Am I guilty of wanting to be and pursuing to be a woman even if I did not grow up seeing myself as female on the inside?      Even though I am relatively early on hormones, I still have these feelings of unworthiness and that cis-women would think of me as a creep and wierdo if they knew that I am not like other transgender people.   I didn't see myself as female for much of my life, and did see myself as male, even when I was crossdressing.  20 years ago, at 16 years old, I read the diaries of a transwoman named Melanie Anne Philips, and I was mesmerized, I read most of them and I felt like I wanted to transition.  Years later, I read about Roberta Close and Caroline Cossey and I was stunned to know that it was possible to have a cis-woman looking body.  That really increased my desire to transition, and I started reading up a lot on transitioning, knowing a whole lot about the transition process at one point (this was 2001.)  However, it still felt like a fantasy that I couldn't have ruling my life.  I also felt like regular transgender people who felt like the opposite gender had the "legitimacy" and validity to be able to transition, and not me.  I did envy other trans people.   

I was participating in message boards and going to college, I was attracted to a few girls and had male friends.  However, when I went to sleep I would fantasize about being a woman.  Back in 2003, I even at first started fantasizing about being intimate with someone else in a sexually intimate way.  That led to a strong desire to have sex as a woman, which then led to the desire to have a vagina.  Ever since then, I only wished to have sex as a woman with a vagina. 

This led to 2007, where one thing led to another and I discovered I had an inner female persona, and natural female mannerisms and body language.  I tried to be objective and tested this, so it wasn't wishful thinking.  So naturally this made me more curious to know how far the rabbit hole goes in terms of my gender, but I felt frustrated that my male persona was holding me back.  I then felt like I really wanted to transition, in order to be able to access the rest of my femininity and femaleness, and possibly to fulfill some of my very feminine fantasies.

But this all hit a brick wall when my mom found out (late 2007) and I told her I was transgender, she guilted me and I felt like I would lose my parents if I transitioned.  That led to inner turmoil that I've had to dealt with almost every day since.  My life has been in limbo since, since I didn't feel like I could pursue any career because I didn't want to build up a career (especially in business) just for it to crash because I wanted to run away from my life, and I couldn't really have a relationship with a woman especially after one time I did date and I was envious about her body and her clothes, as well as an inability to perform (since I had no desire to have sex except in a female way.)  I also stopped having male friends since I was becoming unsatisfied even back in 2007 with having male friends, since I couldn't be close and intimate and I felt more comfortable talking with trans-friends.  Since then, I don't really feel comfortable anymore making friends with guys in "male mode", to the point where it feels uncomfortable just talking with a guy after awhile.  I have even avoided posting on facebook and advertising myself looking male on the internet because I don't feel comfortable with developing an online identity that looks male.  Yes, I've really skipped much of the social media generation because of my "identity crisis."  I wish to have female friends but I want to be with them as a female, I don't want them to see me as male.  It even crushes me to feel like nobody cares to comfort me, even I was a victim of crime, because "you don't do that with males."  I just can't get over that thing in the male gender that males are expected to not even have feelings or be emotional, that males have to be stunted in emotional expression and development compared to females.
I
Everytime I deny being transfemale, It ends up with me feeling empty and my life is worthless.  It is just heartbreaking for me to remember the strong feminine feelings that I had 10 years ago, that have faded and become a lot more inaccessible now.  There were even many periods of time during the past 10 years where I did feel fully female (or fully not male), but ending when I felt like I had to continue to act male.  At times, I do feel like I'm female on the inside (a female that is wearing a "male persona" coat), other times I think of myself as male and just a female wannabe.  Nowadays, I do feel like I'm trapped inside a male body, and that I wish to have a female life.

BUT I didn't feel female when I was growing up, so is all of this just moot because I don't have license to be female, because only real transwomen felt female since 4 or 5 years old?

Quote from: Katelyn on January 12, 2018, 04:41:38 AMI am not like other transgender people.   
...
I don't have license to be female, because only real transwomen felt female since 4 or 5 years old?

No, no, no!!  I wish we could kill this myth and drive a silver stake through its heart.

Most trans women do not feel female since they were young children.  Possibly most of the ones who make the tabloid newspapers and TV talk shows do, but they are by no means representative.  At least half of us figure it out painfully in adulthood, often well into middle age.  The most common age to transition is 35-50.  I didn't figure it out until I was over 60.

