I used to be a regular here on Susan's years ago. I fully transitioned nearly 10 years go and have been happy.  Most of my trans friends (and I have many!) have been happy with their transitions as well.

Lately in the media I'm seeing  alot of press on those who choose to detransition, and their stories are being used against other trans people who want to transition.  Walt Heyer, for example.

Reasons they're giving:  hormones are dangerous, puberty blockers are dangerous, surgery produces regret, transitioned people still attempt suicide at alarming rates, transition doesn't fix the problem, and, most trans people who transition eventually detransition.  Most of the articles they cite come from the Federalist and other right-leaning sites.  None of these reasons are true for me personlly; I don't argue that hormone replacement therapy isn't without risk, but the risk of not using them, for me, was death.

Reasons I've heard that ring more true: detransitioning in order to keep a job or gain employment or housing, loss of beloved family members who can't accept transition, so transition back to keep loved ones, continual bullying, some rushed transition with informed consent and didn't undergo therapy before taking hormones, then realized they weren't trans after all, and others along those lines.

So I thought I'd go straight to the source: Those of you who  have detransitioned, are considering de-transitioning, or  choosing not to transition.  And if you have a valid health concern about the hormones and/or surgery with research articles, even better.

I'm all for whatever we all need to do to live our lives in the best way possible.  I have no problem talking publicly about people who choose to detransition or not transition. Your stories need to be heard as well  We all need to do what's best for ourselves and I respect your decisions to do what is right for you.

These topics seem to be coming up as more and more youngsters come out as trans, and parents are looking for ways to justify not helping them with their dysphoria.

Thanks.


Jay

Walt Heyer is selling books to a niche audience. No problem with that, it's the spirit of entrepreneurship. His story has nothing to do with anyone else, though, any more than my story is anyone else's. He's simply walking his own path, as we do.

Hugs, Devlyn

So true!  Thanks.

Hi Hon,

I remember you and it's lovely to hear from you again. I hope you are well.

The detransition reports are interesting as when you go to centres that look after TG people there is no evidence to support those 'stories'.

The places I know are the Australian units ranging from Queensland, Melbourne and Adelaide. There is a very low detransition rate and a very low regret rate. The largest paediatric unit at the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne run by the marvellous Dr Michelle Teller reports a detransition rate of less than 0.1%.
All of the centres that I have information on use informed consent that includes counselling and does not correspond to 'hormones on demand'.

The data from Argentina that went to a hormones on demand and even surgery on demand demonstrate a much higher regret and detransition rate. I suspect that it is such data that is being used by people who have an agenda against TG people.

Hi Jay,

Welcome home.

We are looking at culture and society trying to protect itself, in many ways - relying on the old stalwarts of Fear, Obligation and Guilt. In many ways too, if there is dysfunction in the family then it is not uncommon for a degree of codependency to have developed - denial of self for the greater good (or the bigger narcissist), so it becomes easy to conflate our denial of our desires with our need to maintain where we are.

For some folk, their sense of self is sufficiently developed for fog to have little effect, and held in a healthy perspective, and for others, the will to live is greater than the sum of all of the objections, and they are the transitioners. Either end of the spectrum so to speak, and that leaves the gap in the middle, some who do, some who don't, some who try not to and succeed, and some who crash and burn (me), and those who know that they are different, but are unable to quite put a label on it - you'll find us here. 

Hopefully, others will chime in.


Rowan

Doing very well, Cindy!  Thank you.  You're looking fine!  Love the hair! 

I will look into the Argentina angle. I hadn't heard that before. But it makes sense, with no therapy and hormones/surgery on demand, there'd be more regrets.

I didn't realize (since I haven't been in transition in a while) that trans kids can get top surgery with parental consent, and I read a report they've done SRS on minors for MTF as well.  I didn't know minors were, in fact, getting surgery done.  I guess that is alarming to some people who fear regret.


Jay

Quote from: sneakersjay on November 06, 2017, 02:31:13 PM
Doing very well, Cindy!  Thank you.  You're looking fine!  Love the hair! 

I will look into the Argentina angle. I hadn't heard that before. But it makes sense, with no therapy and hormones/surgery on demand, there'd be more regrets.

I didn't realize (since I haven't been in transition in a while) that trans kids can get top surgery with parental consent, and I read a report they've done SRS on minors for MTF as well.  I didn't know minors were, in fact, getting surgery done.  I guess that is alarming to some people who fear regret.


Jay

I haven't heard of minors getting surgery here. Australia still has a Family Court act that kicks in at about 16 for the client to seek cross sex hormones never mind surgery. It is up for repeal but our government is bogged down in self survival rather than doing any government type stuff
It may be possible for FtM to get top surgery at 16-18 but otherwise here it is still over 18 for any surgery. Of course people still go to Thailand if they wish. Clinically I would have thought that bottom surgery would be a bad idea before the body had stopped growing as the neo vagina or phallo would not grow during adolescent or childhood body development.

