Quote from: Allie24 on November 12, 2017, 10:39:40 PM
And the writing/directing staff of Transparent is made up entirely of trans people. The show's creator, Jill Soloway, is non-binary. And I don't think that the show pushes the "everyone is gay" trope at all (I've never even heard of such a thing). For starters, Josh Pfefferman and Shelly Pfefferman are both straight, so is Sarah's ex-husband Len and Rabbi Raquel and Shea and Davina. The only gay characters are Maura, Sarah and Ali.

The trope is mostly associated with anime, but a few western shows run into it. It isn't literally that everyone is gay, just that the statistical representation of LGBT romance among explicitly major characters is far higher than the real world (and as it does include the T, some would probably include Josh as well I suppose, even if of course he's not gay/bi for his particular romance, though I'm not particularly inclined to include it). The problem with the trope is that it is usually characters who by all rights should be pretty much entirely straight who have a same sex relationship(even if just a threesome or something, like AHS season 4), which in turn devalues the depiction of "legitimately" LGBT characters, and is often written in as nothing more than a shock for ratings grab. True Blood is probably the worst offender I can think of on this. Starts with a handful of excellent and well done gay characters and then just devolves into meaninglessness (Tara story arc, ugh... so bad...).

Quote from: Julia1996 on November 12, 2017, 11:12:54 AM
I think another problem is that some transwomen admire drag queens and emulate their flaming behavior, drag make up and speech patterns.

I feel mocked by drag.  I know that isn't the intent, but it's a hard feeling for me to shake.

Quote from: rmaddy on November 13, 2017, 12:49:27 AM
I feel mocked by drag.  I know that isn't the intent, but it's a hard feeling for me to shake.

I totally agree with you.  Going to a show has always made me uncomfortable.  Everytime I saw one, I'd think this is not who I am.  And then you still have the gd.  Being trans is sooo complicated.

Bari Jo

I always try to remember that Hollywood (just look at the mess they're in now) and the media (past messes as well) always try to influence the rest of society with their distorted idea of what the world is like based upon the aberration that is their lives.
      At first I had high hopes for "Transparent", partly because I really like the actors, but also because I AM a transparent of two grown boys.  It started out well, but no longer fits the promise of the title, IMHO. 
      I can tell you there have been plenty of movie comedy moments that we (my family and friends) have had together and I could/may write a book about my journey that could be filled with smiles AND tears and my wife is still here and not a lost love lesbian and my kids are wonderful caring not selfish men that I love dearly and accept me fully, not at all like "Transparent". 
     There is more than enough story to center on the trans trip, but Hollywood has to be as inclusive as possible to make the most money and has to bounce subject matter back and forth to cater to the short attention span of far too many people these days. 
     While not specifically a trans movie, more LBGT---, I was pleasantly surprised with Adam Sandler's "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry" (think I got that right).  The shower scene was so full of stereotypical male fears it had me rolling on the floor I was laughing so hard.  In the end I think it showed in a very sensitive way that what's really important about relationships is the caring, not the details.  Toni

Quote from: rmaddy on November 13, 2017, 12:49:27 AM
I feel mocked by drag.  I know that isn't the intent, but it's a hard feeling for me to shake.

I'm don't really feel that way. The point of it seems to be light-hearted parody of gender roles. I would actually love to be a drag king because the male stereotype fascinates me and would be fun to parody.

Quote from: Allie24 on November 13, 2017, 09:20:19 AM
I'm don't really feel that way. The point of it seems to be light-hearted parody of gender roles. I would actually love to be a drag king because the male stereotype fascinates me and would be fun to parody.

Trans woman drag king. Tiny heads would explode.

As per the drag discussion in general though (which I am going to bring back around to the original topic, just watch! )... Honestly, I have mixed feelings about drag. I definitely don't understand it, but then that's okay. I want to be/am a woman, not dress up and perform in a nightclub wearing over the top outfits and makeup. I want to live it day to day, not as entertainment. It has definitely done a bit of damage to me over the years, fueling the "man in a dress" fears since that look is 95% of the entertainment industry's approach to the broader trans topic. And while that damage is not okay, to any of us, I don't hold that against drag I hold that against improper representation in the media. Basically, while it's not my thing, I have no ill feelings about it.

Having said, let me loop back around to the main topic... I've always had a soft spot for To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Love Julie Newmar. Yes. That's the entire name of the movie if anyone is unfamiliar with it. Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo on a drag road trip basically. Comedy and romance ensues. The reason the movie meant a lot to me though was specifically John Leguizamo. Swayze and Snipes had the man in a dress thing going, but Leguizamo was cute. Not 100% passable, which is understandable considering he is a completely non-trans male actor, but definitely didn't have the man in a dress look (at least when he was in the more understated costumes later in the movie and not in full stage getup). I saw it at 13 in theaters, and it was the first time I can recall thinking that being a woman and actually looking like a woman was possible.

