Ever since the thread where Nero was wondering if we took our gender issues seriously, I have been working on a theory about our sense of humor. I was discussing it with Jaimey and we sort of came to a conclusion about androgyne humor.

We don't use humor to protect ourselves from others, we do it to protect us from ourselves.

That may seem like a trivial difference, but an important one. Putting some thought into this I came up with what I think may be a reasonable explanation. Some of it may be just a condensed version of things said here before but from a slightly different perspective. Either way it helps me understand it better.

Many of us have noted our lack of emotions and ability to express them; it is because of this that we need another outlet. Like when a child is unable to express itself, it may revert to anger, or crying, we revert to humor. There have been very few times in my life where I did not use humor in order to keep from going outside that comfort level of emotion (all ended in disaster). I think anytime we get into a stressful or emotional spot we just immediately head for humor. We use it so much that we revert to it at a moments notice for anything, even just to lighten a conversation and keep it from getting too serious in the first place.

It is not that we do not take anything serious; it is just that it is difficult for us to stay serious for long. We seem to dislike anything more than mild emotions, we prefer to stay neutral (okay, happy we can handle). If that balance tips, we run to our safe place. It has been said we are more innocent and child like; there is probably more truth to that than any of us care to admit. Telling us to stop is like spanking a child for being confused. The child is doing what it is doing because it has no alternatives, the same applies to us.

Of course this is all just theory but it certainly seems to ring true for some of us here. Even if it is not completely accurate it may at least help someone understand our thought process a bit.


Comments?

Thanks. You're helping me to understand a bit. Often when conversing with androgynee friends, I make the mistake of assuming they're like everybody else - that they 'get' and feel the same things as me. I honestly don't get the child-like innocence, the aversion to conflict of any kind - I tend to think you're all putting me on. I really am trying to understand.

Quote from: sd on March 02, 2008, 03:15:09 PM
We don't use humor to protect ourselves from others, we do it to protect us from ourselves.

That may seem like a trivial difference, but an important one.

SD, I think your theory is absolutely right on. Not at all a trivial distinction. For me though, I'd say it's some of both, protecting myself from others and also myself.

QuoteWe seem to dislike anything more than mild emotions, we prefer to stay neutral (okay, happy we can handle). If that balance tips, we run to our safe place. It has been said we are more innocent and child like; there is probably more truth to that than any of us care to admit.

Also all too true! I dislike conflict and do my best to avoid it.

Z

Quote from: Nero on March 02, 2008, 04:27:44 PM
Thanks. You're helping me to understand a bit. Often when conversing with androgynee friends, I make the mistake of assuming they're like everybody else - that they 'get' and feel the same things as me. I honestly don't get the child-like innocence, the aversion to conflict of any kind - I tend to think you're all putting me on. I really am trying to understand.

I was hoping you of all people would read it.
Not trying to pick on you, but you seemed to be having trouble grasping it.

And no, it is not a show, we really don't "get" a lot of things.
I am sure we can elaborate if you want, you would probably be surprised.

Posted on: March 02, 2008, 05:30:47 PM

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Quote from: Zythyra on March 02, 2008, 04:44:23 PM

SD, I think your theory is absolutely right on. Not at all a trivial distinction. For me though, I'd say it's some of both, protecting myself from others and also myself.

Z

Thanks.
We do use it for both, but I think it is primarily a defense against our own emotions, regardless if they are caused by others or life in general.

Hi,

   I think your idea is correct and that you did very well in getting it across clearly.

   I'm wondering about the type of childhood's some of you had.  Mine was rotten in terms of being the cause of my PTSD.  I just would like to confirm that this -

QuoteI think anytime we get into a stressful or emotional spot we just immediately head for humor. We use it so much that we revert to it at a moments notice for anything, even just to lighten a conversation and keep it from getting too serious in the first place.

It is not that we do not take anything serious; it is just that it is difficult for us to stay serious for long. We seem to dislike anything more than mild emotions, we prefer to stay neutral (okay, happy we can handle). If that balance tips, we run to our safe place.

is inherent to our gender identities as opposed to being caused by bad childhoods.

      If the rest of you had nice families, then I can stop wondering if my sense of identity is a reaction to my early years.



Rebis

Thanks Rebis.

As for your question, I would not say I had a bad childhood at all.
I had some rough times at school, which I hated, but family and home life was very good. I would say I had a pretty good childhood overall.

