a right-wing website about how dr. joseph berger said ->-bleeped-<- is fake and "psychosis" and "unhappiness" shouldn't be treated with surgery, with those parts specifically highlighted by her (or whoever it was that printed out the article).

she hasn't confronted me directly with the article, nor have we spoken since the aforementioned "conversation" in which she called me a non-adult and said i wasn't capable of making grownup decisions like getting hormone treatments.  but i fear that's mostly just because i've been lucky.  i work nights, so my schedule is opposite hers.  there's a really scary window of time, about 2 hours every morning when we're both home and awake at the same time, and i just keep praying she'll spend that time getting ready for work and not bothering me.  but i'm sure it won't stay that way for long, especially not with the weekend approaching.

i don't think i can avoid being caught and cornered by her until i move out, and i don't know what to do.  there have been several periods like this where i've just been in a constant state of anxiety because i'm forced to live with her, knowing that if we cross paths at all, she will start in on me again.  it usually dies down after a while, but not without painful one-sided confrontations that leave me shaking and exhausted when she finally leaves, despite me doing my best not to respond to her and just ride it out.  i can't keep doing this.  i sense it's coming and i just can't handle any more.

am i supposed to print out my own articles and just be prepared for intellectual battle?  am i supposed to just become a stone wall and completely ignore her for 20 minutes at a time while she has a go at me, giving her even more ammo by doing something that she perceives as a sign of mental illness (because obviously, avoidant behavior = stupidity/insanity in her eyes, since she can't fathom why anyone would not want to talk to her!)??  or do i say goodbye to what little money i have and pack my things to go stay in a hotel (which i really cannot even begin to afford) until i'm able to sort out this apartment thing?

i don't have friends around who can help.  i don't have a supportive family to turn to.  i'm alone, i'm stuck, and i'm really tired of dealing with this in waves, over and over and over again, with absolutely no way of changing her mind about anything.  i can slap her in the face with evidence of me looking for apartments, point out the fact that i have a job and pay for all my own things like any other adult, and she will still just use "you live here" as an excuse for why i'm mentally a child.  and she will do the same thing with anything related to gender identity.  transgender people are just unhappy or sick in the head, and she has other christians and a supposed "real live scientist!" to back her up, and that's all she needs to know.  anything i say about it will be dismissed and ignored, just like anything i say to her about myself or my plans.  so talking to her is out of the question, but the consequences of not talking to her are just as bad.  i am at my wit's end, it's ridiculous, and i just don't know any more.  i feel like i have nowhere to turn, because there's something horrible in every direction and i'm stuck.


honestly, i meant this thread to be more about how (and whether) to respond to the article she left on the table.  so excuse me for turning it into a rant about living with an unreasonable family member; i'll link a scan of the first page of the article if anyone would like to at least give me some advice on how/whether to respond to that.

link
that's not the whole thing, but that's the only page on which anything had been highlighted, and i think the first page sums it up well enough.  be warned, i'm not a very sensitive person and even i found it pretty offensive.

Big hug!

Print out the Standards of Care and leave it on the kitchen table. Tell her that this is what a mainstream doctor does when they get a transgender client. Tell her they don't use an article from a blog when treating people.

Or just get out. I found in life that I'd rather be on my own.

You're not alone. I'm your friend. 

Hugs, Devlyn

Good advice from Devlyn on giving your grandmother a copy of the standards of care.
I think there are three main types of people we come across:

*allies who will believe and support us.
*the uneducated who given proper factual information will follow sound advice.
*those who only seek validation of their own views.

I hope your grandma is in the second group,  but if in the last,  then greater independence may be your only way forward. X

Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk

believe me, i'm working on getting out of here!  i finally found a place nearby that says it will have an opening soon, so i'm going to request some info from them.  i just hope i can survive the wait...

i hadn't thought of using Standards of Care as my backup; i agree that's a pretty good idea.  even though her own sources are biased, it'd be best not to respond with anything she could construe as biased in return.

thanks for your support, as well.  it's good to know that, even if i'm alone at home, i can come here and find people who are understanding.

leaving a stack of papers on the table is a pretty unsubtle hint that she wanted you to see them, or at least it sounds like it.

