Thinking about this question I really can't imagine of a situation where I myself would ask someone "What are your pronouns."

If someone is clearly trying but also clearly failing to look male or female, it also follows that it's clear what they're trying to do.

People like Candy Milky or Uncle Sailor Suit, on the other hand, openly and clearly broadcast the fact that they are cross-dressers who do it for kicks. They may be amused if called "she" but certainly won't be offended, so why not do so.

In the very rare case that someone's look and behaviour are so ambiguous that there really is no way to tell I'd generally just wait until I'm sure. I mean, it's possible to write a naturally flowing short story without revealing the protagonist's gender, so what's the hurry.

In my humble personal opinion asking what pronouns to use feels like just a misguided attempt to look "politically correct." I'd hate to be asked that. To my ears the question sounds like shorthand for something like:

Hey, it looks to me like you're trying to look like a girl, but you're clearly not doing it convincingly. I mean, I'd refer to you as "she" even though you're a boy because you probably might like it, but you know there's also a minuscule possibility that you put on girl clothes this morning by mistake, have a naturally weird voice, and behave like a girl because you grew up surrounded by just girls and never learnt that men walk, talk and act differently—in which case (God forbid) you just might be offended if I did use "she."
So I honestly don't know what to do.
I'm a really exemplary, politically correct person who really, truly, honest to God, cross my heart and hope to die doesn't want or dare hurt you, so please tell me what pronoun I should use in order to not make you feel bad.

I'd personally rather be misgendered—that I'd just accept as direct feedback that indicates I need to change something.

And if I really am ambiguous enough that someone can't decide what I am, I'd much prefer to simply be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?"

I find someone asking what my pronouns are just as off putting as out right using the wrong ones as its basically outing someone as being 'out of the ordinary.'

Im of the school that if you dont know; dont assume and dont say anything.

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Quote from: warlockmaker on January 15, 2018, 05:18:55 AMAlso please forgive the Thais if you are misgendered, many think Sir or Madam is the same word, like the Thai language, and its alot easier to remember a shorter word, thus Sir is used wrongly.

Thanks for that.  We were in a Thai restaurant the other day, and my wife thought that the manager addressed me as 'sir'.  I didn't hear it, so no harm, no foul.  But it is reassuring that, if he did say it, he might not have meant it the way an English-speaker would.

Quote from: zirconia on January 15, 2018, 07:11:46 AM

I'd personally rather be misgendered—that I'd just accept as direct feedback that indicates I need to change something.

Except that you don't need to change something.  You are free to change anything you like, but never ever let it be said that the way someone else addresses you obligates you to change.

You, and only you, have the power to define yourself.  Not everyone you meet will understand.  Some will make mistaken assumptions about your identity.  Some are struggling to reconcile your present with their memories of the past.  Some will ask you questions out of genuine concern that they meet you where you are.  Some are just jerks trying to make you feel bad.

None of these people have the power to make you less than you are, or to change anything about you...until you give it to them.  Don't.

Quote from: Angela Drakken on January 15, 2018, 08:08:30 AM
I find someone asking what my pronouns are just as off putting as out right using the wrong ones as its basically outing someone as being 'out of the ordinary.'

Im of the school that if you dont know; dont assume and dont say anything.

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Then you're being ridiculous, honestly.  Pronouns are an essential part of day-to-day speech.  Someone who wants to get the pronouns sorted before continuing the conversation is being polite.  Someone who misgenders you is consciously or subconsciously generating dozens of assumptions about you based on your gender as they see it which will have impact on everything that follows.

Every transgender rights organization, pressed with inquiries from cisgender folk wanting to be welcoming, will state that asking what pronouns one prefers is polite and encouraged.  People are starting to do this, and somehow it pisses you off.  Get over that.  This is what increased transgender visibility and acceptance looks like. 

Quote from: zirconia on January 15, 2018, 07:11:46 AM
Thinking about this question I really can't imagine of a situation where I myself would ask someone "What are your pronouns."

If someone is clearly trying but also clearly failing to look male or female, it also follows that it's clear what they're trying to do.

People like Candy Milky or Uncle Sailor Suit, on the other hand, openly and clearly broadcast the fact that they are cross-dressers who do it for kicks. They may be amused if called "she" but certainly won't be offended, so why not do so.

In the very rare case that someone's look and behaviour are so ambiguous that there really is no way to tell I'd generally just wait until I'm sure. I mean, it's possible to write a naturally flowing short story without revealing the protagonist's gender, so what's the hurry.