I cannot speak for everyone but I knew I was different at a very young age, I am positive it is not upbringing. Some of my earliest memories are of gender issues. One as early as 3 and another big one around 5 or 6(?), both were instances of being shown the differences between the sexes and knowing something was not right. I grew up with two female cousins and a male brother (often in the same house even), we all experienced the same things and yet all of them turned out normal as far as I can tell. All are following the traditional binary path of life yet I walk a very different path from them. If you were to talk to some of my childhood friends or ask my family they would likely tell you I was a bit different as well.

You are who you are Rebis.

Quote from: Rebis on March 02, 2008, 08:32:28 PM
      If the rest of you had nice families, then I can stop wondering if my sense of identity is a reaction to my early years.



Rebis

My family was OK, somewhat dysfunctional, but aren't they all? I spent plenty of time in therapy trying to figure out if who I am was a response to this or that event, but no, I think I'm hard wired this way. There was a point in therapy where I dredged up some pretty weird repressed memories, and thought they might be the cause of my gender issues, however I never figured out if they actually even happened...

Z

both of your posts helped a lot.

I always knew I was different too.   In fact, I believe it is my nature that kept me relatively okay.  I always felt slightly removed from the bad events and somehow protected.

Quote from: Rebis on March 02, 2008, 08:32:28 PM
Hi,

   I think your idea is correct and that you did very well in getting it across clearly.

   I'm wondering about the type of childhood's some of you had.  Mine was rotten in terms of being the cause of my PTSD.  I just would like to confirm that this -

QuoteI think anytime we get into a stressful or emotional spot we just immediately head for humor. We use it so much that we revert to it at a moments notice for anything, even just to lighten a conversation and keep it from getting too serious in the first place.

It is not that we do not take anything serious; it is just that it is difficult for us to stay serious for long. We seem to dislike anything more than mild emotions, we prefer to stay neutral (okay, happy we can handle). If that balance tips, we run to our safe place.

is inherent to our gender identities as opposed to being caused by bad childhoods.

      If the rest of you had nice families, then I can stop wondering if my sense of identity is a reaction to my early years.

Rebis

I think the bad parts of my childhood might have been exaggerated because I'm androgyne.  You know how we've talked about androgynes being more sensitive?  If I hadn't been so sensitive to the really subtle things, I think I would have been a happier child.  But because of my sensitivity, particularly to tone of voice and things like that, I had a disconnect from my family, and well, pretty much everything, by the time I was 7 or 8. 

SD, you put something into words that I haven't been able to!  I can't handle strong emotions!  From myself or other people.  I don't know what to do when I'm confronted by strong emotion.  Thank you!  I get frustrated when I can't find the right words.  Since I don't know what to do, I crack a joke or make some lukewarm comment.  I'm totally at a loss.  You know what the scariest sentence in the world is?  "We need to talk."  Because that means something emotional is going to happenand it usually isn't good and I'll be caught off guard.

Quote from: Nero on March 02, 2008, 04:27:44 PM
Thanks. You're helping me to understand a bit. Often when conversing with androgynee friends, I make the mistake of assuming they're like everybody else - that they 'get' and feel the same things as me. I honestly don't get the child-like innocence, the aversion to conflict of any kind - I tend to think you're all putting me on. I really am trying to understand.

It's the same for us, but in reverse.  Personally, I'm always confused because I can't understand things the way every one else seems to.  And it's not just gender.  Things like race...I used to watch comedy central a lot and it took me years to figure out that "stereotypical" race jokes are supposed to be funny.  I didn't get what was funny about them.  White people can't dance or black people like fried chicken or Asians can't drive...  Why is that funny?  Talk about awkward!  Everyone else around you is laughing, but you don't get the joke!  ...I get the redneck jokes because I've met plenty of rednecks, but that's it.  To me they are all such obvious blanket judgments that they can't possibly be true and I don't get it.  Like what does race have to do with food choices or the ability to drive?  That's like making fun of tall people...like they had a choice in the matter?  Redneck jokes are funny because they are about a lifestyle that people choose.  You can choose not to be redneck even if your parents are.    *sigh*  Things like that.  I don't understand why some women play head games instead of just saying what they want.  I don't understand why some men think that women can't be in positions of power because of pms.    I've spent so long being confused that it would be weird to feel otherwise. 

As for the childlike thing...that's the only way I can describe it.  I feel like something in us didn't mature the way it did in binary people.  I was relatively "normal" until we started approaching puberty...when the girls started noticing boys and being all "girly" and vice versa, I was left behind.  For example, I never wanted to carry a purse...all the other little girls did, but I didn't and still don't really.  I have a bag that I use like a purse, but believe me, it's just a bag.  It doesn't match my shoes and I don't have one for every season.  Basically, I couldn't figure out where they were getting their information.  I thought I'd missed a lesson in class or something where someone came in and explained all that stuff.  I still don't understand it.  People at work talk about relationships and sex and stuff and I just don't understand what they talk about. 

