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Trans with NO dysphoria?

Started by AquaWhatever, January 20, 2018, 11:58:13 AM

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AquaWhatever

I'm noticing a pattern of alot of young trans kids around my age or younger have this thought that you do not need dysphoria to be transgender..

I honestly want to here from people who feel this way but please who ever reads feel free to share your honest and respectful thoughts because this is not a hate thread or anything like that.
I just want more open discussion on it and too understand the other side.

I will share my opinion on it.

I think it's harmful as someone who had crippling dysphoria to the point of wanting to end it all many nights.
I don't think being trans is the worst thing in the world, but it's not the greatest either.
I honestly thought that
Gender Dysphoria is the diagnosis for someone transgender just like psychosis is for someone who is psychotic.
(God I hate that I had to compare the two in that sense but you know what I mean!)

I can't imagine how someone can be trans with no dysphoria at all!
I don't understand why someone would want to be trans with no dysphoria.

I've heard people counter that argument by saying they just ARE men/women/NB etc
Not trans.
But even so if a cis female woke up with male genitals she'd be mortified I'd imagine.

I can go on forever about the arguments for this.


Anyways...

Let's see how far we can get in this conversation before it gets locked.
Hopefully it won't lol.
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Deborah

I don't understand it either but I think it comes down to a matter of how you define trans.  Is it:
- A mental state of incongruent brain and body sex/gender (dysphoria)?
- The physical act of altering one's physical sex or gender presentation?
I don't think there is really any consensus on which of these is the definition but they mean two different things.


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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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Morgan78

Like, no dysphoria ever? My earliest memories are of gender dysphoria so I would consider dysphoria something I've felt all my life, but I've also had periods of my life when I was perfectly content to live as a woman, with no dysphoria. Those periods of my life do negate the fact that I am transgender. 

I guess it is possible these kids who don't have dysphoria are calling themselves trans simply because it feels like the cool thing to do or they're seeking acceptance they feel as though they otherwise couldn't get from their peers. It's also possible they truly are trans. I don't believe it's our place to judge, nor does it affect me personally as a transgender person. Everyone experiences life differently.

I would liken it to food allergies. I could die if I ate a piece of traditional cake (legitimately, life sucks sometimes), whereas someone else with the same allergy as me might just vomit until it's out of their system. We may have the same diagnosis/allergy, but are on different ends of the reaction spectrum. It's unfair of me to say their allergy isn't legitimate simply because they react differently than I do.
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Devlyn

I didn't feel like I had dysphoria, my goal was to feminize my male body. Someone pointed out that wanting to change your body is  dysphoria in its purest sense. This was in the context of whether someone male identified but presenting female (me) could approach a doctor for HRT. It turns out that the answer is yes.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn
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Roll

I've thought about this a lot lately, posted in one or two other threads on the topic even.  I hope what I am a bout to say isn't contentious, but regardless, if it is, I mean it as neutrally as humanly possible and in no way intend to judge others.

So, where I am at right now with this issue is that dysphoria is not a requirement to be transgender, but perhaps is a defacto requirement to be transsexual (with allowances mentioned below, and the defacto explained as well). This hinges on the use of the umbrella term incorporating non-conformation to gender norms in relatively minor ways, beyond the common associations to transsexuality or more evident non-conformation and presentations such as with crossdressing/drag. This also inherently means that potentially less symptomatic identities, such as  non-binary and non-conforming gender expressions, are largely a matter of self-identification, and cannot be denied those who wish it.

Having said that, I do believe there are a large group of modern youth who have latched onto the transgender identity as a way to define themselves or rebel, similar to suburban white kids feigning hip hop personas. (I believe this may be the group that perhaps shaped the feelings behind the original post.) Essentially, there are people who self identify as transgender for potentially less than honest reasons, and to them it is more about progressive political cred, rebellion against tradition, or simply wanting to be something more than a random white kid without anything special about them in the eyes of society (because let's be honest, those types are overwhelmingly white middle and upper class kids). However, I do not believe that any of us the right to judge another individual, and that we must take everyone at face value as much as humanly possible. (Essentially, I draw a line between what I view as a probable social phenomena and how I would handle it on a person to person basis.) Is there harm? Probably not anything substantial, but at the same time it can feel a bit disrespectful. To return to the feigned hip hop personas of years past, kids would often adopt and lay claim to urban culture, yet at the end of day they would not share in the suffering that so many experienced within that culture. Likewise, someone may lay claim to being transgender, but do not share in potential dysphoria, depression, and so forth. In a few years, they may graduate college, forget about the whole thing, and go on to live a completely cis-hetero-normative life. And good for them, I wouldn't wish this on anyone. A lot of that can be more than excused in the name of personal exploration, though I do admit I would probably prefer a little less radical politics in the meanwhile. (Ie: Try not to speak for a group unless you are as sure as you can be you are actually part of that group is just a good standard for anything. If you joined any organization 2 weeks ago, probably not a good idea to start putting out your own press releases. ;D)