You are totally like me and at least 50% of the members here.  Yes, in hindsight, there were signs for me going back to as early as 7 years of age that make sense now.  They didn't make sense at the time, and I never felt that I "was" female, only that I wanted to be.

You have no reason to feel guilty.  You are one of us.  Here's a hug, sister: ((((HUG))))

Sweetie, no one in this world can think worse of us than we do ourselves. *big hug*

You're no less real than anyone else. It doesn't matter how you arrived at the way you feel as much as the fact that you did. You don't have to justify it to anyone, or somehow prove you're "worthy" of being yourself. The only person who needs to be sure of who you are... is you.

No one is really "like other transgender people". We're all individuals, with our own path in life, our own feelings, our own hopes, dreams and wants. We're linked by a lot of commonalities, sure, but when it comes down to it, we're all unique.

Katelyn, what matters is the now, hon. The now and the tomorrow. Who you are now, what you want, and where you want to be. Holding on to feelings in the past is like trying to climb a hill with a heavy weight tied around your ankle. Sometimes you just have to let it go and focus on what's in front of you. I know this is hard to do. Most people carry all sorts of emotional baggage and it's very hard to let go of that.

Just look at some of the things you've written.

Quote from: Katelyn on January 12, 2018, 04:41:38 AMHowever, when I went to sleep I would fantasize about being a woman.  Back in 2003, I even at first started fantasizing about being intimate with someone else in a sexually intimate way.  That led to a strong desire to have sex as a woman, which then led to the desire to have a vagina.  Ever since then, I only wished to have sex as a woman with a vagina.

QuoteThis led to 2007, where one thing led to another and I discovered I had an inner female persona, and natural female mannerisms and body language.

QuoteMy life has been in limbo since, since I didn't feel like I could pursue any career because I didn't want to build up a career (especially in business) just for it to crash because I wanted to run away from my life, and I couldn't really have a relationship with a woman especially after one time I did date and I was envious about her body and her clothes, as well as an inability to perform (since I had no desire to have sex except in a female way.)

QuoteI have even avoided posting on facebook and advertising myself looking male on the internet because I don't feel comfortable with developing an online identity that looks male.

QuoteI wish to have female friends but I want to be with them as a female, I don't want them to see me as male.

QuoteEverytime I deny being transfemale, It ends up with me feeling empty and my life is worthless.

How you feel now is more important than how you felt as a kid, Katelyn. At that time in our lives we have so much other stuff going on that half the time we don't know how we feel, or are supposed to feel, about anything. Just look at how you're feeling now, and how you want to be. Then focus on that, sweetie. The only person who has to tell you that you deserve to be you, is you. No one else has that right. There is no license, Katelyn. There's only you.

Go be you, okay? *extra big hug*

Quote from: Katelyn on January 12, 2018, 04:41:38 AM

BUT I didn't feel female when I was growing up, so is all of this just moot because I don't have license to be female, because only real transwomen felt female since 4 or 5 years old?

Katelyn appreciate your seemingly confused yet thoughtful post, hope it leads to more discussion. For the record I did not think I was a girl at '4 or 5 years old'. As a very attractive guy of 14-15yrs old it wasn't until I started dating girls that I realized how much I identified with them emotionally. Rather than wanting to have sex like most expected I found myself wanting, almost vampire like, to draw out and adopt thier feminine "life force" as my own instead.

And it wasn't until later, high school & beyond, that I started to crossdress and identify as a girl due to the attentions of a close gay friend. But even at that point the only thing I knew for sure is I wasn't "gay" so give yourself a break!!

Unlike prevalent theory here I feel GID and sexual orientation are as one, inextricably intertwined, have always been very "binary" and "socially conservative" but of course that's just me!!!

 No


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Quote from: KathyLauren on January 12, 2018, 06:48:49 AM
No, no, no!!  I wish we could kill this myth and drive a silver stake through its heart!

You are totally like me and at least 50% of the members here.  Yes, in hindsight, there were signs for me going back to as early as 7 years of age that make sense now.  They didn't make sense at the time, and I never felt that I "was" female, only that I wanted to be.

Went back a little further than 7 for me and at times when I was dressed up I did feel that I was or at least should have been a girl, but generally it was that I wanted to be female.  It took me 50 years at age 54 to realize that the reason that I always wanted to be female was because I am one. 