If you're feeling inclined you could leave a stack of your own papers about studies on ->-bleeped-<- and leave them on the table as well. If she's bothered to go look up and print out information there's a chance she'll at least look at them.

The problem of people having something to say and dreading them saying it appears to be a common one for trans people. I find the best thing is simply to accept that they're probably going to do it at some point, and to concentrate on not caring. It probably won't be the last time you or any of us have to worry about it. So learning to deal with the state of potential commentary from people we are not interested in is something we all have to do.

If talking is absolutely out of the question, then refuse to discuss the matter. Communication sounds like it's already completely broken down at this point. Say you don't want to talk about it if it's raised and just get up and leave her vicinity. There's not much she can do about that when it comes to it.

As we see the world over, people choose to believe whatever whacky information supports their world view. I would definitely be prepared with material that refutes that. The vast majority of science and thousands of years of existence support us.

At some point you may have to have a pointed but as loving as you can be, conversation with her saying that her espousing those viewpoints to you is definitely not ok, that nothing will change who you are and as your family member you expect acceptance and support from her, because that is the moral thing that everyone expects of their family members.

I looked and can't find a single paper published by Berger on the issue, just arbitrary quotes in articles. Maybe mention that just because someone is a doctor does not make them an expert, particularly in a field as vast and nuanced as psychiatry. Perhaps ask her if she had lung cancer, would she go to a doctor who specializes in melanoma?

I'd also say try to avoid biased political sites, even ones that you may not believe are biased but that she might (ie: Huffington Post). There are numerous articles and studies from organizations without much perceived bias such as the AMA and APA to pull from, and the weight of thousands of physicians or psychologists should certainly outweigh one or whatever handful of psychiatrists she locates if she is willing to be reasonable/objective about the issue.

From the experience with my dad I recently told you about in a previous post; I'd just ignore it. You can't fight people with a personality disorder; which is what your grandma sounds like she has. Best to just walk away and focus on yourself.

Have you thought of looking into hostels if that place falls through? Some aren't terrible and it'll be better for your mental health. Or maybe look into LGBT housing groups for your area on fb. You never know if one person will allow you to hold off on the rent for a bit until you get yourself sorted.

I really hope it gets better for you dude

    I feel for your situation. If nothing else you have us for emotional support anytime you need it. YOU ARE NOT ALONE! I'm always open to a pm when I'm online for those that need a heart to heart, or want to pick my brain on topics I'm well versed in. (Ie. Health, nutrition, fitness, martial arts, security and tactics, philosophy and psychology, though the last one is my weakest area.)

    At some point in your life, if you decide to take the plunge and transition, you will get to a point where you have to intellectually defend how you feel, sometimes even to medical personnel. Your grandmother might be good practice. Just keep in mind stubbornness increases with age. She was raised in a different time, so persuading her to change her mind can be a constant uphill struggle. Just don't make the mistake of letting your emotions getting the best of you and verbally lashing out. Disrespect, even if it is merely a perceived one, can shut off instantly any open-mindedness he may have. If you have more evidence, and from better sources than hers, she might have to rethink her position. Here are a few articles that you can print out for great counter points. It worked with my Dad. Just make sure to read them before trying to use them in a debate.
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/04/heres-the-biggest-study-yet-on-sex-based-brain-differences.html   
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/85/5/2034/2660626/Male-to-Female-Transsexuals-Have-Female-Neuron
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3105355/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4987404/

    As to your living situation, have you looked in local classifieds or taken out your own add regarding looking for a roommate? Splitting costs of living can greatly ease your burden and increase your independence. You don't have to even get along with your roommate, as long as you are both contributing your share you can agree to disagree. It may even lead to changing a mind or two with how those who are only leaning anti-trans might get their eyes opened by interacting with one of us on a frequent basis. You just have to be strong enough to face the obstacles and fears that will be in your way no matter what path you choose. Hope this reaches you before she confronts you. Stay safe and strong.