Quote from: Roll on November 13, 2017, 10:07:17 AM
Trans woman drag king. Tiny heads would explode.

As per the drag discussion in general though (which I am going to bring back around to the original topic, just watch! )... Honestly, I have mixed feelings about drag. I definitely don't understand it, but then that's okay. I want to be/am a woman, not dress up and perform in a nightclub wearing over the top outfits and makeup. I want to live it day to day, not as entertainment. It has definitely done a bit of damage to me over the years, fueling the "man in a dress" fears since that look is 95% of the entertainment industry's approach to the broader trans topic. And while that damage is not okay, to any of us, I don't hold that against drag I hold that against improper representation in the media. Basically, while it's not my thing, I have no ill feelings about it.

Having said, let me loop back around to the main topic... I've always had a soft spot for To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Love Julie Newmar. Yes. That's the entire name of the movie if anyone is unfamiliar with it. Patrick Swayze, Wesley Snipes, and John Leguizamo on a drag road trip basically. Comedy and romance ensues. The reason the movie meant a lot to me though was specifically John Leguizamo. Swayze and Snipes had the man in a dress thing going, but Leguizamo was cute. Not 100% passable, which is understandable considering he is a completely non-trans male actor, but definitely didn't have the man in a dress look (at least when he was in the more understated costumes later in the movie and not in full stage getup). I saw it at 13 in theaters, and it was the first time I can recall thinking that being a woman and actually looking like a woman was possible.

I don't know the other 2 but I know Wesley Snipes. He played a drag queen? OMG, I have to see that. In every movie he's done that I've seen he plays a really macho guy. I can't picture him as a drag queen. Lol

Quote from: Julia1996 on November 13, 2017, 10:16:33 AM
I don't know the other 2 but I know Wesley Snipes. He played a drag queen? OMG, I have to see that. In every movie he's done that I've seen he plays a really macho guy. I can't picture him as a drag queen. Lol

That was the big hook of the movie. Swayze was also the tough guy/male lead type for over a decade at that point, so it was casting against type. (Swayze is the guy who is in movies like Ghost, Road House, Dirty Dancing, Point Break, and tons of others, he's a legend. Died in like 2009 from cancer.) Leguizamo was a relative unknown, a standup comedian just really making it in movies for a few years (he was in Carlito's Way and played Luigi in the Mario Bros. movie just prior to To Wong Foo, since then he's best known as Sid the Sloth in Ice Age ).

I want to see a movie/TV show with a trans actor playing a cis character!

Quote from: Allie24 on November 13, 2017, 01:04:30 PM
I want to see a movie/TV show with a trans actor playing a cis character!

I know you mean openly trans, but it's definitely happened more than once "secretly"(Caroline Cossey for sure, though her notable role was still a bit part). I bet that there are a number of actors and actresses that are full stealth no one thinks twice about. Statistically there almost has to be.

I understand that drag arose in response to societal shaming of homosexuality.  People marginalized by condemnation as sissies and effeminate performed drag as a raised middle finger against the idea that human beings are easily boxed and labeled. 

I also understand that drag queens have been "out" far longer than most transgender people and that many or most of them embrace the sort of social progressivism that benefits if not celebrates transgender folk.  Mine is a criticism of the eleventh hour.  Nevertheless, here it is:

We now find ourselves discussing how transgender people are portrayed and by whom they are portrayed in popular culture.  We absorb the warnings from entertainment insiders (e.g. Jen Richards, Janet Mock) who remind us that the portrayal of transwomen by cis males (aka transface) reinforces the societal perception that trans women are really just men in a costume.  Jeff Tambour (Transparent) deflected early criticism that he was a partner in this phenomenon by acknowledging that he understood the potential harm, that he was alert to the responsibility he had been offered, and that he was strongly committed to the advancement of transgender rights and opportunities, including those of his transgender castmates, writers and consultants. 

I won't tell you if Transparent is better theater than Her Story or any of the other offerings tastefully portraying the struggle of transfolk.  I do think that transface does a disservice to the trans community.  We are constantly lampooned as phonies and posers--men in dresses.  When the larger, undiscerning audience sees this literally casted into their entertainment, it damages our cause. 

Even if not originally intended to do so, how does drag performance harm us any less?

Every Queen I've ever spoken to has expressed nothing but love and support for TG people.