You do see those at age 4 or 5 or however young,  that do somehow know it already.  So I why wasn't I like that?  Did that mean I couldn't be trans?  I think this was part of the reason it took me so long to figure it out.

So nothing to feel guilty about and my guess is most of us older transitioners had similar thoughts at one time. 

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Not guilty

As far as being a real woman, I don't know, people get hung up on technicalities all of the time.  I see people arguing over what a real christian is all of the time, or what a real republican is, the list goes on and on.  It gets pretty funny, the argument I used to hear when I was younger was how I was not *a real man* because real men, did such and such.  Now it is, you are not a real woman, because such and such reason.  I don't even think people know what is or isn't real in this world, it is just mostly opinion supported by faith. 

It doesn't matter if you have had these feelings since you were five, or not.  What matters, is that you are feeling them now, those feelings are no less genuine than anyone else who experiences them.  As far as I see it, transsexual is just a word that I use to express those feelings, it is a label I can apply to myself to let others know how I feel.  It is a lot easier than saying "I feel like I should be a woman, but I have a body of a man"

Quote from: Katelyn on January 12, 2018, 04:41:38 AM
Am I guilty of wanting to be and pursuing to be a woman even if I did not grow up seeing myself as female on the inside?      Even though I am relatively early on hormones, I still have these feelings of unworthiness and that cis-women would think of me as a creep and wierdo if they knew that I am not like other transgender people.   I didn't see myself as female for much of my life, and did see myself as male, even when I was crossdressing.  20 years ago, at 16 years old, I read the diaries of a transwoman named Melanie Anne Philips, and I was mesmerized, I read most of them and I felt like I wanted to transition.  Years later, I read about Roberta Close and Caroline Cossey and I was stunned to know that it was possible to have a cis-woman looking body.  That really increased my desire to transition, and I started reading up a lot on transitioning, knowing a whole lot about the transition process at one point (this was 2001.)  However, it still felt like a fantasy that I couldn't have ruling my life.  I also felt like regular transgender people who felt like the opposite gender had the "legitimacy" and validity to be able to transition, and not me.  I did envy other trans people.   

I was participating in message boards and going to college, I was attracted to a few girls and had male friends.  However, when I went to sleep I would fantasize about being a woman.  Back in 2003, I even at first started fantasizing about being intimate with someone else in a sexually intimate way.  That led to a strong desire to have sex as a woman, which then led to the desire to have a vagina.  Ever since then, I only wished to have sex as a woman with a vagina. 

This led to 2007, where one thing led to another and I discovered I had an inner female persona, and natural female mannerisms and body language.  I tried to be objective and tested this, so it wasn't wishful thinking.  So naturally this made me more curious to know how far the rabbit hole goes in terms of my gender, but I felt frustrated that my male persona was holding me back.  I then felt like I really wanted to transition, in order to be able to access the rest of my femininity and femaleness, and possibly to fulfill some of my very feminine fantasies.

But this all hit a brick wall when my mom found out (late 2007) and I told her I was transgender, she guilted me and I felt like I would lose my parents if I transitioned.  That led to inner turmoil that I've had to dealt with almost every day since.  My life has been in limbo since, since I didn't feel like I could pursue any career because I didn't want to build up a career (especially in business) just for it to crash because I wanted to run away from my life, and I couldn't really have a relationship with a woman especially after one time I did date and I was envious about her body and her clothes, as well as an inability to perform (since I had no desire to have sex except in a female way.)  I also stopped having male friends since I was becoming unsatisfied even back in 2007 with having male friends, since I couldn't be close and intimate and I felt more comfortable talking with trans-friends.  Since then, I don't really feel comfortable anymore making friends with guys in "male mode", to the point where it feels uncomfortable just talking with a guy after awhile.  I have even avoided posting on facebook and advertising myself looking male on the internet because I don't feel comfortable with developing an online identity that looks male.  Yes, I've really skipped much of the social media generation because of my "identity crisis."  I wish to have female friends but I want to be with them as a female, I don't want them to see me as male.  It even crushes me to feel like nobody cares to comfort me, even I was a victim of crime, because "you don't do that with males."  I just can't get over that thing in the male gender that males are expected to not even have feelings or be emotional, that males have to be stunted in emotional expression and development compared to females.
I
Everytime I deny being transfemale, It ends up with me feeling empty and my life is worthless.  It is just heartbreaking for me to remember the strong feminine feelings that I had 10 years ago, that have faded and become a lot more inaccessible now.  There were even many periods of time during the past 10 years where I did feel fully female (or fully not male), but ending when I felt like I had to continue to act male.  At times, I do feel like I'm female on the inside (a female that is wearing a "male persona" coat), other times I think of myself as male and just a female wannabe.  Nowadays, I do feel like I'm trapped inside a male body, and that I wish to have a female life.