HUGS!

meatwagon, have you looked into lower income housing in your area? I don't know what it is like where you are, but we have some quite nice lower income situations here. I know that's not ideal and in some places, lower income is synonymous with slum, but if you dont think your situation is safe for you from a mental aspect, it might be better than the consequences of living under that kind of mental oppression.

EDIT: Read all the comments before you reply katie, sheesh. Roomates are a good alternative as well. Perhaps you might even be able to find another transgender person and find some solidarity in your living situation and life.

Quote from: katiekatt on October 11, 2017, 04:15:55 PM
meatwagon, have you looked into lower income housing in your area? I don't know what it is like where you are, but we have some quite nice lower income situations here. I know that's not ideal and in some places, lower income is synonymous with slum, but if you dont think your situation is safe for you from a mental aspect, it might be better than the consequences of living under that kind of mental oppression.

    I don't know that it is so much the stigma of living in a slum or ghetto that is cause for concern so much as safety and crime. We as a community tend to be targets for harassment and violence. I am living in a "bad neighborhood" and one of the only things that allows me not to constantly worry for my safety when I leave the house (on foot and bus, as I am currently without a vehicle) is my military and martial arts training. Most, however, lack that training. As oppressive as her current living situation might be, it is still better than being the victim of assault, rape, or murder. While I admit these problems are not pervasive in every low income area, they are still cause for concern, and a topic that must be considered before surrendering what sanctuary one currently has.

HUGS!

You're absolutely right! I apologize!

Quote from: katiekatt on October 11, 2017, 06:05:20 PM
You're absolutely right! I apologize!

   No need to apologize dear. It's still an option for her to consider, so you were right in mentioning it. None of us knows everything. We're bound to occasionally state something that's not entirely accurate. As this involved safety and the possibility of someone's life being in danger, I felt I had to speak up on it. No reason for you to feel guilty, you, like me, are just trying to help.

HUGS!

Quote from: meatwagon on October 11, 2017, 05:51:10 AM
some background: i came out to my family several years ago, but haven't been able to access any kind of medical transition.  during the time they've known about my feelings, my family has either argued with me about how i don't know what i'm talking about or just flat-out refused to acknowledge it at all.  due to financial reasons, i have had to live with my grandmother for the past few years.  i have been trying to find a place to move out ever since i got my job, but i can't afford much and i have no one to help me get things figured out, so between places not having openings/being affordable and me not knowing what i'm doing, it's going slowly. 

a few weeks ago, i started seeing a doctor about hormones.  ideally, i would have kept this a secret from my grandmother, but because i live in her house, that wasn't possible.  and now that she knows, she's gone from mostly ignoring me to trying to "talk" to me (for her, "talking" means her going on endlessly about all her made-up reasons for why i'm not an adult capable of making adult decisions like this, and pretending that i have no plans for my future despite me having told her countless times what those plans were) and complaining when i go silent and just wait for her to wear herself out.  it's all i can do, because engaging with her gets me nowhere and only stresses me out for absolutely zero gain.  and with my health, extra stress could literally land me back in the hospital.

the other day, i found a folded stack of papers sitting on the kitchen table.  i picked it up out of curiosity and saw that it was a printed-out article from a right-wing website about how dr. joseph berger said ->-bleeped-<- is fake and "psychosis" and "unhappiness" shouldn't be treated with surgery, with those parts specifically highlighted by her (or whoever it was that printed out the article).

she hasn't confronted me directly with the article, nor have we spoken since the aforementioned "conversation" in which she called me a non-adult and said i wasn't capable of making grownup decisions like getting hormone treatments.  but i fear that's mostly just because i've been lucky.  i work nights, so my schedule is opposite hers.  there's a really scary window of time, about 2 hours every morning when we're both home and awake at the same time, and i just keep praying she'll spend that time getting ready for work and not bothering me.  but i'm sure it won't stay that way for long, especially not with the weekend approaching.

