Idk if this is the right place to leave this, but the question is mainly geared towards trans guys.

I feel more recently now then ever, I am way more comfortable now that I am becoming passable
and finally blending in like a normal guy.

I' m even starting to get along with all the guys at work, and even more male customers are having open conversations with me.
It's even to the point where they'll walk right past my manager (who is female) and talk to me.
I asked her how she feels about that and she told me it's probably because guys gravitate towards each other
or because we work in a tech store they feel more comfortable asking a young guy.

In other words she didn't seem bothered by it.

So story time
I work with another trans guy who is obviously very feminine, he doesn't care to pass at all, (he's told me this and that's fine. To each their own) I use to be a feminine trans guy so I totally get it, we go to trans social groups and we hang out sometimes, but he and his SO who is non binary and I been friends with the SO before I knew him.

They decided to tell me I'm slowly becoming truscum and a "unconscious misogynist".
Yes, their words.

They also think I'm being pressured to be more masculine because I want to pass.

I brushed it off.

Last night me and him were closing the store.
One last customer came in and was asking about a laptop.

The customer was an older gent and if you ever worked with 80 something year olds,
It's not easy to answer their TECH questions in very detailed techy language we would normally use.

So i jumped in and explained it enough for the gentleman to understand better.
So the gent started talking to me, and he (let's call him cody) started to cut me off blatantly mid sentence.
The gent ignored him and kept talking to me.

After all that he shook my hand and said thanks young man and turned to cody and said you too "young lady".

It was that when cody told me I'm becoming too toxic for him and I changed once i started T.
(Yeah, I become more sociable and he isn't)

Next morning when we went to our group cody decided to do a piece on toxic masculinity in the trans community and brought the situation up.

I didn't take it personal. I let it go.
NOW the leader of this group wants to do a day once a week where transmen come in wearing dresses and I refused to take part.

I told this person I have nothing against it, but It would bother my dysphoria and she told me
I have to break out of my comfort zone and this "idea" that femininity is disgusting.

I not once said this or even implied.

So long story short, I am no longer part of this group and Cody told me that I'm letting my "male ego" get in the way of our friendship and I told him he's letting his feelings get in the way of it.

I don't care to reply to him anymore.


I'm insulted that out of all the people in the world, a trans person basically told me to ignore my dysphoria and dress like a girl which Is what I've done for years before coming out.

What type of crap is that? ?

Honestly, it sounds to me as if Cody's dysphoria is taking over his life, and he's using you as a scapegoat for him "not being masculine." 

Not all transmen are comfortable wearing dresses, (I certainly am not!) and the idea of "everyone MUST wear a dress or ELSE!" is plain silly to me.  Isn't being forced to wear female clothes what has caused so many of us dysphoria in the first place?

Wanting to be masculine does NOT mean you hate women.  Often its quite the opposite for many.  Having been forced to be female, many transmen have a larger understanding of how difficult Life can be for both cis and trans women.

Maybe its a good thing that this coworker has made you think about your relationship with him.  He seem to me to have major dysphoria issues that he need to work on.  Maybe its a good thing that you distance yourself from him until he get his own issues worked out more.

Hopefully you can find another group you can join.  We all could use some kind of support at times. 

Either way, good luck!

Ryuichi

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 28, 2017, 11:15:43 AM

NOW the leader of this group wants to do a day once a week where transmen come in wearing dresses and I refused to take part.

I told this person I have nothing against it, but It would bother my dysphoria and she told me
I have to break out of my comfort zone and this "idea" that femininity is disgusting.

That's seriously messed up.  Imposing conditions and/or experimentation on someone else's life or transition is completely toxic.  Run like hell.