Actually, this is something I told sd...it's a good example.  I have a male friend who is gay (so it's not like he's harassing me or anything) and we are very close.  But when he comes to visit (he lives in Oregon), he constantly asks about my sex life and tells me that I need to get a man and get laid and stuff like that (he even brought up masturbation once...I was mortified).  I know he doesn't mean anything by it, so I'm not offended or anything, but it makes me uncomfortable because I know that sex means something totally different to him than it does to me and I don't know how to act like I understand.  That's probably my biggest point of awkwardness around binaries.  I don't know how to act like I know what they are talking about and I don't want to look stupid.

Anyhoo, back to the topic at hand...as SD said, I think we use humor as a shield.  It's the only way we know how to cope.    See?  I'm laughing right now!


...(I'm editing)


Ooo!  I just thought of something else!  Humor is a way to feel comfortable.  Take this forum for example.  Let's say that someone who is just starting to realize they are different comes to our forum.  If we were all serious and stern/uptight (I can't get the right word...it means those things, but not quite right...), they might be intimidated.  But we are all very laid back and funny.  We are very inclusive people.  We don't want to intimidate others or make them feel uncomfortable or excluded.  I think we have a strong desire or need or something like that to make people feel comfortable around us.  Perhaps it's because we've felt excluded for a long time or maybe it's just hardwired in us.  I think that we can't stand the thought of hurting others because we know what it's like to be hurt.  That might be another reason that we use humor. 

Quote from: Jaimey on March 02, 2008, 11:30:34 PM
I think the bad parts of my childhood might have been exaggerated because I'm androgyne.  You know how we've talked about androgynes being more sensitive?  If I hadn't been so sensitive to the really subtle things, I think I would have been a happier child.  But because of my sensitivity, particularly to tone of voice and things like that, I had a disconnect from my family, and well, pretty much everything, by the time I was 7 or 8. 

While I think it may have hurt you more, it also may have protected you a bit. Hard to say which way it would go in that situation. Had you been normal, you may not have been able to cope with it at all and done something harmful to yourself.

QuoteSD, you put something into words that I haven't been able to!  I can't handle strong emotions!  From myself or other people.  I don't know what to do when I'm confronted by strong emotion.  Thank you! 

You're welcome.

Great Zot!

Jaimey just knocked about a half dozen right out of the park!

Quote from: Rebis on March 02, 2008, 10:44:23 PM
I always knew I was different too.   In fact, I believe it is my nature that kept me relatively okay.  I always felt slightly removed from the bad events and somehow protected.

In some ways I think being androgyne protected me too from a crappy childhood. My dad is severly manic depressive and would often get violent at the snap of a finger. I was good at hiding inside, feeling apart from everything. My siblings would panic and wail but I was a sea of calm. But this also made me rather dysfunctional when it came to school and other things. I was away in my world, distant and just trying to get by. Even though I had this distance I still felt a lot. It hurt, it still does.

I totally agree with Jaimey about the puberty thing and being left behind, not knowing how to act like I was growing up. How do people know what to do? Why are they suddenly interested in dressing different? I could see them joining these little social groups, becomming a part of something trainee adult. How did they do it and why? I remember when I was 12 there was this girl that was good looking and a friend of mine knew that I found her attractive. He asked me if it was ok if he asked her out and I said "sure, I would rather skateboard anyway" - he was totally dumbfounded by this.

Quote from: NickSister on March 03, 2008, 01:44:53 PM
I totally agree with Jaimey about the puberty thing and being left behind, not knowing how to act like I was growing up. How do people know what to do?

Now that you mention it, yes. Sort of.

There's certainly some of that in me. I've never really got to the point of wondering how people know what to do, though. Rather, for me it's all a game. Gender, career, whatever -- it's all something I've played over the years. Not in the sense a manipulating psycopath does, but much in the same way a child does.

Relationships with people are real; roles in the society are, well, roles. Fun, but on some level still just something I made up, and in emotional terms the difference between fact and fiction is not always important.