i don't think i can avoid being caught and cornered by her until i move out, and i don't know what to do.  there have been several periods like this where i've just been in a constant state of anxiety because i'm forced to live with her, knowing that if we cross paths at all, she will start in on me again.  it usually dies down after a while, but not without painful one-sided confrontations that leave me shaking and exhausted when she finally leaves, despite me doing my best not to respond to her and just ride it out.  i can't keep doing this.  i sense it's coming and i just can't handle any more.

am i supposed to print out my own articles and just be prepared for intellectual battle?  am i supposed to just become a stone wall and completely ignore her for 20 minutes at a time while she has a go at me, giving her even more ammo by doing something that she perceives as a sign of mental illness (because obviously, avoidant behavior = stupidity/insanity in her eyes, since she can't fathom why anyone would not want to talk to her!)??  or do i say goodbye to what little money i have and pack my things to go stay in a hotel (which i really cannot even begin to afford) until i'm able to sort out this apartment thing?

i don't have friends around who can help.  i don't have a supportive family to turn to.  i'm alone, i'm stuck, and i'm really tired of dealing with this in waves, over and over and over again, with absolutely no way of changing her mind about anything.  i can slap her in the face with evidence of me looking for apartments, point out the fact that i have a job and pay for all my own things like any other adult, and she will still just use "you live here" as an excuse for why i'm mentally a child.  and she will do the same thing with anything related to gender identity.  transgender people are just unhappy or sick in the head, and she has other christians and a supposed "real live scientist!" to back her up, and that's all she needs to know.  anything i say about it will be dismissed and ignored, just like anything i say to her about myself or my plans.  so talking to her is out of the question, but the consequences of not talking to her are just as bad.  i am at my wit's end, it's ridiculous, and i just don't know any more.  i feel like i have nowhere to turn, because there's something horrible in every direction and i'm stuck.


honestly, i meant this thread to be more about how (and whether) to respond to the article she left on the table.  so excuse me for turning it into a rant about living with an unreasonable family member; i'll link a scan of the first page of the article if anyone would like to at least give me some advice on how/whether to respond to that.

link
that's not the whole thing, but that's the only page on which anything had been highlighted, and i think the first page sums it up well enough.  be warned, i'm not a very sensitive person and even i found it pretty offensive.

I didn't get it - where is your grandmother involved and such. I must miss the memo...

If someone would bring you this article, I would bring another pro-trans article to her. Or I'd chose to ignore. Or I argue that article by myself - and I would employ different strategies, and the Iast line of defense would be - you won the argument , but I am what I am and will continue to be on my ways and sorry I cannot change myself (even in the light you're totally right and I am totally wrong).

Quote from: elkie-t on October 11, 2017, 09:32:10 PM
I didn't get it - where is your grandmother involved and such. I must miss the memo...

If someone would bring you this article, I would bring another pro-trans article to her. Or I'd chose to ignore. Or I argue that article by myself - and I would employ different strategies, and the Iast line of defense would be - you won the argument , but I am what I am and will continue to be on my ways and sorry I cannot change myself (even in the light you're totally right and I am totally wrong).

    She stated that she has been living with her grandmother for the last few years and is under her rules as such. Hence the concern over her grandmother confronting her with the anti-trans articles and mindset.

    Completely agree with you on her plan of action. Apparently, though unknown to me at the time of posting, those pro-transgender links I provided (which are to medical research articles) have been moderator approved, in case the OP was apprehensive about clicking on them.