There people who are making all this talk about regret are not interested evidence and I doubt any amount of evidence will help. I believe there's been good studies on it already.

Personally I've been medically transitioning, but not socially, and the reason is ultimately the social cost in an intolerant society.

I believe SRS is illegal before 18 years old in Thailand. See Clause 5 below

http://www.thailawforum.com/sex-change-operations-law.html

I am the male depleted host/primary alter of a Multiple Personality/Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID/MPD) System resulting from childhood sexual and psychological trauma, and was misdiagnosed as transsexual because of my female alter's need to express herself as another gender. You can read more at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,228889.msg2038352.html#msg2038352 .

There are valid reasons for caution in diagnosis. The most recent clinical statistics available show it is more likely that a person is suffering from DID than they are transsexual:
1% to 3% of the population have Dissociative Identity Disorder according to The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation. About the same as the number of people who are gay/bisexual.
http://www.isst-d.org/downloads/guidelines_revised2011.pdf

Only 0.6% were estimated to be transgender in the Williams Institute's landmark 2016 study.
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf

Complicating things even more, the psyche can completely block all memory and feelings of trauma from the conscious mind. In my case, it took THREE years of therapy to begin to recover my memories of my childhood sexual and psychological abuse.

Transsexuality shares many symptoms with DID and other trauma related disorders resulting from sexual abuse. Transsexuals also experience gender dypshoria, sexual confusion and the feeling of having been born in the wrong body for as long as they can remember. They were bullied and did not fit in with other children who were the same assigned at birth gender. Transsexuals often struggle with the idea they are transsexual, are survivors of childhood sexual and psychological abuse, and suffer from the very same psychological conditions DID uses to mask itself (depression, PTSD, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia). Transsexual people can even have Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Thank you for informing me that I have a serious mental illness rather than a rather straight-forward medical issue, this makes life so much easier. </sarcasm>

Those stats only cover the US, and as such come with cultural bias. In the 4.5 years I was in therapy, there was not even the slightest inkling of any great trauma or abuse. I'm a transsexual with no indications of any mental illness.

The stats you present, whilst they do support your claim, are answerable with other stats that disagree.. Got a statement from a Major Professional Body that makes the same claims?

I'm all for caution in diagnosis.. But I also find that claims such as these do no good for anyone, whilst they do represent your experience, I have serious doubts they represent the experiences of others. 

Virginia, thank you for sharing your experiences.

Like Kelly, I suffered no psychological or sexual abuse or trauma, and I'm truly sorry that happened to you.  I know there are others who have, and you make a valid point: that for some people, they need more therapy to uncover potential other issues before transition, or if they even need to transition.

Apparently (or so I've been told) that there are groups on the internet pushing and promoting transition for children, pushing for hormone blockers.  I haven't seen that, but I haven't been part of trans forums in a while (too busy enjoying life!).  One parent supposedly was told, upon mentioning to the group that their 12-year-old came out as trans, to get them on hormone blockers ASAP!  And supposedly are pushing medical transition.  I don't know of these groups and if it's true, or if the parent wasn't ready to hear things about transition because they were in denial about what they'd been told, and were in shock.  IDK.

I know I won't change anyone's mind.  I was just curious, from those here, why you felt de-transitioning was right for you, to see if it lined up with what's being flapped around on the internet as TRUTH.


Jay

Quote from: sneakersjay on November 06, 2017, 06:56:23 PM
Apparently (or so I've been told) that there are groups on the internet pushing and promoting transition for children, pushing for hormone blockers.  I haven't seen that, but I haven't been part of trans forums in a while (too busy enjoying life!).  One parent supposedly was told, upon mentioning to the group that their 12-year-old came out as trans, to get them on hormone blockers ASAP! 

Blockers only pause puberty and are reversible, giving you time to change you mind. Taking blockers is not transitioning.

Don't let my post count fool you, I am relatively new here. If the parents are agreeable, blockers are giving to children entering puberty however hormones and surgery are normally delayed until they are much closer to the age of consent. In the case of FTMs it allows additional height and reduces the secondary sex characteristics and in the case of MTF, eliminates many of the features we have to deal with. Early blocker save a great deal of money and pain. Should the child decide to proceed with their normal puberty, they only need to discontinue the blocker and puberty will proceed normally. Sadly many parents deny there children this opportunity so the children will face a more difficult transition.

You are very welcome, sneakersjay (Jay). It is extremely important for people coming to the forum to realize there are other reasons they may need to express themself as another gender besides transsexuality. I am honored to have helped a half dozen or so folk see the effect childhood trauma had on their sense of gender and sexuality so they did not have to walk the same horrible journey as me.