In my humble personal opinion asking what pronouns to use feels like just a misguided attempt to look "politically correct." I'd hate to be asked that. To my ears the question sounds like shorthand for something like:

Hey, it looks to me like you're trying to look like a girl, but you're clearly not doing it convincingly. I mean, I'd refer to you as "she" even though you're a boy because you probably might like it, but you know there's also a minuscule possibility that you put on girl clothes this morning by mistake, have a naturally weird voice, and behave like a girl because you grew up surrounded by just girls and never learnt that men walk, talk and act differently—in which case (God forbid) you just might be offended if I did use "she."
So I honestly don't know what to do.
I'm a really exemplary, politically correct person who really, truly, honest to God, cross my heart and hope to die doesn't want or dare hurt you, so please tell me what pronoun I should use in order to not make you feel bad.

I'd personally rather be misgendered—that I'd just accept as direct feedback that indicates I need to change something.

And if I really am ambiguous enough that someone can't decide what I am, I'd much prefer to simply be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?"

While there are fairly clear cues whether someone is trying to present as female, remember that the same isn't really true for transmasculine people. A trans man who hasn't been on HRT long enough to grow a decent beard (which can take years) often isn't going to be easily distinguishable from a butch lesbian, especially to the straight, cis majority.

Also, there are rare situations where women can't necessarily use clothing and makeup to signal gender. I used to work in a place with a unisex uniform that banned jewelry and makeup for safety/QC reasons, for instance.

You have every right to your own preferences, of course! Just pointing out that it's not always so clear cut.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 15, 2018, 04:29:02 PM
Then you're being ridiculous, honestly.  Pronouns are an essential part of day-to-day speech.  Someone who wants to get the pronouns sorted before continuing the conversation is being polite.  Someone who misgenders you is consciously or subconsciously generating dozens of assumptions about you based on your gender as they see it which will have impact on everything that follows.

Every transgender rights organization, pressed with inquiries from cisgender folk wanting to be welcoming, will state that asking what pronouns one prefers is polite and encouraged.  People are starting to do this, and somehow it pisses you off.  Get over that.  This is what increased transgender visibility and acceptance looks like.

You're out on your day to day business and some random walks up to you and asks POLITELY 'hello what are your pronouns? cause Im not sure.' (That to me is a little insulting.) Its slightly different when youre in an HR meeting and people are getting this sorted for you but for someone to walk up to somebody in their day to day and ASK what their pronouns are is both outing someone as trans, and or suggesting they dont pass.

Anyone else living in moderate stealth will probably agree with me.


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Quote from: Angela Drakken on January 15, 2018, 06:31:01 PM
You're out on your day to day business and some random walks up to you and asks POLITELY 'hello what are your pronouns? cause Im not sure.' (That to me is a little insulting.) Its slightly different when youre in an HR meeting and people are getting this sorted for you but for someone to walk up to somebody in their day to day and ASK what their pronouns are is both outing someone as trans, and or suggesting they dont pass.

Anyone else living in moderate stealth will probably agree with me.


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If complete stranger walks up to me on the street and says, "Pardon me, but I was wondering which pronouns you use...", this is already a breach of etiquette on a number of standards.  Using such an example to make a case is a well-known logical fallacy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Put aside, for the moment, the ridiculous case about which there is little disagreement.  Instead, picture a conversation in your daily goings on that involves, at a bare minimum, the exchange of names.  A person who asks in this context may be puffing up to give the appearance of enlightenment to those around, but in my experience, when I have actually been asked the question, it has been in one of two specific contexts:

1)  A transgender or LGBT gathering where personal introductions often involve everybody stating their name, how they would like to be addressed (e.g. Dr. So-and-so vs. Renae), and what pronouns they prefer. 

2)  A genuine request for information out of respect.

The first is common to the point of being a standard opening in transgender meetings.  Hell, one of the teachers in our local high school who is very supportive of the Gay/Straight Alliance and LGBT folk in general, begins her first day of the school year by saying, "My name is Mary Smith (name altered).  You may call me Mrs. Smith.  My pronouns are she/her/hers."  Anyone who gets together with other transfolk to socialize or for support has almost certainly encountered this first situation.