BUT I didn't feel female when I was growing up, so is all of this just moot because I don't have license to be female, because only real transwomen felt female since 4 or 5 years old?

Hmm, no, i wouldnt say you are guilty of anything. The posts from others here is much better than mine, but please push forward and never ever give up!

As so many others have said, no, there is no qualifier that defines "Real" woman. There is no requirement that you were fully convinced at age five or six. For me that realization didn't show up until age sixty seven. It does appear that you have been struggling with this idea of who you are for quite some time. Feel free to process your thoughts here on Susan's but you might be able to make better progress spending some time discussing your questions with a gender therapist. Good luck with finding and becoming comfortable with your true self.

Tia Anne

Dont be guilty. I didnt realise till 35. My pov dealing with this stuff and guilt is yes im 35, would i have liked to go though this sooner.. yes but i cant change that now. Now if i look back at this momunt in another 10 years will i regret hiding away and not own up to who i am. The answer for me is yes im sure ill regret it if i do nothing

Good heavens, NO!  There's no qualifier before, during or after, no set of standards or desired outcome.  This is all about and only about you and how you feel about yourself.  You have a blank canvas and no one else will tell you what to paint.  When you decide where you want to go, people that have traveled similar roads will try to help you along your chosen path.  I didn't arrive here until my late 60's, no real warning or identifying habits or activities to speak of, yet here I am and just today I got man-failed and I thought I was dressed plenty guy as I had been operating heavy equipment (OK, I did have my hair pulled back, hoops in my ears, girl close shave).  I was in a grocery store and while standing and looking at items on a shelf, a young guy crossed in front of me, looked at me and said "excuse me M'am".  I smiled but thought "what the hell?".   So, you can be whatever you want and you're good here, just try and be yourself and you'll be amazed at what happens.  Toni

When you only see one depiction of a transgender person, including the media and cisgender people repeating it, you get the sense that only "those" people can be seen by society as the gender that they identify with.  My big issue has been if other people would see me as female, if it would seem to them like I was less than fully female on the inside.  Cisgender people had seemed to be taught that there is only one way to be transgender, and trans-people would be suspicious of anyone who seemed less than fully transgender.  I have feared for 17 years that people would abandon me if they saw me as less than transgender, because they would probably see me as some male trying to encroach on women's spaces (kinda like the TERFs), or some kind of pervert.  I've also felt like transgender people would also be judgmental on me, given how especially back then there was even a split in the transgender community that seemed to suggest that there was disagreement over who was a real transgender person (especially because some who got the surgery were hostile to the ones who didn't want the surgery) as well as some of my observations I really can't say on this forum.   I just have been so afraid to be seen as a freak and wierdo.  Inner doubt has plagued me in large part because I have OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) and my way of thinking (which is influenced by it) keeps me from being sure of many things.  Transgender people always seemed to be sure of who they were on the inside, and cisgender people would also note that like it was something that legitimized that they were transgender.  So thus I've felt left out all these years.

I can not say for certainty, because I am not presenting as a female, but I think it is almost a certainty that there are going to be people who are not going to see us as women, they will think we are perverts, and trying to infiltrate the sacred order of women ;p  I also think, it is likely that other TS individuals will use a scale to determine who is a "real" transsexual, and who is not. 

I'm not saying this to scare you off, but it is a reality that the both of us probably have to come to terms with.  I think a huge step for the both of us, is to be more comfortable with ourselves, rather than being concerned with the feelings of others.  It is after-all, how most people proceed through their lives, they push themselves in front of others.  And really, it sucks, it is horrible, and it is not fair.

I'm willing to take a guess, that you are just as much of a people pleaser as I am, and likewise have a guilt complex.  What you speak of are the sort of things that plague my mind at all times.  I always feel out of place, as though I am imposing on others.  I also fear how I will be treated, by others.  It is really an unhealthy way for us go through life.  It puts a huge burden on us.