HUGS!

oh wow, i wasn't expecting so many replies.  sorry if i can't address them all individually, but i've read them all and appreciate them very much. 

on low-income housing; that's what i've been looking into, as i cannot afford anything else.  unless i were to go to a homeless shelter (which i don't feel comfortable with right now), it's the only affordable option i have found in my area.  i've done roommate searches a few times, but there just isn't anything close enough.  until very recently, i was expecting my friend (who also lives with family in a toxic environment) to come with me.  but she recently got a job where she lives and doesn't want to move away from that yet, so i've had to re-start my housing search with that in mind.  the area i live in is not a "good" area, especially for low-income people/places, and more than one of the apartments i have looked at have reports of people being shot in the parking lots.  one was burned down by an arsonist.  things like bed bugs and bad management are among the minor concerns in some of these places, but it is what it is and the one i just emailed was the better/safer-looking option between the only two i have found that currently have upcoming availability.  most of these places are full, and at least one has declined to give me any information in the meantime.  (and i've told my grandmother most of this, so the fact that she uses me still being stuck where i'm at as her excuse for calling me a mentally deficient non-adult is just... amazing, and not in a good way.)

on articles; i will definitely be giving all of those a read and doing some more searches, avoiding anything that looks like an opinion piece or blog of course.  i've also got the pdf of the standards of care downloaded and read through all of that, as well.  i don't think i want to just leave anything out for her to find, but if/when she does bring it up, i'll at least have plenty of things ready to hand over for her reading pleasure.  it will save me the time and embarrassment of trying to explain things myself.  i'm not good with words.  i can write, but talking is a little hard for me because my brain moves faster than my mouth.  especially lately, when i'm stressed and angry as i have been, i just don't have the strength to engage in a verbal debate with someone like her.  i am just now starting to get over a 6+ months long Crohn's disease flare which has very nearly cost me my job for having to call in sick so many times.  stress is my biggest trigger for symptoms, and i still get sharp pains in my gut whenever i get too anxious.  so the more i can avoid talking to her directly, the better, because she is not the kind of person who will actually listen to whatever i have to say or wait for me to say it.  if i stutter/clutter my speech, she will take the opportunity to interrupt.  if i'm not extremely loud, she will talk over me.  and if i do get loud, she will get angry.  and when she gets angry, which can happen at the drop of a hat with the tiniest perception of "disrespect" (while being baffled by the idea that someone like me would dare to expect respect in return!), she gets very mean and hateful.  she gets even more irrational, starts making up lies, making threats, and saying anything she can to belittle me and assert her dominance.  we've had several of these "talks" before, and they always start and end the same way.  so it's become like an instinct now to just shut down when she tries to start on a topic i've already attempted debating with her, because i've already been there/done that and it wasn't worth it.  if i can just pass her a few pounds of paper, at least they'll keep her occupied for a while even if they don't change her mind.

maybe i'll get lucky and have to work late this week so she'll be out of the house, but it's mostly friday night/saturday morning that concerns me since i tend to get home early or at least on time most fridays, and saturdays she doesn't go anywhere until around noon.  so i guess i've got 2 days to prepare.  :s

    I totally understand on the digestive issue. My wife has Crohns as well and I have a slowly worsening (aka will eventually kill me) case of IBS from the experimental anthrax vaccine the military used from 2000-2004. If she doesn't take your health issues into account when speaking with you, I'm afraid your prospects in dealing with her may be a bit grim. Hopefully you won't have to for much longer.

    Out of those apartment concerns, I'd say crime and bed bugs are the worst. Unlike roaches, bed bugs bite much more frequently and can lead to skin conditions and worse, such as kidney or liver failure. Given a choice between the two, I'd rather face something I can see (crime) rather than an assailant that I can't. Have you looked into rent-to-owns or trailer parks in your area? I know those carry a stigma as well, which in turn leads to lower leasing costs. I'm no longer too proud to admit that my family and I had to live in one till we were doing a bit better financially. There is usually a lower crime level than in a cramped apartment building, since each household has a bit more of their own space.

    If you have friends, maybe one will let you crash on their couch for a night on Friday, even if they are against letting you move in there. You can explain most of the situation without incorporating the trans issue, partly by conveying that you and your health just needs a quick break from dealing with her. Other than that, I'm afraid that I'm out of ideas. Hope something works.