@ kelly_aus
I didn't inform you that you have a serious mental illness; I described mine.
(A tip on forum etiquette: Noting a comment to be <sarcasm> does not make it less so).

Quote from: kelly_aus on November 06, 2017, 06:30:07 PM
I'm a transsexual...

Can you explain how you see yourself positively contributing to a thread about reasons for detransitioning or not transitioning?

The statistics are quotes are from a "Major Professional Body" (reference links supplied in original post).  That cultural bias exists is a given. In the absence of actual data, these US statistics are the best available, and the effects of said bias, if any, would be pure speculation. Please post the statistics to the contrary from another Major Professional Body when you have a chance.

Quote from: kelly_aus on November 06, 2017, 06:30:07 PM
I also find that claims such as these do no good for anyone, whilst they do represent your experience, I have serious doubts they represent the experiences of others.

If I knew as little about the subject as you, kelly_aus, I might think that too. It might be worth considering why you felt the need to step in to attempt to invalidate and trivialize my experience. I will not discuss this with you further.

My reasons are probably social... mostly...

While I am youngish (23), I am I guess, unfortunately 6ft and while I don't have a bulky build (it's actually quite embarrassing to be 6ft and have a very... slender frame and small feet as I learnt in my futile attempts at going to the gym to try and bulk out when I went though a 'screw it I was born male let's be super masculine' phase lol), it would still extremely suck being centre of attention since you know... 6ft female.

I do fear regret but I actually don't as much anymore since I have come to terms with why worry about something you'll never go though with, I did get to a point where I was saving money just in case I decided to go though with it and I had a nest egg to fall back on while going though the awkward stages of a transition but alas it won't happen.

To put it bluntly, it's easier to go though life as an unhappy but 'normal' person than I guess being different and 'not normal' in eyes of society, I would literally want to die if I got called transphobic slurs in the street, it does suck tho and I will probably regret this decision for the rest of my life and I do think back on those times 6-7 years ago when I would look at girls and think crap, wish that was me.....

I do remember one particular time when I think I was coming home from a friends house like 7 years ago and I was on a train and it was Friday night and there was a group of girls on the train and it just crushed me looking at them being well... female and looked at my reflection in the train window and I just saw this unhappy guy.

Only thing I am doing is growing my hair out and taking finasteride to stop male pattern baldness but... I wouldn't call it 'transition', just a guy who doesn't want to lose his hair I guess, I even have facial hair since I don't have a strong jaw line and I kind of grow out my beard to look more masculine, don't know why but I guess I got to make the best of the hand I was given.

I try to avoid this forum to be honest, I was active for a while but the constant updates on peoples transitions just made me think about it all the time.

I did email a gender clinic once in the UK and I got pretty cold vibe from it, it seemed rushed like "oh yes book two appointments, once to see a therapist and one to get HRT if approved", there doesn't seem to be any good therapists in the London area to just freaking talk to and if there are they're way out of my price range to be throwing money at, the NHS while is helpful in life threatening situations like getting hit by a car freakin' sucks at stuff trans related in terms of therapy, it's kind of like you need to decide before you book the appointment.

sorry for the rambling, I have been holding all these words in for months now and having a bad day and it has all come back to me which is why I am on this forum again I guess.

J2J.

I haven't de-transitioned (I haven't transitioned yet), but I definitely struggle with the "should I or shouldn't I?" of transitioning.

There's no denying who and what I am. It's almost a joke - my friends/co-workers would be talking about wanting to be with an attractive girl, and I was always looking and wanting to *be* her.

But transitioning... that's complicated. I'm 41, married with a kid. If I could push a magic button, I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I could go back 20 years and do it, I would. But doing it now seems overwhelming, mostly because it's not just me. My wife becomes part of a lesbian couple. My son becomes the kid with two moms. The effects on my career are unknown, but I could lose my job.

With that being said, I couldn't really hide it any more. I was accidentally outed to my parents, and that started things in motion - I came out to friends, I came out to family, I came out to Facebook, and I'm reaching a point where I'm not sure what's next.

Part of me wants to transition, but a big part of me is scared of what it'll do to my wife and son. So for now, in stuck in limbo.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Quote from: Phoenix1742 on November 21, 2017, 11:19:17 AM
I haven't de-transitioned (I haven't transitioned yet), but I definitely struggle with the "should I or shouldn't I?" of transitioning.

There's no denying who and what I am. It's almost a joke - my friends/co-workers would be talking about wanting to be with an attractive girl, and I was always looking and wanting to *be* her.

