I've been on and off in different parts of the transgender community for a very long time.I do very much love interacting among others and learning about myself and each other, being able to give and receive support is probably the strongest and closest ties we have. I'm also routinely frustrated by the amount of division on opinions and political affairs. I'm on the moderate side of most subjects, and I'm routinely frustrated by transgender people who do not understand genderfluid/NB people are part of the trans* community as much as I am frustrated when I find a lot of trans people who seem far too easily  offended/mad/irritated (mainly by semantics or non-hostile comments that could be ignorant, but are ultimately harmless)


Here's one example I am confused about, so feel free to give me some insight on this, the more discussion on the topic the better.


If someone asked you "What are your pronouns?", would you be upset and angry?  Or would you use the opportunity to tell them?

On the one hand, it seems fairly polite. A lot of people get very frustrated or sad when their pronouns are used incorrectly, so being given the opportunity to be gendered correctly by a stranger 100% of the time seems like a good opportunity and shows the stranger cares about what their gender really is vs. What they look like


But some people seem to hate this because it's singling them out and reminding them they do not pass. The fact that they dont ask this of other people is reminding them that they are trans and not just cis. It also doesnt help because sometimes people don't want to be asked such a direct question and outed depending on the environment.


It seems like too much of a dual-edged sword. Like no matter what you do you would always offend or hurt someone. I did consider asking people's pronouns at one point until I found out it could be construed as hurtful rather than helpful and affirming, I guess I'll just stick to not gendering people *at all*. Generally speaking, I do not gender random strangers (i.e sir/ma'am) I hardly know, and tend to only gender people I know well.

When I see someone and am not sure of their gender; it's because I see them as in between or androgynous. Not because I think they look like a particular gender. So I don't think people should be offended you ask. It's definitely a lot better to ask then misgender a person and leave them feeling horrible about themselves for the rest of the day. It should become as much the norm as asking someone's name.

If I am unsure of someone I just use their name. I'm not going to ask what they want to be called, that just seems awkward. I can usually pick it up from observing them and the people they interact with anyway.

But to answer the question I'd rather not be asked, because it helps gauge just how much I do pass without influencing the situation. It doesn't offend me anyway, if it happens with people I don't know very well, since they don't know any better.

But if they do ask, it's fine. Feels a bit contrived, but it's fine.

Asking a person's pronouns is a bit awkward, but it is polite and respectful.  I would much rather be asked my pronouns than be misgendered.

I would be extremely upset by either question actually. But I suppose if someone had outed me I would rather be asked about pronouns than misgendered. Before I transitioned no one ever asked me which pronoun I preferred. They were never that polite about it. I had people ask me " what are you?" Or " you're a girl.......right?" or " what are you supposed to be?".  And once when I was with my mom this guy had reffered to us as "ladies". Of course my mom just had to tell him I was a boy. He sneered and said " yeah, good luck with that" and started laughing. If I don't know if someone is male or female I would never ask. I use gender neutral pronouns until I know for certain what they prefer.

I hope that I'm looking female enough that no one would need to ask.  I'm relying on clothes, hair and makeup until the HRT works more of its magic, so I'd hope that anyone would be able to figure it out by my presentation. 

I would rather be asked politely than misgendered.

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I am probably one of the few that finds being asked what pronoun to use more annoying than being misgendered

Quote from: plastic-mayhem on January 14, 2018, 02:25:43 PM
I am probably one of the few that finds being asked what pronoun to use more annoying than being misgendered

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For myself if some one asked me what pronouns I like and Name I would be fine with it. I try to go with the way some one is dressed or presenting them selves and go from there as well. Usually if some one is dressed as a female than they want to be addressed as such and vica verca 

Personally I've never really been someone to get super angry when someone names me wrong.
I don't mean to sound rude, but I kinda just find it as a waist of time. It doesn't bother me anyways, I'd just rather politely say "oh actually..." and people are usually fine.

But I mean MOST people in the world aren't transgender so MOST people in the world you meet you aren't going to say Hi I'm bob, you must be steve, btw you do go by he right? Just sometimes though you won't necessarily know and I personally just think don't worry about it first thing and if you grow a closer bond to that person then perhaps you can bring it up. But I don't really feel it's necessary to establish it right away when you meet someone.

