A big argument on the right (of politics) against ->-bleeped-<- is that "you'll never be the opposite gender because your chromosomes will always be XX/XY". Fair enough. But what if someone born a female takes testosterone, has all female-exclusive organs removed, and has a phalloplasty? Because of testosterone, this person now thinks like a man, sounds like a man, looks like a man, is as physically strong as a man, and grows as much hair as a man. Because of the phalloplasty, this person now also has male genitals. There is literally nothing left of this person's body that is female besides their chromosomes. However, this person is still a female because their chromosomes are female? Even after having all the male characteristics listed above? If gender/sex is only defined by chromosomes, it is certainly a flimsy characteristic, and it is about as big of a deal as eye color. Are these right-wing arguments simply uneducated or is there something I'm missing here?

"What good are chromosomes?"

I don't use mine for anything.    Welcome to Susan's Place!

Hugs, Devlyn

The people you are talking about are not deep nor critical thinkers.  They argue from ideology rather than from a place of seeking truth.  So everything you say is true and won't make a bit of difference to them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"What good are chromosomes?" they provide a scaffolding for DNA to be wrapped around in the nucleus of a cell.

In terms of the argument, we're sort of getting into a chicken-egg type of logic here. People say that XX or XY determine everything precisely because there is no medical method to change them. They're starting from the axiom that sex is immutable, and anybody who is gender divergent must just be really confused or crazy. Because they never feel a disconnect between their physical or mental concepts of gender they assume that is true of everyone. The example I like to think of is that someone who has 20/20 vision, and has only met people with 20/20 vision might have a hard time understanding the need for glasses. To them seeing is easy, it literally requires no effort. Not only that but if they look through a near-sighted person's glasses they would see things out of focus. They might then conclude that the near sighted person is just crazy, or wants sympathy etc.

Hi Dragon 

Welcome to Susan's Place    Glad to have you here, join on in the fun

Interesting question in that they neglected the fact that there are chromosomal variants such as XXY which is what I happen to have, it only affects one out of a thousand so lucky me I guess I'm one step away from being a full on hermaphrodite

Anyway, there are several variants of chromosomal make ups to be taken into consideration

Here are some links to the site rules and stuff that we offer to all new members to help them along

Site Terms of Service & Rules to Live By	Standard Terms & Definitions	Post Ranks (including when you can upload an avatar)
Reputation rules	Cautionary Note	Photo, avatars, & signature images policy

Hugs

V M

Welcome to Susan's Place. Androgen insensitivity syndrome is one of the biggest arguments against this. There are women who are XY but are so feminine that this condition is often discovered when they are unable to have a period. Here on the site, we understand that gender is located in the brain and the physical body isn't a true indication of your gender. The arguments against this are as the result of insufficient knowledge and a lack of desire to learn the truth. Looking for simple answers will often lead you down the wrong path.

If I can, as a geneticists, Chromasomal determination of sex is fairly rare in the animal kingdom as a whole. Even in primates (including us) there are both XX males, and XY females. Born with all the external, and sometimes even internal features of the sex opposite to what the chromosomal arrangement implies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_gonadal_dysgenesis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome
as two examples.
My daughter is also XXX (triploidy X) she is a normal girl, nothing amiss at all and developing exactly as you would expect an XX girl to develop. She is not some 'super' female as some of our paediatricians suggested when we discovered this during the pregnancy.
There is a lot of mis-informed people in the world. Some times you can educate them, some times it's just not worth the hassle. Lifes too short.
Hugs
Sarah xx

 It's a lot more complicated than that. People that point out the xx/Xy thing are facile.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Quote from: DragonTyrant on November 08, 2017, 05:46:38 PM
A big argument on the right (of politics) against ->-bleeped-<- is that "you'll never be the opposite gender because your chromosomes will always be XX/XY".

QuoteAre these right-wing arguments simply uneducated or is there something I'm missing here?