HUGS!

Quote from: meatwagon on October 12, 2017, 12:44:38 AM

i can write, but talking is a little hard for me because my brain moves faster than my mouth. 

I have that same problem. It's not fun when you go into a conversation with a cohesive thought process and dreams of eloquence, yet then somehow wind up stuttering and unable to get your point across, and at least in my case wandering off on tangents. And of course people are quick to jump in, brashly state their own ill conceived opinion without forethought, and somehow manage to walk away on top of the discussion. I've found that having written material at hand does help, almost like you are reading a speech. When I do have the opportunity to prepare beforehand, I know it helps me immensely to be able to stop and take the time to work something out in writing first. Even though I still will be derailed at some point (the best laid plans), it is nonetheless far better than approaching a discussion without said preparation.

If you think your grandmother would have enough respect for you to give you the chance to speak uninterrupted, perhaps explicitly request that before starting the discussion as well. Just a simple heartfelt "Please allow me to say what I need to say first."

Quote from: meatwagon on October 12, 2017, 12:44:38 AM
maybe i'll get lucky and have to work late this week so she'll be out of the house, but it's mostly friday night/saturday morning that concerns me since i tend to get home early or at least on time most fridays, and saturdays she doesn't go anywhere until around noon.  so i guess i've got 2 days to prepare.  :s

Update?

    How did everything go? Are you still waiting to have that talk? Are you ok?

HUGS!

I've got a bit of a different take on this. The real problem isn't your grandmother; the real problem is your feelings of vulnerability toward your grandmother. Let's attack that.

Relationships with older family members are complex – too complex to approach by analysis, at least over the short term. What I think you need to do is consciously shift the way you look at your grandmother. Stop seeing her as any kind of authority figure, and start seeing her simply as a stranger or acquaintance who has offered you temporary room and board. This puts you on an equal plane, authority-wise, in your own mind. If and when she comes at you with articles and authorities, think of these as you would religious literature from her church or cult – as if she's a Jehovah's Witness, Mormon, or some other kind of door-to-door evangelist looking for converts. How would you deal with that kind of person? You might be polite, you might let them talk themselves out; but you wouldn't take them seriously. They might bore you to death, but they wouldn't constitute a threat. You might conclude that they've got some kind of personal problem, but you wouldn't fear them.

And I certainly wouldn't try to argue this issue with her. You wouldn't get very far arguing with a door-to-door evangelist, and it sounds like you wouldn't get very far with her, for the same reason.

This conscious shift in the way you look at your grandmother is only temporary, until you can get out on your own. You don't have to emotionally distance yourself from her permanently; but, for the moment, it may well be necessary. Whether she knows it or not, she is using your emotional vulnerability toward her as a weapon against you; and you can't afford to let that continue. The easiest way to stop that is to throw up a temporary wall between you. Be polite to her, be civil – even kind; but do not give her the deference that a grandchild typically gives a grandparent. When she tears you down, know that she is the one with the problem, not you; and you can't solve her problem for her. Don't even try.

Worst case scenario is that she picks up on your distancing maneuver and throws you out. I don't think that's likely, but it is possible. Some people are perceptive enough to understand the dynamics of this kind of situation instinctively, realize their power has been taken from them and respond with rage and violence. What will probably happen, however, is, once she gets the feeling that the old tactics aren't working, she'll step them up, play her game harder. When that doesn't work, she'll be in the uncomfortable situation of not knowing what to do. That's where the opportunity for change can occur; it's also when things can get dangerous. Without knowing your grandmother, it's hard to know what she's capable of. Just be aware, you may find yourself kicked out, at least temporarily, and accept that as the price of personal peace. I don't really see an alternative.

Be calm, be confident. You know who you are. The less rattled you become under her onslaughts, the more confused she'll become. That's the secret to changing this dynamic, imho.