This reminds me of Miss J on America's Next Top Model.  I have no idea what pronouns to use.

I used to wear my hair long (it's short now, an ongoing discussion between my wife and I )
Anyway, I've had people address me as ma'am, or when my wife and I were together as 'ladies', even when I was dressed androgenously. I always enjoyed these moments!
Once someone addressed me as ma'am, then quickly corrected herself. We had a good laugh about it - I think she was more embarrased than I was (especially since I was dressed in track pants and a shirt, no breast forms )

I think most people are well meaning. There are a few ->-bleeped-<-s. I just try to ignore them. I'm lucky that I've never had anyone hassle me continuously.

Hugs,
Vanessa

Happened once -- hair not that long, but down, wintertime, wearing an overcoat (which I guess could be considered androgynous?), at the supermarket. The bagger asked "Paper or plastic, ma'am?" I heard "man", not "ma'am" -- I wasn't even trying. So I said "whichever, it doesn't matter," in a less than completely feminine voice (not trying, see)...

He was so embarassed and apologetic.

Oh, I just melted!

Quote from: Nichole on March 02, 2008, 07:46:02 PM

The DQs I knew years ago firmly identified as male and only wore drag for shows and benefits. I never knew one who went shopping en femme.

Nichole

Same here, Nichole.  I knew a couple of drag queens years ago. For them, it was a twice-monthly hoot, and they had a great time, apparently.  I doubt if you would see them out and about doing regular public activities unless necessary.  Other than that, they were just regular people, who identified as men.....and they were overtly gay.
Somehow, this part of the TG community is not my cup of tea.  Maybe it is because BEING a woman from a transitioned man was such a long, arduous process for me, and not a night out on the town.  Is there something I missed?  Am I just insensitive to this group of people??

jag (just another girl)
Bev



Bev

Quote from: Beverly on March 03, 2008, 06:37:53 PM

Quote from: Nichole on March 02, 2008, 07:46:02 PM

The DQs I knew years ago firmly identified as male and only wore drag for shows and benefits. I never knew one who went shopping en femme.

Nichole

Same here, Nichole.  I knew a couple of drag queens years ago. For them, it was a twice-monthly hoot, and they had a great time, apparently.  I doubt if you would see them out and about doing regular public activities unless necessary.  Other than that, they were just regular people, who identified as men.....and they were overtly gay.
Somehow, this part of the TG community is not my cup of tea.  Maybe it is because BEING a woman from a transitioned man was such a long, arduous process for me, and not a night out on the town.  Is there something I missed?  Am I just insensitive to this group of people??

jag (just another girl)
Bev

The ones I hung out with back then were never just 'overtly gay,' Bev. They were damn-well flamingly gay  They just loved the attention in our 'Mountain Empire' up in E. TN and SW VA!!

Actually, they were definitely a hoot and enjoyed themselves a lot. Never was under the impression 'I was like them' but they were pretty decent friends. As were the two who were on hrt, birth-control pills back in the day, but all of them had begun as 'show-girls.'

Maybe you are 'insensitive to this group' I surely wouldn't know that. You seem pretty sensitive to everyone around here, luv!!  The fact you can consider that you may be speaks volumes about you for me. Most folk, trans or not, just accept their own 'blind-spots' and prejudices without ever even thinking about whether or not they are problematic. I'd say you are ahead of the curve.

Hugs,

Nichole

And yeah, Renate, I know that was off-topic. Sorry, I thought Bev might appreciate it though.

Quote from: Nichole on March 03, 2008, 07:22:18 PM

And yeah, Renate, I know that was off-topic. Sorry, I thought Bev might appreciate it though.

And appreciate it I did

*Hugz*

The really cool thing about this kind of communication, is that it often becomes a stream of consciousness conversation between a group of women, with acceptable cross-talk which has a little bit for everyone, interwoven in and around the original topic. Very female in construction, very appealing.  Susan's version of "The View".


Now, back on subject 


Bev

"Flaming gay" is easy.

If the ______ between your legs, matches the _______ between your lips.  You're there.


The DQs I knew years ago firmly identified as male and only wore drag for shows and benefits. I never knew one who went shopping en femme.

I know several, including a few who life 90% full time.  Of couse, I do get out of the house now and again.

before we encur Renate's rath again... i suggest we stick to topic... which is 'regardless of why the person is dressed as female, they are seen as a dude in a dress... what will johnny public say/do?
R >

Quote from: Renate on March 02, 2008, 07:42:00 AM
To restate some points to maintain coherency:

• This topic is not about passing, please don't post anything in that vein.
• This topic has nothing to do with your feelings.
• This topic is operating on the presumption of well meaning and polite people.
• The MIAD is trying to present modestly as female.
• The Public Person has identified the MIAD as a genetic male for whatever reason.
• The Public Person has noticed that the MIAD is dressed as a female for whatever reason.