Ultimately, though, the world is a matter of degrees. (Not to delve off topic, but this is true in everything. Matt Damon was, in my view, recently unfairly attacked for his comments expressing this in regards to sexual harassment vs rape and pedophilia, and I believe we have to recognize the fact that there is no one size fits all for life.) You can have different degrees of a condition, require different types of treatment, but still share the condition--and it still not be a competition. For instance, if two people have the flu, one very light and the other quite severe... It doesn't mean that both don't have the flu, or that the person with a more severe flu is "flu-ier". Likewise, while someone with dysphoria may have a more severe condition, it does not make them "more transgender" than someone with a smaller degree of or no dysphoria. (This was a very destructive hang up for myself, as I believe for a long time I didn't qualify or was pretending to something I didn't deserve, simply because I was never suicidal or driven to extreme hatred of my body. Was a large source of confusion for me that took a lot to get past in order to begin transitioning.)


Allowances To the seeming lack of presence of Dysphoria and Transexuality:
- Not all dysphoria manifests the same. I know mine didn't. Just because someone does not have evident dysphoria in the same way as any other person may, it does not mean that dysphoria does not exist. Dysphoria is also tricky to recognize, and so there may be large degrees of dysphoria that an individual simply does not know is dysphoria. (This was the case for me for many years, as I compare myself past and present.) Some/most of us were not fortunate enough to recognize things for what they were when we were 15, much to our current chagrin.

Use of the word defacto:
- Surgery and hormones aren't something to be taken lightly, and the overwhelming majority of people do not do so (hence the low detransition and regret rates). In order to desire surgery and hormones, there is some driving force, that something most likely being dysphoria. Therefore, it stands to reason that dysphoria is often a prerequisite to transsexual transitioning. There are exceptions, and everyone is unique, this is simply what I believe is the case in the statistical majority.
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An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
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8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
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  •  

rmaddy

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 20, 2018, 12:43:43 PM
I didn't feel like I had dysphoria, my goal was to feminize my male body. Someone pointed out that wanting to change your body is  dysphoria in its purest sense. This was in the context of whether someone male identified but presenting female (me) could approach a doctor for HRT. It turns out that the answer is yes.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I've never been able to fully grasp the nature of your experience as you describe it, but then I remind myself that grasping it really isn't part of my job description.
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Shambles

I  dont identify as trans because of my dysphoria, dysphoria helped me identiy that i am trans. Thats the best and simplest way i can describe it.

That makes no sence i know but it does to me
- Jo / Joanna

Pre-HRT Trans-Fem
16th Nov 17 - Came out to myself
7th Jan 18 - Came out to wife
31st Jan 18 - Referred to GIC / might be seen in 2020
Oct 18 - Fully out at one job, part out at another
Nov 18 - Out to close family
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Janes Groove

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Devlyn

Quote from: rmaddy on January 20, 2018, 01:33:50 PM


I've never been able to fully grasp the nature of your experience as you describe it, but then I remind myself that grasping it really isn't part of my job description.

Not understanding me but treating me as an equal is all I can ask for.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn
  •  

Roll

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 20, 2018, 02:33:03 PM
Not understanding me but treating me as an equal is all I can ask for.  :)

Hugs, Devlyn

I have a vague concept after thinking about feelings I had at one point. During the period where being trans wasn't on my conscious radar, I nonetheless would look at certain things in entertainment (usually anime for this) or porn and wished I were a far more feminine male. ("Otoko no Ko" as per Japan style, or "femboy"ish in western, usually porn, terms.) In my case, it was a somewhat less earth shattering outlet for my true desires, a stepping stone of sorts, but nonetheless I thought about it for sure. If I were younger when I started, I might even have considered making a layover in that territory to see how I felt, though I have a feeling it wouldn't have lasted very long.
~ Ellie
■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■
I ALWAYS WELCOME PMs!
(I made the s lowercase so it didn't look as much like PMS... ;D)

An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
6/23/18 - FIRST PRIDE!
8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
9/08/18 - I'M IN LOVE!!!!
2/27/19 - Name Change!