  Nfr

Quote from: Jaimey on March 02, 2008, 11:30:34 PM
As for the childlike thing...that's the only way I can describe it.  I feel like something in us didn't mature the way it did in binary people.  I was relatively "normal" until we started approaching puberty...when the girls started noticing boys and being all "girly" and vice versa, I was left behind.  For example, I never wanted to carry a purse...all the other little girls did, but I didn't and still don't really.  I have a bag that I use like a purse, but believe me, it's just a bag.  It doesn't match my shoes and I don't have one for every season.  Basically, I couldn't figure out where they were getting their information.  I thought I'd missed a lesson in class or something where someone came in and explained all that stuff.  I still don't understand it.  People at work talk about relationships and sex and stuff and I just don't understand what they talk about. 

I think you nailed it.

That brings up a good question, was it by choice?
Personally, I doubt it, because I could not wait to hit puberty, get out of school and on with life. I think I was looking forward to it more than my friends.


I wonder...
Puberty is your brain accepting its gender.
Maybe they knew which path because their brains had gender, giving them a path to follow and grow on.
We had no gender, and therefore no path beyond puberty. You cannot grow into an adult blank. If that makes sense.

Interesting theory. I am not sure it applies to me. I actually am quite an emotional creature. My friends always say I am worse than a girl. I feel that I have the full emotional spectrum of BOTH male and female. I do experience emotion, and I express it to a select few people. I have a very hard time controlling anger annoyance, and frustration, but I try VERY hard to keep it in check.

I think I use humor sometimes to mask my true emotions when I don't feel like expressing them. But on top of that, I also just really like humor.

I don't feel like I was left behind with puberty, or anything like that. I get the impression that lots of folks here feel like they are 'neither' or 'something else' whereas I tend to feel like 'both'.

My childhood was good actually. I grew up on a farm. My father was an alcoholic, but quit drinking and became a volunteer fire fighter and a model citizen and a wonderful father. My father figure in my life was very strong, supportive, and an all around wonderful guy. My mother figure was strong, supportive, and an all around wonderful gal. For my EARLY childhood I didn't have much of a father figure (when my dad was still drinking), and that's when I learned a lot of 'girl' things (like how to put on mascara).

Humor as a defense is very normal. Using a defense against yourself is very normal too. I have a feeling that being andro makes a lot of the other defenses not work so well, and also makes us need more defenses against our confused selves. But I don't think it applies to everyone.

Found what I was looking for...

From wikipedia:

QuoteAdolescent psychology is associated with notable changes in mood sometimes known as Mood swings. Cognitive, emotional and attitudinal changes which are characteristic of adolescence, often take place during this period, and this can be a cause of conflict on one hand and positive personality development on the other.

We seem to have either gotten stuck here or missed this part in our development. Maybe our brains did not know which route to take (male or female) and just stopped.


Edit: added quotes and source

Quote

Quote from: sd on March 03, 2008, 02:04:33 AM
While I think it may have hurt you more, it also may have protected you a bit. Hard to say which way it would go in that situation. Had you been normal, you may not have been able to cope with it at all and done something harmful to yourself.

Quote from: NickSister on March 03, 2008, 01:44:53 PM
In some ways I think being androgyne protected me too from a crappy childhood. My dad is severly manic depressive and would often get violent at the snap of a finger. I was good at hiding inside, feeling apart from everything. My siblings would panic and wail but I was a sea of calm.

Hmm.  You know, I hadn't thought of that.  I don't panic.  I would run away and hide if my dad yelled at me when I was small, but as I got older I got almost defiant towards fear.  If I do feel fear, it's usually after the fact.  That's interesting.  You might be right.   

Quote
How did they do it and why? I remember when I was 12 there was this girl that was good looking and a friend of mine knew that I found her attractive. He asked me if it was ok if he asked her out and I said "sure, I would rather skateboard anyway" - he was totally dumbfounded by this.

That was me (except I can't skateboard to save my life...)!

As usual I have read a thread and agreed with so many things I find it hard to believe it to be coincidence.

I actually had a pleasant childhood until the age of eleven, but from the age of eight or so I felt 'wrong' or 'empty'.

People always found me funny, but I first realised that I could choose to make people laugh was at the age of 15. I find that as a person who just doesn't understand so much about people, that humour is a way to connect anyway. it often backfires but to make a joke for me is to say that i care and that my thouhts are there. when someone makes a joke over something i have said seriously i feel touched.

so much i read here that made me agree. And Jaimey you touched on so much. I think that when a brain gets stuck somewhere, it develops somewhere else.

I vote that we punish Jaimey.    >

Quote from: Rebis on March 08, 2008, 12:09:49 AM

I vote that we punish Jaimey.    >

Please do.  (what?  is that the normal response?  jaimey's a weirdo...)