The topic is how does the Public Person address the MIAD and what is their presumed logic.

Renate.

The Public Person could always cheat and avoid sir or ma'am, perhaps using a question as a form of address.

Smiling at the person and asking "May I help you?" would avoid assigning a gender and perhaps getting the gender wrong if you are a sales person.

The key would be making eye contact.  "Would you prefer paper or plastic?" is a genderless enough version of "Paper or plastic, ma'am/sir" and works as being polite.

Of course, if you have a habit of using sir or ma'am, you may find it hard to break the habit.

In Arabic and Hebrew, the words for "you" are gendered masculine and feminine. If you only say "you" to someone, you still have to make a decision about their gender. The verbs are gendered too, so you can't use a sentence with a second-person verb conjugation without judging someone's gender. Be glad we use English!

French is one of the most gendered language, words, article, qualificatives, pronouns, etc, they're all gendered.

OK... Arabic and Hebrew have all that as well.... and in addition, you can't say tu or vous or any associated verbs without specifying gender as well. This was in reply to Rowan's suggestion to just say "you" when you're unsure about someone's gender. It's a lot easier to evade the question in both English and French.

Wife asks husband who he's going out with tonight. In English he can just say "With a friend" and sound innocent. In Italian he'd have to specify con una amica if the friend is female--aha, busted!

same with russian... uber genderd...
R >

In french, you'd be busted if you write it, not if you say it,
since the "e" in amie is silent. But, there are plenty of
other endings that are not silent.

Even if the pronoun is tu, there's a good chance the article or qualificative will out you because it will be feminine, unless your lucky and they are silent and you don't write it.

or like most guys you just say 'im going out with a mate for a drink'
Ie, off to see the mistress
Just because he is off to see a woman doesnt mean he has to be honest
this is guys were talking about...

R >

Hmmmm. I started full time 8 years ago and to tell the truth I can't remember being addressed as anything else then mam. And to be most assured  I am certainly not the prettiest girl in town. Wish I was. But then my being a small person lends more credibility to appearing to be female. But then I have seen a good many androgynous looking folks in the environs of where I live. Well then on the other hand it's a good  possibility they *were* androgynous folks. I am getting the feeling I already drifted away from the topic at hand. Well that is about all I can add to this discussion without straying off topic even more. Not enough wiggle room in order to expound and formulate a reasonable scenario or assessment on this gentleman in a dress.

Cindy

I think the main part of 'man in a dress' syndrome, is Transwomen not knowing what to wear... to suit thier bodies, and age... the double take of 'ew what is she wearing? oshi he....' is most likely a high contributory factor...
R >

Hmm. When I was completely ignorant of transgender issues, I may have addressed the person as 'Sir'. A gay friend of mine who was dating a transgendered woman corrected me and explained that when a male=bodied person is 'en femme' whether they be trans or a drag queen, they generally prefer female pronouns. So when I see someone en femme I address them as 'ma'am', 'she' and 'her'.

Nero, that's great advice.  We have a right in this world to choose a lot of things.  While there are always consequences, we choose what and how to believe, whether or not to carry a baby to full term, whether or not to smoke, how much alcohol we drink, what we want to do for a living, where in the world we want to live, and on and on it goes ad nauseum.  Everyone in this age seems to be cool with the fact that we choose these things.  So why, then, do people get their bowels in an uproar when we choose which gender we wish to present as?  I mean, really...think about it.  If you see someone who looks like a man in a dress, is there any more blatant sign that this person wishes to be addressed by female language?  It doesn't take a Phi Beta Kappa to know that if a person has enough guts to go out like that, she wishes to be called "she."  I look back at my earliest pics and I cringe.  I am glad I am doing better now, at least I think I am.  Everybody starts somewhere.  The CDs I know, while we have a lot of differences, have had the same feelings about going out en femme when starting out as I did.  My first time out I almost needed a fire extinguisher for my panties.  In another way, it was wonderful, but it takes guts to make that choice.  And if a person is up to that challenge, I think they at least deserve to be called by the language appropriate to the gender in which they present.

[/rant]

Kristi

Quote from: Rachael on March 05, 2008, 07:44:47 AM
I think the main part of 'man in a dress' syndrome, is Transwomen not knowing what to wear... to suit thier bodies, and age... the double take of 'ew what is she wearing? oshi he....' is most likely a high contributory factor...

That's what I think too. Poor taste in attire, never having developed a trustworthy style sense, not having grown up with it. Girlfriends are essential for criticizing a woman's looks and helping her to find what works for her. If one want to present high feminine, one must be impeccable or don't even try. That's why I dress conservatively, especially at my age. Works well for me, but it took me a couple years of practice, trial and error, until I got a girlfriend who worked with me to correctly develop my style sense.