The second occurs when a conversation needs to occur, and the person isn't 100% sure what I want because of some subconscious or minimally conscious tension in their thinking involving gender cues.  Perhaps my voice isn't quite right, or my skeletal proportions are saying "not female" even while my gender expression usually makes my preferences fairly obvious.  The person wants a little more clarity before the conversation continues.  I am happy to provide it.

I have never personally had a totally random person get up in my space and ask me the same question.  If they did, I would ask them to kindly back off, and if they did not, I would consider my defensive options, just as I would for any other creeper.  If the person from situation #2 continued with prying questions about my transitional choices, I would unkindly ask them to back off.  This just doesn't really happen in real life.

Whether it is right or wrong, we encounter people in our lives as clearly male or female most of the time.  When we don't know, we tend to get uncomfortable.  There is likely some component of evolutionary advantage to the psychology of making a male/female designation quickly and accurately as possible.  Here is how I know that the question is both important and usually not judgment prone:  Kids ask it.

In my profession, I often encounter young children with their parents.  The pace of the ER is quick and I launch in, make my introductions, and try to get down to business.  Most often, it is a 4-8 year old female who asks, "Are you a boy or a girl."  The parents usually try to shush them or rapidly change the topic.  I crouch down to eye level and say, "I'm a girl."  Sometimes that settles the matter in the child's mind.  The most common follow up from the kid is "You're really tall."  I smile and say, "Yes, I am."  It never goes beyond that.  My height (6'2") may not be the only reason the child could not gender me correctly, but it is the only one she can articulate.  There is no judgment whatsoever in the question.  The child is simply confused.  Once the matter is settled in her mind, she's usually as happen as a bug in a sugar jar.

Despite our best intentions, adults get confused sometimes too.  You say you prefer to be misgendered.  In any such case, you have been already been "clocked", or whatever other overly dramatic word you use to mean, "recognized as gender variant."  Your preference for this over an almost always honest inquiry (100% in my personal experience) only makes sense in the context of your stealth.

It can be broken down into possibilities:

1.  Was the person being respectful?  Be respectful back, and this is important:Don't judge them.

2.  Was the person prying?  I've never personally seen it, but tell them to get lost.

3.  Were you so eager to get off the subject of being transgender that you ascribed rudeness to a person who was just trying to function well with you socially?

I'll leave it there, except to add that I've never been wounded by someone asking my pronouns, and at times and in seasons I can be fairly easily wounded.  On the flip side, I know plenty of people who have been driven utterly neurotic by their stealth. 

I never said I prefer to misgendered. I said I'd rather people didnt say anything at all if they weren't sure.
Nobody likes to have their foot in their mouth, and I don't generally enjoy having to correct anyone either.

I generally dont spend a lot (any) of my time in LGBTQ circles simply because I dont let them define me. I tend to go to more gaming, horror and comic book conventions, where I mostly run into people who might have more than ONLY ONE thing in common with me.

My choice.

Maybe youve been fortunate, in that most people youve had ask were being genuinely kind and interested, but thats not the case for everyone. You prescribe advice on your persoal experiences only. (And may also be exclusive to these LGBTQ sharing meetings..? Aside from meeting with HR at work, the conversation never came up again and everyone else fell in line almost immediately barring a few honest slip ups in the first few weeks.) That having been said, Ive noticed especially among the younger 'more enlightened' crowd 'did you just assume my gender?!' or 'ask me about my pronouns!' are common place as inappropriate jokes..

Now again, where personal experiences vary, my last stay in the hospital was rather hilarious actually, since I was there for abdominal pain so strong I couldnt walk. Every new person I met immediately asked; 'Miss is there a possibility you could be pregnant?' 'Youre certain?' It wasnt until the subject of medications came up that my little secret was revealed..

I used to worry about my height also, (6'4") my aunt however is my height and it seems almost daily I see at least one other amazonian godzilla woman in my travels and I dont feel so far out of place. Lol


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Hi, rmaddy

Quote from: rmaddy on January 15, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
Except that you don't need to change something.  You are free to change anything you like, but never ever let it be said that the way someone else addresses you obligates you to change.

You, and only you, have the power to define yourself.  Not everyone you meet will understand.  Some will make mistaken assumptions about your identity.  Some are struggling to reconcile your present with their memories of the past.  Some will ask you questions out of genuine concern that they meet you where you are.  Some are just jerks trying to make you feel bad.

None of these people have the power to make you less than you are, or to change anything about you...until you give it to them.  Don't.