Yes some men feel pressured by society to be masculine but for others it's simply how they feel most comfortable. Dressing fem for the sake of it to make the point men can be fem; is pointless. If it doesn't make a guy feel comfortable then it's hypocrisy and dispels the point you were trying to make. You can't make a person feel comfortable expressing their gender a certain way.

jesus, reading this made me mad.  this kind of thing, which i've seen a lot elsewhere in online communities and heard secondhand from friends who know other trans people, is exactly why i don't bother seeking any kind of "community" beyond occasional posts in this forum.  i know people like that are out there and i am not ready or willing to deal with them.  sorry you had to do so; it's got to be really hurtful to find a group/people you think you share something with and can get support from, only to have them treat you just as badly as others on the opposite side of the fence would.

The moronic idea of toxic masculinity comes straight out of an ideological agenda (feminism) and is a political buzzword used against men. This has nothing to do with being transsexual or not. Your friend could have been a cis-woman and that person would have spit out the same garbage to you or any other masculine man trans or not.
If the transpeople in your group all agree to that idiocy and support things like that I would start to ask myself if that group was ideologically/politically motivated and whether that's the type of people you want to surround yourself with. I sure wouldn't want that and in the group for transsexual men that I am visiting we don't have any brainwashed followers of any such radical cancerous ideology in our lines as far as I know of and people are different with different stories and ways and respect their differences from what I've seen so far.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 28, 2017, 11:15:43 AM
What type of crap is that? ?

That looks like the blatantly man-hating side of current day feminist attitudes to me.

Trans men are by definition somewhat problematic to them. Someone drawn to masculinity and masculine expression? Those things they've spent the last 3 or 4 decades painting as the root of all evil? Perish the thought.

Since your friend told you you had changed since starting T it sounds like he is maybe jealous you pass and he doesn't.  Wanting transguys to wear a dress to the support group is the stupidest, most insane thing I've ever heard. That would serve no purpose except to trigger severe GD. Why not hand out razorblades and cyanide pills with the dresses? In my opinion you're better off without the friend and the group.

there is a lot of shaming within the trans community which is ridiculous. you'll have people say about the masculine thing. some people will say you need this and that to be trans. it's all pretty ridiculous imo. i wouldn't be part of a group that said that trans men need to wear dresses either. that is trigger inducing like hell for a lot of people. i get where some masculinity can be "toxic" where you're degrading women, etc to be seen as "one of the guys" and what ever, and it's all just very problematic in that sense but to be seen as a guy and act as a guy in a way that isn't problematic isn't something that should be shamed. there's also tons of dudes who pass without being super masculine. crazy, really.

God that's messed up, I'm sorry you're having to deal with that situation. The reason most trans guys don't parade around in dresses wearing make up is because of dysphoria, forcing you to partake in that can be so damaging to a trans guys mental health. Do they not realise that? I'm not surprised you quit.

It honestly sounds like he's jealous that you now pass because of T and he doesn't, he's taking out his frustrations on you. It's so laughable the way people around you are acting. Trans people want to transition for the most part to go into society as the gender they identify with, that's what you're doing. When I started T I also became more social and able to talk to people and assert myself because people were seeing me for who I am and were treating me as such, I think that's a generic change that happens to most trans people as we're usually quite subdued and introverted before transition.

They seem like the toxic, damaging ones telling you what you should be able to do and how you should be acting. Why can't they just let you get on with your life and stop dictating how all trans people should act.

Oh man, I've wanted to make a rant post about this for so long but I never felt like getting cremated.

Like Meatwagon, things like this are the reason why I'm not involved in any sort of 'community' that's trans-geared.
I've always had masculine endeavors and preferences and nothing changed post-T: lifting weights, woodworking, welding, building stuff, etc., are all huge hobbies of mine. I dress like I did pre-T but the clothes fit 10000x better. Apart from my unfortunate past, there's nothing female/feminine about me because that's just who I am.

Those things are apparently not favorable and not to be proudly proclaimed because doing so perpetuates 'toxic masculinity' (a phrase so overused its rapidly losing its intended poignancy), something I always thought had to do more with misogyny.