Wow everyone, I didn't know I would get such a response. I love that some of you have seen great depictions. I guess I am not watching the right movies or shows. I think what makes me somewhat upset is how they depict us as being secretly trying to deceive men. The character finds out she has something different in her pants and then he is completely turned off, because we are trying to deceive them. I understand some may feel this way when we tell them we are trans but, really you don't have to portray this in movies. I know like all women we are making strides in everything now. Great discussion and definitely has gone in some directions I didn't think of.

Quote from: rmaddy on November 13, 2017, 07:19:25 PM
I understand that drag arose in response to societal shaming of homosexuality.  People marginalized by condemnation as sissies and effeminate performed drag as a raised middle finger against the idea that human beings are easily boxed and labeled. 

I also understand that drag queens have been "out" far longer than most transgender people and that many or most of them embrace the sort of social progressivism that benefits if not celebrates transgender folk.  Mine is a criticism of the eleventh hour.  Nevertheless, here it is:

We now find ourselves discussing how transgender people are portrayed and by whom they are portrayed in popular culture.  We absorb the warnings from entertainment insiders (e.g. Jen Richards, Janet Mock) who remind us that the portrayal of transwomen by cis males (aka transface) reinforces the societal perception that trans women are really just men in a costume.  Jeff Tambour (Transparent) deflected early criticism that he was a partner in this phenomenon by acknowledging that he understood the potential harm, that he was alert to the responsibility he had been offered, and that he was strongly committed to the advancement of transgender rights and opportunities, including those of his transgender castmates, writers and consultants. 

I won't tell you if Transparent is better theater than Her Story or any of the other offerings tastefully portraying the struggle of transfolk.  I do think that transface does a disservice to the trans community.  We are constantly lampooned as phonies and posers--men in dresses.  When the larger, undiscerning audience sees this literally casted into their entertainment, it damages our cause. 

Even if not originally intended to do so, how does drag performance harm us any less?

I don't think that there is such a thing as "transface." It doesn't matter who it is that's playing a trans character, it's the character themself, at least it is to me. And let's say, hypothetically, that a trans person is cast in the role of a cis character. Is that "cisface"?

I used to agree with Richards and Mock on this topic, but then I realized that it doesn't really make a difference whether or not a trans woman is played by a trans woman or a cis man, because the people who think of us as "men in dresses" will see it that way no matter what. I think that if we really want to get the message across that we're actually factually female, then we'd cast cis actresses in those roles, because symbolic representation...

And the wonderful thing about drag is that it allows some of us to shed the oh-so-seriousness of our identities (and it's not even just our identities, it's everyone's, cis people love their genders just as much as we do, let's not forget that).

Quote from: Allie24 on November 13, 2017, 10:19:29 PM
I don't think that there is such a thing as "transface." It doesn't matter who it is that's playing a trans character, it's the character themself, at least it is to me. And let's say, hypothetically, that a trans person is cast in the role of a cis character. Is that "cisface"?

I was so close to making a joke about cisface to your previous comment about trans playing cis.

Quote
I think that if we really want to get the message across that we're actually factually female, then we'd cast cis actresses in those roles, because symbolic representation...

I can't imagine that It's Always Sunny gets too much respect among the more PC crowd on this topic, but you know, it actually has a really great trans character that is played by two absolutely gorgeous cis women. The amazing Morena Baccarin in the pilot, and Brittany Daniel in the main series. On top of that, she is one of only a handful of genuinely sane and good intention-ed characters in the entire series who has some amazing dialogue trying to explain how her getting married to a man is not gay marriage.

Quote from: Roll on November 13, 2017, 10:40:05 PM


I can't imagine that It's Always Sunny gets too much respect among the more PC crowd on this topic, but you know, it actually has a really great trans character that is played by two absolutely gorgeous cis women.

Surely you see that the portrayal of a trans woman by a cis woman isn't going to further the perception that trans women are really men.  It's a lost opportunity to cast a trans woman, but it isn't transface. 

Quote from: rmaddy on November 13, 2017, 11:04:25 PM
Surely you see that the portrayal of a trans woman by a cis woman isn't going to further the perception that trans women are really men.  It's a lost opportunity to cast a trans woman, but it isn't transface.

(I'm super bored right now, so here is an overly long semi-reply that only tangentially addresses this. )

Well, there's two ways to look at that I feel...
1) There is no difference between cis and trans women, therefore there should be no issue casting a cis woman as a trans woman or a trans woman as a cis woman. Life experiences may be different certainly, but then we don't always try to cast the role of soldiers with actual veterans. Acting is almost by definition one big lie about who someone is.