Thank you for the kind words. Yes, you're right. I guess I probably just want to change for my own sake. To me it's like housecleaning—or playing an instrument. Seeing I have room for improving something gives me impetus to do so. Situations like that help me in that sense...

Quote from: rmaddy on January 15, 2018, 08:10:14 PM
Despite our best intentions, adults get confused sometimes too.  You say you prefer to be misgendered.  In any such case, you have been already been "clocked", or whatever other overly dramatic word you use to mean, "recognized as gender variant."  Your preference for this over an almost always honest inquiry (100% in my personal experience) only makes sense in the context of your stealth.

It can be broken down into possibilities:

1.  Was the person being respectful?  Be respectful back, and this is important:Don't judge them.

2.  Was the person prying?  I've never personally seen it, but tell them to get lost.

3.  Were you so eager to get off the subject of being transgender that you ascribed rudeness to a person who was just trying to function well with you socially?

I'll leave it there, except to add that I've never been wounded by someone asking my pronouns, and at times and in seasons I can be fairly easily wounded.  On the flip side, I know plenty of people who have been driven utterly neurotic by their stealth.

At first I thought you were replying to Angela but since it was I who said I prefer to be misgendered I guess your last post was addressed to me as well. If what I said offended you in some way I'm sorry.

I've never been to a transgender or LGBT meeting, but completely understand that the pronoun question would be appropriate in that context. All my transactions with people take place in the context of life in general, and that was what I had in mind as I wrote earlier.

Although, as you say, I genuinely do prefer being misgendered to being asked "Which pronoun should I use?" I also mentioned that if I seem so ambiguous as to truly puzzle someone I prefer to be asked "Are you a boy or a girl?." To me the former implies that I'm not what I seem or want to be, while the latter clarifies the issue without the implication.

If I understood what you wrote correctly, you don't mind children asking you that in the emergency room. To me the same question from adults just feels kinder. In your view, how is this different?

Here, again, I'd like to do better, so if you don't mind can you let me know what it was that I said that was wrong?

Quote from: Angela Drakken on January 15, 2018, 09:20:58 PM

My choice.

Of course.  Always. 

And, to be sure, if I offer an opinion in these forums, it is always based on my personal experience.  I'm not really clear how that statement applies to me any more than it does to you though.

Quote from: zirconia on January 15, 2018, 09:54:00 PM

At first I thought you were replying to Angela but since it was I who said I prefer to be misgendered I guess your last post was addressed to me as well. If what I said offended you in some way I'm sorry. 

The mega-post was to Angela, and you didn't offend me in any way.  Neither did she.  I was discussing an issue, not trying to tear down anyone in my community.  I would never do that.  I'm rather verbose and intellectual, but I have great love for my trans brothers and sisters.  I'm sorry if that gets lost in the rhetoric.

My response to you was the first paragraph you posted, encouraging you not to feel that if someone misgenders you, then you "need to make changes".  I hope you will always let your changes be driven from within.  Being transgender is difficult, but it isn't bad.  It is part of who you are in the deepest sense.  Own it and be proud of yourself.

Quote from: Angela Drakken on January 15, 2018, 08:08:30 AM
I find someone asking what my pronouns are just as off putting as out right using the wrong ones as its basically outing someone as being 'out of the ordinary.'

Im of the school that if you dont know; dont assume and dont say anything.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Tapatalk

I agree. It would piss me off to have someone ask me either question. Under some circumstances asking is considered PC. People have "heard" asking a trans person which pronouns a trans person prefers is the PC thing to do. I've actually seen a transwoman on YouTube state that's the correct thing to do. I totally disagree but there are circumstances where I could let it slide. When someone is beginning transition and someone honestly doesn't know that persons gender It's forgivable though I still don't agree with it. But when someone is well into transition asking about pronouns or misgendering someone is unforgivable. There's no good reason for it. It doesn't matter if someone is passable or not, if you see someone in female clothes, wearing makeup, unless you are a complete imbecile, you know that you use female pronouns with that person. Asking about prefered pronouns is just another way of misgendering someone. The person is actually saying " you don't pass, I know you were AMAB and I'm going to let you know about it."  Asking a persons pronouns are simply a way to disrespect trans people  that's considered PC and ok by CIS people. If they don't know someone's gender they need to just keep their mouth shut.

I can't answer either way. Since I don't pass and likely never will I will always be 'he/him/sir/mr'

What I can speak of is how I speak with unknowns. I phrase what I say to not require a pronoun. After that, I shut up. I'm anti-social anyway and proper small talk eludes me.