  •  

rmaddy

Following medical definitions, it is possible to be transgender (i.e. having a sense of identity at odds to some degree with the gender one was assigned at birth) without dysphoria.  In this sense, one could have a gender variant identity, but neither be bothered by it or feel any reason to do anything about it.

That said, I do think we are starting to encounter some "camp followers".  I was once berated by a teen girl, AFAB, who presented 100% female, for having the audacity to refer to them as "she" in a casual conversation during which I was given no cues to direct me otherwise.  It is a bit dreary to lift the millstone of being transgender every morning and plod dutifully onward, only to be called out as a phony by someone who doesn't appear to struggle with it at all.  Of course I can't read their thoughts.  I did, however, get the distinct impression that they found the interaction fun.  Screw that.
  •  

Roll

Quote from: rmaddy on January 20, 2018, 05:37:48 PM
I was once berated by a teen girl, AFAB, who presented 100% female, for having the audacity to refer to them as "she" in a casual conversation during which I was given no cues to direct me otherwise.  It is a bit dreary to lift the millstone of being transgender every morning and plod dutifully onward, only to be called out as a phony by someone who doesn't appear to struggle with it at all.  Of course I can't read their thoughts.  I did, however, get the distinct impression that they found the interaction fun.  Screw that.

I've been told this is pretty commonplace in high schools now.
~ Ellie
■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■
I ALWAYS WELCOME PMs!
(I made the s lowercase so it didn't look as much like PMS... ;D)

An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
6/23/18 - FIRST PRIDE!
8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
9/08/18 - I'M IN LOVE!!!!
2/27/19 - Name Change!

  •  

Loxygen

I don't (or extremely rarely) experience gender dysphoria. Occasionally I have dysphoric thoughts, however this is more often than not linked my bipolar depression making me view everything in my life in a dysphoric way (including gender).

If anything it is better to describe my transgender feelings as euphoria. When I was young (age 3-4), I used to dress up all the time and my mum would ask why i did it. I would say things like "I liked doing it", "It felt right". I never recall bad feelings or anxiety returning to my male gender.

In some of my past sexual experiences, it was not so much that I hated my body as much as I could only get aroused if I imagined I was a woman. Once again, this wasn't dypshoria, but more like I needed to affirm my gender to achieve a feeling of realness about myself.

Before transition I spent about a decade imagining what it would be like and how nice it would feel to be myself. I never focused on how horrible it was being me, and just accepted it as a fact that couldn't be changed until I transitioned.

I personally describe my journey as Gender Euphoria. Maybe my attitude is linked to my strong personal optimism, always viewing things in a good light, rather than a bad light. Maybe I have repressed the part of my brain that processes some of the bad emotions that people link to dysphoria.

When I have been to psychiatrists in the past they have assessed me as being gender dysphoric, as I clearly wanted to change my gender, and been having these thoughts all my life, however I personally think their assessment didn't match my own personal journey, but accepted it as there is only one clinical definition of what I have, and that is gender dysphoria.

Think about Birthdays when you were a child. You were extremely happy about the day (hopefully), you looked forward to it all year. Most people would say that you are euphoric on that day. But does that mean that the rest of the year is filled with dysphoric feelings? For the last few years since making the decision to medically transition, I have finally felt happy about my gender, I feel my entire life has lifted from normalcy to a new level of endless euphoria.
  •  

rmaddy

Quote from: Loxygen on January 20, 2018, 07:42:51 PM

In some of my past sexual experiences, it was not so much that I hated my body as much as I could only get aroused if I imagined I was a woman. Once again, this wasn't dypshoria, but more like I needed to affirm my gender to achieve a feeling of realness about myself.

OK, but how did you feel about that at the time?  Is it possible you are telling yesterday's stories with today's voice?  If so, it wouldn't hurt to say so...or would it?

Quote from: Loxygen on January 20, 2018, 07:42:51 PMFor the last few years since making the decision to medically transition, I have finally felt happy about my gender, I feel my entire life has lifted from normalcy to a new level of endless euphoria.

They say that laughter is the best medicine, but I think that title goes to decisions.  And again, if you have been euphoric since that decision, what were you before it?  Do tell...    8)
  •  

Roll

I think it is possible to view dysphoria as a comparative state. I would probably classify my own this way at least. It was never that I felt I couldn't be happy being male, it was that I felt I would be infinitely happier as female. And by this token, having experienced even a tiny bit of that happiness thus far, I could never go back to the previous state and to do so would cause extreme distress. (Though I also admit this is probably as well me still not coming fully to grips with my past dysphoria. It is still hard for me to comprehend that I spent so long as a shut-in, which I do now believe was in part due to exacerbation from unrecognized dysphoria, and logically may be at odds with feeling that I could have been happy to a degree as male.)
~ Ellie
■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■
I ALWAYS WELCOME PMs!
(I made the s lowercase so it didn't look as much like PMS... ;D)

An Open Letter to anyone suffering from anxiety, particularly those afraid to make your first post or continue posting!