There's almost this pressure to either retain or acquire this femme edge as a transman and, if you opt out, you're too dull for the rainbow. It's bull****. 
If I'd been in the same situation as you in that group, there's no way in hell I'd have stuck around either. Furthermore, what's putting on a dress really going to accomplish? Femininity isn't disgusting in the slightest--I have nothing but admiration and respect for it--but it's not who a lot of us are and it's a ridiculous requirement to remain in a group that's supposed to be helpful.

To be clear, I have absolutely no qualms with the way anyone identifies or feels (NB, femme, genderfluid, etc.) but it very much seems that it's not reciprocated for binary guys in a lot of circumstances.

Unfortunately too many people equate what I consider a form of hyper masculinity with all forms of masculine expression. There is a legitimate argument that can be made against self destructive behavior by some men that ends up being harmful to society at large, ie., the idea that the only way to truly be a MAN is to be violent, misogynistic, without feelings, etc. A machismo if you will. However this is not at all the same as just being a masculine human being in general. Society tends to over correct it self and the pendulum can swing too far in the opposite direction. I'm not one of these guys out here beating my chest and shaking my fist in the air about THE FEMINISTS though. I find both sides equally annoying tbh.  <Edited - profanity removed by moderator>

As a counselor my question for you is, is the group you attend a social group or a therapy group? I ask because the group leader requesting that you all wear dresses to step out of your comfort zone is not the correct way to manage group dynamics. I would find another group. Your co-worker is struggling with...something. My guess is you are further along in your journey than he in terms of solidifying your identity. If anything I would simply feel sorry for him. It has no reflection on you whatsoever.

I remember when the gay marriage debate really took hold. There was a ground swell of mainly gay men who were not on board because they felt the community was becoming to mainstream. That part of gay identity is bucking the norm and challenging socially accepted forms of relationship and sex roles.

I feel like the trans community does the same thing in a way, not about marriage though. Those of us that are NB or genderqueer or agender what have you, have a visceral reaction to trans folks that do fall squarely on a side of the gender expression binary. Especially the masculine side. I think they feel we are conforming too much for their liking.

Quote from: TransAm on December 28, 2017, 07:40:01 PM
what's putting on a dress really going to accomplish?

It would be signalling their virtues for them in return for being part of the collective. Not for the OP's benefit, it's for the person who was bothering the OP, and their agenda. If you don't signal the right virtues with them, you're obviously against them, etc. people like this usually see in black and white, and they've already decided men are a problem unless they become more like women.

There's no argument to be had with them. They don't respect masculinity or see any use in it whatsoever unless it's their version or idea of it, which is the totally feminized "defanged" masculinity... and you don't get much more subjugated than a dude agreeing to wearing a dress because he wants the heckling to stop. And they don't listen to men's concerns in general, I would bet if the OP said no, the response would invariably be "you're part of the cis patriarchal problem". If you somehow support men or something male, they have a tendency to assume this is automatically "taking something away from women". Or perhaps threatening the NB crowd, or something like that. Can imagine the uproar if someone female or female-identified was told feminine looks and clothes were toxic, lol.

Pretty much the only way to treat these types is to walk away and leave them to their nonsense, if that nonsense is going to dictate every encounter you have with them. It's a shame the OP has to deal with this from a support network. Clearly whoever this person(s) are they don't understand or don't care about what male identified transmen feel or have to deal with. A lot of this type appear to carry a mission to destroy the concept of biological sex and gender altogether, and you've become just another patch of the battleground for them.

Quote from: CMD042414 on December 28, 2017, 07:52:52 PM
I remember when the gay marriage debate really took hold. There was a ground swell of mainly gay men who were not on board because they felt the community was becoming to mainstream. That part of gay identity is bucking the norm and challenging socially accepted forms of relationship and sex roles.