That's just me though, I know there are people who DO want to establish that first thing, and if I meet such a person then I'd respect their request, but naturally I don't worry about it.

Assuming they actually plan on respecting my pronouns and aren't just trying to single me out and dismiss me, I'd rather be asked than have the wrong assumption rubbed in my face repeatedly. I know I don't pass 100% of the time and am not offended when people aren't sure.

I'm always happy to be asked for my pronouns,  and other trans* people I know feel the same.

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Quote from: Sam314 on January 14, 2018, 05:11:59 PM
But I mean MOST people in the world aren't transgender so MOST people in the world you meet you aren't going to say Hi I'm bob, you must be steve, btw you do go by he right?

It depends on your presentation.  I present pretty femme, so if someone doesn't think about people being transgender, they are going to identify me as female and assume she/her pronouns.  The pronoun question only arises for me if someone identifies me as trans and either is clueless (in which case they should ask) or wants to be rude (in which case they will deliberately use the wrong pronouns). 

For someone who presents more androgynously than I do, an unsuspecting person may genuinely not know what to use.  They may not think of transgender, but simply can't identify the person's gender, or they may think of trans but don't have enough obvious clues to take a guess.

Because we want people to not misgender us intentionally or accidentally, I hope all trans folk would encourage people to ask, as the less painful alternative.

Quote from: KathyLauren on January 14, 2018, 06:02:46 PM
For someone who presents more androgynously than I do, an unsuspecting person may genuinely not know what to use.  They may not think of transgender, but simply can't identify the person's gender, or they may think of trans but don't have enough obvious clues to take a guess.

You do have a fair point. For ME I just think if you're complete strangers, no need to ask about it. If I didn't know you I wouldn't want you asking me, mind your own business XD
But if we have been talking a little then it might come up as a "I just want to know so I don't accidentally insult you" thing.
Just how I feel about it, still willing to respect someone if they prefer otherwise.

Quote from: Sam314 on January 14, 2018, 05:11:59 PM
Personally I've never really been someone to get super angry when someone names me wrong.
I don't mean to sound rude, but I kinda just find it as a waist of time. It doesn't bother me anyways, I'd just rather politely say "oh actually..." and people are usually fine.

But I mean MOST people in the world aren't transgender so MOST people in the world you meet you aren't going to say Hi I'm bob, you must be steve, btw you do go by he right? Just sometimes though you won't necessarily know and I personally just think don't worry about it first thing and if you grow a closer bond to that person then perhaps you can bring it up. But I don't really feel it's necessary to establish it right away when you meet someone.

That's just me though, I know there are people who DO want to establish that first thing, and if I meet such a person then I'd respect their request, but naturally I don't worry about it.

No, most people aren't trans but people are slowly becoming more knowledgeable about trans people.  It's not something that comes up really often, but it's pretty much common knowledge that my dad has a trans daughter and other officers have asked him for advice on dealing with transgender people.

Quote from: WolfNightV4X1 on January 14, 2018, 12:57:13 AM
...  I'm also routinely frustrated by the amount of division on opinions and political affairs. ... I'm routinely frustrated by transgender people who do not understand genderfluid/NB people are part of the trans* community as much as I am frustrated when I find a lot of trans people who seem far too easily  offended/mad/irritated...

If someone asked you "What are your pronouns?", would you be upset and angry?  Or would you use the opportunity to tell them?

... It seems like too much of a dual-edged sword. Like no matter what you do you would always offend or hurt someone. I did consider asking people's pronouns at one point until I found out it could be construed as hurtful rather than helpful and affirming, I guess I'll just stick to not gendering people *at all*. ...

I think intent matters a lot... If the intent is sincere, I don't mind if someone asks me preferred pronouns.

I've been misgendered before but it's always a case where I can tell someone is managing the programming within their brain in connection with their knowledge I'm a genetic male... I often ignore it at first, especially if I'm amidst others who gender properly... the other person may even correct right away, or next item it's correct, then there's a slip again, then correct... and it gets better. (All that without my having to do a single thing but be patient.)

It would be hypocritical of me to criticize someone in that scenario because I myself have misgendered before and it was not purposeful at all. I needed time to adjust... people were thankfully patient with me... I felt bad enough as it was.