I wish I could give you a better answer, I wish society were a better group of people. 

Thing is, unless you go through your entire life history with everyone you meet, why do they need to know what age you knew or didn't know? Why do they need to know the entire backstory of the girl they're serving coffee to, or saying hi to on a bus? It's not something you need to present to everyone as a sort of "certificate of authenticity".

Maybe I'm just weird but if someone tells me they're female, male, or anywhere in between, I'm like "okay, cool." I don't need to know when they first figured it out, the steps they took to get to that point, how much it bothered or didn't bother them in everyday life, etc. The truth is I have enough to worry about in my own life to take people at more than face value, and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in that.

Katelyn, your life doesn't have to be a media interview. It doesn't have to be something where you feel like you have to justify yourself to anyone.

Honestly I think that folks who have an issue with who is more "real" than someone else... well, the issue is with them and their own insecurity rather than anything to do with you. And as such, it really isn't something you should concern yourself with. Just be you, okay? As I said before, where you come from doesn't matter as much as where you want to go.

Hi Katelyn,

  I'm Laurie. Can I join this bandwagon in telling you that you have no one to justify yourself to but yourself. Cis folk and TV shows the internal squabbles among the LGBTQ community have NOTHING to do with who you are. You are the one that knows if you are one of us or not. What matters is that you accept who you are. Not me, not cis people, no one else. Even a gender therapist can only confirm that you fit their definition of transgender. They can help you explore where you fit into the spectrum and help you with other things, but you are the one that decide who and what you are and that is all that really matters Katelyn.
 
Hugs,
   Laurie

I'm in my mid 30s, only came out to myself a couple years ago. I've been in a mental transition all my life, and am just now going to begin physically transitioning. I have known something was not right as long as I can remember though. I suppose I was just waiting for someone to tell me I was supposed to be a woman all along. Nobody ever told me that before I had figured it out on my own. I was and still am to some degree jealous of those who have transitioned and cis-women alike. I also can relate to dreams of being sexual as a woman too. It's no more different than dreaming about going skydiving or wrestling a grizzly bear. Just something that you may enjoy in the future.
Nobody can tell you who you are. Its something we all have to figure out for ourselves.

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Quote from: Katelyn on January 12, 2018, 08:41:13 PM
When you only see one depiction of a transgender person, including the media and cisgender people repeating it, you get the sense that only "those" people can be seen by society as the gender that they identify with.  My big issue has been if other people would see me as female, if it would seem to them like I was less than fully female on the inside.  Cisgender people had seemed to be taught that there is only one way to be transgender, and trans-people would be suspicious of anyone who seemed less than fully transgender.  I have feared for 17 years that people would abandon me if they saw me as less than transgender, because they would probably see me as some male trying to encroach on women's spaces (kinda like the TERFs), or some kind of pervert.  I've also felt like transgender people would also be judgmental on me, given how especially back then there was even a split in the transgender community that seemed to suggest that there was disagreement over who was a real transgender person (especially because some who got the surgery were hostile to the ones who didn't want the surgery) as well as some of my observations I really can't say on this forum.   I just have been so afraid to be seen as a freak and wierdo.  Inner doubt has plagued me in large part because I have OCD (obsessive compulsive disorder) and my way of thinking (which is influenced by it) keeps me from being sure of many things.  Transgender people always seemed to be sure of who they were on the inside, and cisgender people would also note that like it was something that legitimized that they were transgender.  So thus I've felt left out all these years.

I have a friend who has OCD very badly. It affects her life a lot and will at times freeze her in the compulsive thought process. One way she has learned to handle this is to call me or my partner and ask our opinion.  Is 'X' situation OCD or a real concern? And we will give her feedback. I think in this case your OCD is freezing you. I have a practical thing for you to try. It helped me to figure myself out. (I'm a now post op transexual woman who never thought she was trans enough til she was 57.) So you don't blow up your world until you are more sure, go out of town and present female in public a few times.  Weed through the obvious nervousness you might have and ask yourself how you feel being seen as female. This will give you information on your trans status in a very practical way. It is hard to know the answers to questions you have only with theory. Get some real life experience. I used to be jealous of trans people  til I realized I am trans. Fear is a powerful enemy that also makes us doubt our true selves.
Moni