Many of those who disapprove of us but who also want to be taken for rational people (i.e. not religious zealots) have to accept the scientific argument that ->-bleeped-<- isn't a form of "deviance", since there's considerable science to support it as a medical/biological phenomenon. So they fall back on the argument that no matter what we do we can't "change reality" or the biological facts (which they have accepted in the most basic form: "XX=female XY=male"). And this is also why many of them will say "trans are mentally ill and need counseling" rather than transition. They clearly don't like what we do, but the more research comes out regarding transsexualism as something not chosen (like being gay) the 'rationals' have little option but to rail on about how our treatment can't change ingrained chromosomal characteristics. And when that fails, they move on to the high suicide rates, and how that surely means transition isn't effective.

It's a rather flaccid attempt to convince themselves and others that transition is futile and/or harmful.

They are absolutely correct that we can't change our chromosomes. But what follows on from that is obviously: "so what?" By their own rationale if something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like one, it might as well be one. And in societal terms, that's all we do, which is why their arguments can only end in agreeing to disagree about the efficacy of transition, or, "you're a degenerate! Reeee!"

Their arguments are weak. I've seen so many of them belly up on the subject because they either don't know their science or else are exposed for being emotional about things that generally do not concern or threaten them. 

Anyone can "prove" anything by changing or choosing definitions.  I can "prove" the existence of God by defining God as our sun and then proving the existence of the sun.  Many would prove otherwise by choosing a different definition. 

Definitions for men and women existed long before chromosomes were discovered.  Anyone who uses chromosomes to define men and women must therefore have changed older definitions in order to "prove" their point.  There is no logical requirement to use chromosomes as the deciding factor.

Here's a story about someone who thinks it's wrong to take hormones to contradict your "genetic" sex: He happens to be lactose intolerant, and one day when we were eating ice cream together I told him "If you think it's wrong that transgender people take hormones to be who they identify with, you shouldn't be taking Lactaid pills to eat something that your genes say you shouldn't."

The purpose of the Y chromosome is to trigger (by the presence of the SRY gene) the sexual differentiation of the fetal gonads into a penis and testes.  The Y chromosome itself has but 45 genes, whereas the X chromosome has some 25,000 genes.  In other words, the Y chromosome is of little genetic consequence shortly after conception.  The real determiner of one's sex is testosterone.  Without testosterone in ample supply in utero at key periods of fetal development, the fetus develops by default into a female.  Man is a special type of woman which explains why men have nipples.

Quote from: Clara Kay on November 09, 2017, 09:00:54 PM
The purpose of the Y chromosome is to trigger (by the presence of the SRY gene) the sexual differentiation of the fetal gonads into a penis and testes.  The Y chromosome itself has but 45 genes, whereas the X chromosome has some 25,000 genes.  In other words, the Y chromosome is of little genetic consequence shortly after conception.  The real determiner of one's sex is testosterone.  Without testosterone in ample supply in utero at key periods of fetal development, the fetus develops by default into a female.  Man is a special type of woman which explains why men have nipples.

Clara,

This is a very good explanation of why we are male or female. Observable sexual characteristics are caused by hormones and we do not all develop alike.

As stated above the Y chromosome has 1 gene of consequence. The SRY gene (sex reversal Y)
This gene does only one thing. It encodes production of a protein TDF. (Testes determining factor)
This protein triggers one section of the protogonads to form the first type of testes cell.
These cells produce another hormone AMH. (AntiMullerian Hormone)
This hormone does two things.
1: it causes the early female organ sections to be reabsorbed.
2: it causes the second type of testes cells to form.
This second type of testes cells now produces testosterone.
Testosterone makes the early male organs, Wolfarian ducts, to grow.
The testes cells also produce an enzyme (alpha5-reductase) that changes testosterone into its super form dihydrotestosterone (DHT).
DHT is needed to make the general folds form male outside genetalia.

From this point starting at 7 weeks a male child should develop.

Things that can happen:
A mutation of the SRY may not produce TDF. A fully fertile XY female grows
A mutation for the encoding of the TDF receptor and a fully fertile female grows.
A mutation to the gene encoding AMH, a female with some testicular cells on the ovarian cells develops.
A mutation on the AMH receptor gene, same.
A mutation on the Androgen Receptor encoding gene (there are known over 400 today). This receptor is required to activate the cells to testosterone or DHT. This is called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Depending on the gene encoding the receptor chemical structure a wide variation exists from mild to full insensitivity.
Complete Androgen Insenitivity (complete AIS) female body develops but internal testes and no female organs. Only shallow vagina and female phenotype.
Varying degrees have varying masculinization of the body.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of possibilities in mammals. Then you add in the effects of endocrine disrupters. These are medications which disrupt any prenatal development. In gender and sex related development primary are medications which block the androgen receptors from the presence of T and DHT.