As well, I've seen trans people misgender themselves... I was at a conference once and saw it happen several times, one by a speaker.

It seems all forms of people need time to adjust... our society has a lot of boxiness because we're coming out of eras of extremely limited ways of looking at human life. We have 1000s of years of conflation of how primitive society defined things and that being "just the way it is" sort of thing.

One hypocrisy of that is even those primitive ways are not "just the way it is" but rather a way that formed through hard fought efforts to form a more civilized intelligent world... so progress was made and somehow people (societies) think that's it... this must be it and get stuck in their ways... that got passed down, including passed down to us.

If I were to detect someone purposefully saying or doing something to try to cause hurt or otherwise be disrespectful... that's a different matter altogether. It seems most often it's not this... at least not in my experience.

If someone is misgendering or the like on purpose, I think it's important to consider the greater context... is it one person you will never see again? If so, it may be better not to get trolled into looking like a complainer.

I also think sometimes when someone seems to have ill intent, perhaps trolling, it can be very powerful just say thanks and be on my way. In my way of seeing it, it sort of leaves the cause and effect with the person in a way where it will roost at the right time/way to help them advance in the way they need to. I hardly need to do anything... you reap what you sew and I also hate making demands that someone be different in areas like this if I can help it... it seems petty and lowers me... I don't need folks to gender me properly to know who I am so if it's someone in passing who is trying to be a jerk, I don't waste my time on a jerk unless it seems like there's reasonable latitude to change that and build bridges.

Not to say I won't take stands... just I've learned sometimes less is a lot more... I have no formulas... just saying sometimes it seems best to be cordial and move on if someone is trying to be purposefully hurtful.

None of this is to say acceptance and proper gendering, or at least efforts to do so in a positive way, isn't heaven... I think we all need a little of that... including cis folks frankly... it's got to be hard when you live in a mostly backwards unaccepting environment. I'm fortunate to find mostly acceptance but I try to remember it's not like that everywhere.

I've found I cannot influence how people act or think. So I really don't care. The important thing is, "How do I feel about myself" My self esteem is higher than ever and it really does not matter. Most responses are phony anyway. I can't tell you how many insincere "Have a nice day's" I've heard. If I were 5'7" I might think different. What worry's me Is no longer having the strength to defend myself. If someone misplaces a knife wound I will still bleed out because I am a hemophiliac due to taking warfarin.

Thanks for the responses, still a lot of different opinions across the board so there's not really an easy general solution when meeting someone you're unsure of their gender

@Viktor Fair point, I think when intent is meant to be good that's a fair response. I dont think watching how they dress or act is a good measure if that as well is also androgynous in nature. Perhaps using "they" would be the most honest answer at that point, really no way around that unless you outright ask their gender

@Sam314 Seems not to be a general opinion though from what I've seen, though


Sounds liked mixed reviews still but from what I've gathered, intent matters. Context probably matters too, it might be more obvious to ask about pronouns at an LGBT event than out in public, I suppose. Besides that, generally speaking, seems neutral pronouns are the only feasible solutions I can think of. I know even THEN some people will feel bad because it reminds them they do not pass and are not acknowledged as their gender buuut really not much else to do at that point, sadly part of being pre-HRT is just not easily being identified as your gender from the getgo, and those are basically the best solutions.

I think part of the reactions might be mood-based? More "down" people seem to get upset when not gendered correctly, but more "up" people might find "they" an encouraging sign that they are neither male or female in appearance and have room to grow.

I'd rather be asked.  I've never taken that question as a slight or felt outed by it.  Think about it, if the person recognizes your transness (a subconscious or minimally conscious act) would you really rather be misgendered than asked?  They already read you, either way.  In my world, there is no scenario in which I'd prefer them to get it wrong.

Stealth is what screws up your head, peeps.  Be who (TF) you are.

In Thailand we dont misgender because in adressing a person there is no gender but when we reply we denote the sex we wish to be seen. Maybe English needs a polite address word in English which does not define gender. This would eliminate alot of hard feelings when none may be intended. Also please forgive the Thais if you are misgendered, many think Sir or Madam is the same word, like the Thai language, and its alot easier to remember a shorter word, thus Sir is used wrongly.