I feel like the trans commdoes the same thing in a way, not about marriage though. Those of us that are NB or genderqueer or agender what have you, have a visceral reaction to trans folks that do fall squarely on a side of the gender expression binary. Especially the masculine side. I think they feel we are confirming too much for their liking.

To answer your first posts question it was a social group, that started out with like 3 trans guys and including me and 2 transwomen. It went from that, to being predominantly NB, and GQ.
That's imo when the group started going downhill.

I have nothing against NB or GQ, but it's like the trans guys who i used to get along with are trying to accommodate them by being meek and timid and expressing how awful masculinity is, and while I agree some of it is, it's not all bad.
I just saw pictures they posted of them wearing skirts and it's hard to believe because 5 months prior they would've never done this. I don't  have a problem with it, I can't stress that enough.

But the irony of it all is real lol

Some of femininity is toxic as well. But we never hear anything about that.

Sounds to me like they're just not accommodating all types of people in the group. And if you asked them why they are not happy to accommodate men who do not want to put on tutus and whatnot, I wonder what their answer would be. That masculine men deserve to sit in the back and be quiet, I imagine.

I'd put it to them making people wear dresses might be a grand idea - provided for an equal amount of time everyone has to wear male cut suits. Or even better, how about dispense with the stupidity and each person express how they are comfortable expressing....

Quote from: Viktor on December 28, 2017, 08:22:09 PM

Pretty much the only way to treat these types is to walk away and leave them to their nonsense, if that nonsense is going to dictate every encounter you have with them. It's a shame the OP has to deal with this from a support network. Clearly whoever this person(s) are they don't understand or don't care about what male identified transmen feel or have to deal with. A lot of this type appear to carry a mission to destroy the concept of biological sex and gender altogether, and you've become just another patch of the battleground for them.

Honestly, losing the group or Cody isn't a issue to me, my problem is forcing transmen basically back in the closet to accommodate their personal hatred of men.

It's even more insulting when I do not think of women or femininity as less than or weak

I am the first person to stand up against stuff like that.
I hate using this word, but it's problematic to put masculine trans men in dresses.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on December 28, 2017, 09:04:36 PM

To answer your first posts question it was a social group, that started out with like 3 trans guys and including me and 2 transwomen. It went from that, to being predominantly NB, and GQ.
That's imo when the group started going downhill.

I have nothing against NB or GQ, but it's like the trans guys who i used to get along with are trying to accommodate them by being meek and timid and expressing how awful masculinity is, and while I agree some of it is, it's not all bad.
I just saw pictures they posted of them wearing skirts and it's hard to believe because 5 months prior they would've never done this. I don't  have a problem with it, I can't stress that enough.

But the irony of it all is real lol

Here in Philadelphia we host the annual Trans Health Conference. I stopped going because it feels like the NB and GQ crowd began to outgrow the trans crowd. This is probably why social groups are having the same problem.

Actually, I'm not using the acronym GQ for gender queer anymore as it is reserved for a masculine publication which I have a subscription to lol.

This sort of shaming is so wierd to me.

whereas youre being shamed for being too masculine or binary along the masculine side, trans women seem to have to endure the opposite shaming of not being feminine ENOUGH.

Why cant people just mind their own business
Its such a double standard and unfortunate that even among our own communities we have to conform to certain ideals.

You'd think as trans people we would understand other peoples needs to exist within the spectrum and not have to fully be masc or femme.

And specially not to shame others for being too masc or not femme enough.

Quote from: CMD042414 on December 28, 2017, 11:51:04 PM
Here in Philadelphia we host the annual Trans Health Conference. I stopped going because it feels like the NB and GQ crowd began to outgrow the trans crowd. This is probably why social groups are having the same problem.

Actually, I'm not using the acronym GQ for gender queer anymore as it is reserved for a masculine publication which I have a subscription to lol.

What's funny to me, is that a lot of the I guess popular NB's present masculine. (Ash Hardell, Milo Stewart, Jake Edwards)