But transitioning... that's complicated. I'm 41, married with a kid. If I could push a magic button, I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I could go back 20 years and do it, I would. But doing it now seems overwhelming, mostly because it's not just me. My wife becomes part of a lesbian couple. My son becomes the kid with two moms. The effects on my career are unknown, but I could lose my job.

With that being said, I couldn't really hide it any more. I was accidentally outed to my parents, and that started things in motion - I came out to friends, I came out to family, I came out to Facebook, and I'm reaching a point where I'm not sure what's next.

Part of me wants to transition, but a big part of me is scared of what it'll do to my wife and son. So for now, in stuck in limbo.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Given the 41% attempted suicide rate, you're opening them up to being a widow and the kid with a dead dad if you do nothing. Food for thought.

Hugs, Devlyn

Hey hun,  it took me about 18 months to make that decision!
I was married with two small children, I'm no longer married as a result [emoji853]. I'm still in my childrens' lives,  and after some adjustment they both seem comfortable with things. Other families have stayed together,  it really depends on your partners view of things.
For me in the end, I was living part-time,  knew going back would end me,  and still needed to go further. Everyone is different,  and our comfort zone along the spectrum varies. If you can find where it is,  that might help you plot a way forward. X

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I've been on hrt for about 2.5 years and had ffs recently but have contemplated detransitioning for about about a year. Because of that, I never actually did a social transition.  That being said, I'm lucky enough to pass while still in male mode which has led to many awkward moments as I still speak, dress, and present as male.

I am starting the process of detransition slowly by lowering the time and dose of hrt so that I can live as a guy again.  There are some things I miss as a guy but many things I don't.  I don't deny that I'm trans and I have known most of my life.  I also expect the dysphoria to come back.  All that being said, I want some level of normalcy in my life.  I was strong, confident, and tough as a guy.  I don't feel that anymore.

During the last year, I've almost attempted suicide, developed BDD, and feel a bit agoraphobia causing me to stay in except when going to work or running errands.  I also have noticed that men have started looking at me more so than before.  I personally hate it as I am very introverted and hate being noticed.  It also makes me want to punch them in the face but well....can't do that.

Overall, I think the transition process is painful and there is a part of my male identity that is still clinging to the last remnants of masculinity.  I feel that at least if I detransition, I can go for a few more years before just giving up on life, lol.

Quote from: Virginia on November 06, 2017, 05:32:29 PM
I am the male depleted host/primary alter of a Multiple Personality/Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID/MPD) System resulting from childhood sexual and psychological trauma, and was misdiagnosed as transsexual because of my female alter's need to express herself as another gender. You can read more at https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,228889.msg2038352.html#msg2038352 .

There are valid reasons for caution in diagnosis. The most recent clinical statistics available show it is more likely that a person is suffering from DID than they are transsexual:
1% to 3% of the population have Dissociative Identity Disorder according to The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation. About the same as the number of people who are gay/bisexual.
http://www.isst-d.org/downloads/guidelines_revised2011.pdf

Only 0.6% were estimated to be transgender in the Williams Institute's landmark 2016 study.
http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/How-Many-Adults-Identify-as-Transgender-in-the-United-States.pdf

Complicating things even more, the psyche can completely block all memory and feelings of trauma from the conscious mind. In my case, it took THREE years of therapy to begin to recover my memories of my childhood sexual and psychological abuse.

Transsexuality shares many symptoms with DID and other trauma related disorders resulting from sexual abuse. Transsexuals also experience gender dypshoria, sexual confusion and the feeling of having been born in the wrong body for as long as they can remember. They were bullied and did not fit in with other children who were the same assigned at birth gender. Transsexuals often struggle with the idea they are transsexual, are survivors of childhood sexual and psychological abuse, and suffer from the very same psychological conditions DID uses to mask itself (depression, PTSD, bipolar disorder and schizophrenia). Transsexual people can even have Dissociative Identity Disorder.

Hi Virginia,

I wonder if it's statistically valid to extrapolate from these studies.  I believe the authors of both would probably say each has a lot of uncertainty.  I noticed DSM 5 quoted one small community study in the US and stated DID was 1.5% of the population.

I also wonder what percentage of DID are like you and have no idea they have it and need 3 years of therapy to retrieve trauma memories.  It would also be useful to know how many DID have cross gender symptoms.  Would this be a much smaller piece of the group?   Would this be a better group to compare with the estimated transgender population.

It should also be said that many transgender people are seriously in the closet, so any guesstimate is always going to be lower than actual until society is more accepting.

There are a lot of people who despise transgender people.  Arguments like yours, while interesting and worthy of more research, can be misused to cast transgender people as mentally ill.   Considering how long it's taken to get rid of that yoke, it shouldn't surprise you if people are a tad sensitive about this sort of thing.

Take care,
Paige