8/30/17 - First Therapy! The road begins in earnest.
10/20/17 - First coming out (to my father)!
12/16/17 - BEGAN HRT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
5/21/18 - FIRST DAY OUT AS ME!!!!!!!!!
6/08/18 - 2,250 Hair Grafts
6/23/18 - FIRST PRIDE!
8/06/18 - 100%, completely out!
9/08/18 - I'M IN LOVE!!!!
2/27/19 - Name Change!

  •  

Loxygen

Quote from: rmaddy on January 20, 2018, 07:52:34 PM
OK, but how did you feel about that at the time?  Is it possible you are telling yesterday's stories with today's voice?  If so, it wouldn't hurt to say so...or would it?

I don't think I am using today's voice with yesterday's memories, I am fairly certain that is how I felt at the time. However it is hard to be 100% certain about anything I have felt in the past. All I have is memories and that is how I have always remembered it.

Quote from: rmaddy on January 20, 2018, 07:52:34 PM
They say that laughter is the best medicine, but I think that title goes to decisions.  And again, if you have been euphoric since that decision, what were you before it?  Do tell...    8)

I would say before the decision I would have just been in a state of normalcy. I am sure that some time in the future that what I now call my current state - a happy state (euphoric), will become the new normal. In saying that someone who is always feeling dysphoric could also describe their life as normal. Either way life now is better.

In the end all I can say that before transition I didn't fixate on what was wrong, instead I fixated on what could be.
  •  

Deborah

Quote from: Loxygen on January 20, 2018, 10:00:02 PM
In saying that someone who is always feeling dysphoric could also describe their life as normal. Either way life now is better.
I think that most people with bad dysphoria recognized that what they felt was not normal.  It might be typical for how one feels all the time but suicidal ideation and the like is not "normal".



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Love is not obedience, conformity, or submission. It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority, punishment, or reward. True love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by a healthy, unafraid human being....  - Dan Barker

U.S. Army Retired
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Michelle_P

For a very long time, I did not realize I had dysphoria.  I honestly thought that everyone felt the way I did, and my problem was that I was much weaker in mental determination or drive than most people, and that was the cause of my problems.

When I finally hit deep chronic depression and tried to end myself, I got help, was diagnosed, and eventually started HRT.  Several weeks into HRT I had periods of greater mental clarity and started to experience prolonged periods of what I called euphoria.

I asked my therapist about this.  What I felt was not euphoria, but rather how normal folks without the dysphoric depression and anxiety felt.  In retrospect, I had that dysphoria and related depression to some degree my entire adult life, and had nothing to compare it to before now.

So, yes, in one way I was trans without acknowledging or realizing my dysphoria.
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My personal transition path included medical changes.  The path others take may require no medical intervention, or different care.  We each find our own path. I provide these dates for the curious.
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Loxygen

Quote from: Michelle_P on January 20, 2018, 11:17:51 PM
So, yes, in one way I was trans without acknowledging or realizing my dysphoria.

Interesting post, maybe I too have just been viewing my life through the euphoria lens, which conveniently covers dysphoria. Not acknowledging or realising dysphoria does not diminish someone's views. ie If someone says that they do not experience dysphoria, this should not a reason to assume someone is not trans.

At the end of the day I guess it doesn't matter how you classify something, or even how someone classifies themselves, as long as a healthier outcome is achieved for the affected person, and they aren't hurting anyone else in the process.
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Allison S

I never really liked being bulky and my weight always went really low to 137 lbs from extreme dieting and then back up high even reaching 210 lbs. It's crazy how so unhappy with my body I was. I kinda still am because I'm only 4 months on hrt. I know what I like is slimmer upper body and big butt/hips. Which I feel I'm getting there now finally but my shoulders are wide and I have upper arm/stomach fat...

My point is I never knew this was dysphoria. I even fantasized having FFS without even knowing that's possible! Honestly Kaitlyn Jenner and Laverene Cox kinda helped me realize it would be something I could do too. So I "crossdressed" and it made sense.

I think it's common to not know what dysphoria is. Social dysphoria is very bad for me and I was always in denial. Drinking alcohol was my way to escape.

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