2) There is a difference between cis and trans women, and casting a cis woman in a role of a trans woman is "transface", but then casting a trans woman in the role of a cis woman is "cisface". For a comparison, let's forget the actual usage of blackface historically and look at more recent examples of casting someone in a role intended to be another race/ethnicity. Ie: A character in a book who is meant to be black being played by a white actor in the movie adaptation, or vice versa. When we start going down this path, we run into a serious issue of double standard. Because, while a cis woman playing a trans character or a white actor playing a black character are considered offensive, the opposite is virtually never considered in the same light.

Personally, I prefer scenario #1 both for my own peace of mind and as simply a film lover. I've always held that unless something, such as race, is an absolutely integral part of the character that can't be replicated by someone of a different group, at the end of the day the best actor should get the role. This is even more the case for cis vs trans characters, in which there should not be considered to be a major physical difference between the two that stands out like skin color does.

To offer an example, let's go all the way back to the Ben Affleck Daredevil movie. At the time of its release, there was a huge uproar in a combination of racist and "stick to the source material no matter what" fanboy circles that were furious that the villain, always white in the comics, was played by the actor Michael Clark Duncan, who if you are unfamiliar with was black. The thing is... Duncan nailed the role. Being white was never a definitive aspect of the character in the slightest. Being insanely huge and muscular to the point it just looks like fat (sumo style) was. And Duncan had that, in addition to being an amazing actor. He was the only highlight of an otherwise atrocious movie, and even the naysayers mostly relented on that.

Likewise, if you have a trans character and the best person for the role is a cis woman (or even a cis man, which absolutely works for a character at the beginning of transition without being insulting, a la Transparent), then they should get the role. That's just how acting is supposed to work.

Now having said that, there definitely should be more trans actors taken seriously. There are several quite talented out there. But I don't believe they should ever, EVER, get a role solely because they are trans, unless it is just something extra that allows them to bring something special to a character and puts their baseline acting skills over the top. (Ie: You have 10 actresses of equivalent skill, 9 cis and 1 trans, auditioning for the role of a trans woman. In that case, yeah, the actually being trans should probably be given some weight just as a pure extra.) Unfortunately, in general the entertainment industry is the single biggest pile of hypocrites on the planet, and for all their political endorsements and progressive causes they supposedly champion, they are the worst when it comes to practicing what they preach (see: the past two weeks). But that is an entirely separate issue I won't get into here.

I'd be curious to know how many transgender actor/actresses there really are. I have a suspicion it would be far less than the statistical equivalent for the general population, because avoiding attention is a big deal for many people. It's too easy to fear being the next Caroline Coussey. But I suspect this is already changing and will continue to change with new generations, with the ever growing number of sub 30 actors and models who come out as trans.

Different for Girls had a very good portrayal. SOA's Venus was superb, especially the love scene with Tig

One of the best things a out Transparent isthat it isn't propoganda.
Maura isn't a flawless hero. Her wife suffers too etc..
It's human and empathetic

I would rather see a cis woman portray a trans woman than a cis male. It's not accurate for a cis guy to portray a trans woman usually . Cis people think a cis man in the role of a transwoman is accurate but it's not. A transwoman will have had hrt which makes all the difference. And some have had ffs. 2 examples of what I'm talking about are,

1. The Christine Jorgenson story. It's an old movie but I still wanted to watch it. Christine was passable and pretty. In the movie she is portrayed by a cis male. He was neither pretty or passable as Christine. He looked like a guy dressed as a woman. I think that was a huge disservice to Christine Jorgenson. I realize that back then there were no trans actors. But even a cis female or even a more feminine looking cis male in that role would have been more accurate.

2. Soldiers girl. Calpernia isn't especially pretty in my opinion but she's attractive and passable. In this movie she was portrayed by a cis male. That was a disservice to her. The actor who played her wasn't passable as a woman. He looked like a guy with make-up and female clothes.

We all kind of look like guys in female clothes when we begin transition. Then there is hrt, hair removal, voice training or vocal surgery,  and painful surgical procedures. To cast a cis male in the role of a transwoman is insulting! It's like saying "we don't care what you've been through. You're still just a guy in drag and that's how we are going to portray you". That's totally messed up!

Movies like those just reinforce the idea that transwomen are just guys who cut off their Dick and put on a dress. It's hard to believe but there are people who think that's what SRS is. I'm not saying that cis guys can't portray transwomen. But they need to find a better match than they have in the past. A cis male portrayed Lilly in Danish girl. He was a great choice for that role. He looked female and did a very good job. And that movie was more accurate about what transwomen go through.

I know movies aren't real life but don't ever underestimate the power of movies. Lots of people think stuff they see in movies is the truth. It's sad but they do. Thankfully the entertainment industry is slowly changing how transwomen are portrayed.