How do I know an unknown? It's almost everybody. So, I likely do it even with obvious genders out of habit.

Quote from: Julia1996 on January 16, 2018, 08:08:18 AM
It would piss me off to have someone ask me either question.

Same.  Those are lose-lose options.  Use 'they', my name, or avoid referring to me directly, all together, until you get a good feel for my gender -because that is what I would do if I were in doubt about someone else.  I would try, at all cost, to avoid making them uncomfortable.

Good question!!!

I'd DEF much prefer being asked politely what pronouns I use. Without a doubt! As someone in that in-between state that'd feel like a relief to me!!! That someone cared enough to ask than just blatantly misgender me!

I never knew someone might find that offending. Though can see that such a question might be awkward. Like if I came across a person I couldn't tell their gender, it'd feel a bit awkward to ask that I guess. But from the receiving end would see that question only as polite/considerate!

Like my dentist asked 'what do you want me to call you then?' referring to my name (after I had added in the form my name beside my legal name) that made my day!

How would anyone rather be misgendered than asked politely is beyond me! As someone who absolutely cringes at being misgendered/deadnamed (ruins my day basically) I'd much much MUCH prefer being just asked!

Quote from: ainsley on January 16, 2018, 09:08:07 AM
Same.  Those are lose-lose options.  Use 'they', my name, or avoid referring to me directly, all together, until you get a good feel for my gender -because that is what I would do if I were in doubt about someone else.  I would try, at all cost, to avoid making them uncomfortable.

I think it's a bit disingenuous for the trans community to tell people having trouble using they as a singular pronoun that it isn't difficult and/or that they are not being reasonable.  Those of us who grew up before computers, spell/grammar checkers often had to take grammar as a course or component of English language studies for several years during our primary and secondary education.  The old rules are etched pretty deep into our subconscious.

I am fully committed to they/them/their anyone who asks me to, and I even practice doing it before meeting up with someone who has expressed that preference.  Nevertheless, I have difficulty (for which I always apologize if I bungle it).

Additionally, I find it hard to follow conversations where someone is using the singular they, but there isn't enough context for me to know if they are referring to one person or a group.  At least if someone uses ze or zir, I'm not left guessing about the singularity vs plurality.

Yeah, I know, I know...that's my problem.   

Quote from: rmaddy on January 18, 2018, 09:31:30 AM
I think it's a bit disingenuous for the trans community to tell people having trouble using they as a singular pronoun that it isn't difficult and/or that they are not being reasonable.  Those of us who grew up before computers, spell/grammar checkers often had to take grammar as a course or component of English language studies for several years during our primary and secondary education.  The old rules are etched pretty deep into our subconscious.

I am fully committed to they/them/their anyone who asks me to, and I even practice doing it before meeting up with someone who has expressed that preference.  Nevertheless, I have difficulty (for which I always apologize if I bungle it).

Additionally, I find it hard to follow conversations where someone is using the singular they, but there isn't enough context for me to know if they are referring to one person or a group.  At least if someone uses ze or zir, I'm not left guessing about the singularity vs plurality.

Yeah, I know, I know...that's my problem.   

Meh, you can change.  You'll just have to try, instead of stressing about the environment changing around you.  Focus.

My point wasn't to explicitly use the term 'they', either.  It was more along the lines of:  Make every attempt to avoid making the person, whose gender you cannot identify, uncomfortable. 

Quote from: rmaddy on January 18, 2018, 09:31:30 AM
...Those of us who grew up before computers, spell/grammar checkers often had to take grammar as a course or component of English language studies for several years during our primary and secondary education. ...

You can count me in that group, too, btw.    Trust me, you can change.

God bless anyone who wants to make sure they get it right before they go ahead and actually misgender me. The world needs more people like that.

Quote from: ainsley on January 18, 2018, 12:09:14 PM
Meh, you can change.  You'll just have to try, instead of stressing about the environment changing around you.  Focus.

My point wasn't to explicitly use the term 'they', either.  It was more along the lines of:  Make every attempt to avoid making the person, whose gender you cannot identify, uncomfortable. 

I agree with that being attentive, following the person's cues and doing everything you can to gender them correctly or avoid the issue for the sake of the individual is a good strategy, but then it's a bit disingenuous to be so callous to the discomfort of the other.  Someone who asks almost certainly is trying to be nice.  Maybe it's still a buzzkill, but one we can probably weather.