Then there is just luck/chance. Timing of cell dimorphism can be off and allow partial development of the other sex organs and gonad cells.

Also taken into account is trisomy23 conditions. Such as XXY, XXX ect.

This is just things that can affect formation of a genetic male child. So far only addressing the body sexual organs. Brain dimorphism based on testosterone is well known to science.


The religious zealots just deny science and prefer to base their ideas on incorrect translations of an ancient religion. Oh and the correct translations are known to religious scholars which take all of their arguments away. They choose to believe the earth is flat.

Chromosomes express themselves before birth. In case of X and Y chromosomes, they determine sex. But once we are born, these chromosomes are pretty much useless. SO, if someone transitions and undergoes HRT and surgeries e.g. ftm, he becomes a male - a true and complete male. He might be infertile but that's irrelevant, cis-males can be infertile too.

It's the last definitional refuge of transphobia. Once upon a time it was having a penis (and in many ways it still is), and now the line has been pushed back to chromosomes. It's just ideology and weakness, because these people need a simple world to conform to their simple worldview.

Were it only the case. There's nothing special about chromosomes on a day-to-day basis because unless everyone you meet is karyotyping you, they're not really relevant!

Quote from: josie76 on November 10, 2017, 07:12:20 AM
As stated above the Y chromosome has 1 gene of consequence. The SRY gene (sex reversal Y)
This gene does only one thing. It encodes production of a protein TDF. (Testes determining factor)
This protein triggers one section of the protogonads to form the first type of testes cell.
These cells produce another hormone AMH. (AntiMullerian Hormone)
This hormone does two things.
1: it causes the early female organ sections to be reabsorbed.
2: it causes the second type of testes cells to form.
This second type of testes cells now produces testosterone.
Testosterone makes the early male organs, Wolfarian ducts, to grow.
The testes cells also produce an enzyme (alpha5-reductase) that changes testosterone into its super form dihydrotestosterone (DHT).
DHT is needed to make the general folds form male outside genetalia.

From this point starting at 7 weeks a male child should develop.

Things that can happen:
A mutation of the SRY may not produce TDF. A fully fertile XY female grows
A mutation for the encoding of the TDF receptor and a fully fertile female grows.
A mutation to the gene encoding AMH, a female with some testicular cells on the ovarian cells develops.
A mutation on the AMH receptor gene, same.
A mutation on the Androgen Receptor encoding gene (there are known over 400 today). This receptor is required to activate the cells to testosterone or DHT. This is called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. Depending on the gene encoding the receptor chemical structure a wide variation exists from mild to full insensitivity.
Complete Androgen Insenitivity (complete AIS) female body develops but internal testes and no female organs. Only shallow vagina and female phenotype.
Varying degrees have varying masculinization of the body.

This is just the tip of the iceberg of possibilities in mammals. Then you add in the effects of endocrine disrupters. These are medications which disrupt any prenatal development. In gender and sex related development primary are medications which block the androgen receptors from the presence of T and DHT.

Then there is just luck/chance. Timing of cell dimorphism can be off and allow partial development of the other sex organs and gonad cells.

Also taken into account is trisomy23 conditions. Such as XXY, XXX ect.

This is just things that can affect formation of a genetic male child. So far only addressing the body sexual organs. Brain dimorphism based on testosterone is well known to science.


The religious zealots just deny science and prefer to base their ideas on incorrect translations of an ancient religion. Oh and the correct translations are known to religious scholars which take all of their arguments away. They choose to believe the earth is flat.

I would put it that their science varies from 60 years old to 2000 years old in order to justify their cultural beliefs. Religion is also used as an appeal to authority fallacy. I mean, who can top the invisible man in the sky that doesn't exist?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro