Loxygen, our stories are much alike.  I didn't bother with psychoanalysis or therapy until I really began to contemplate wanting to change my body, which I'm really happy about doing, my therapist assured me that my feelings were genuine.  It took me quite a bit of researching to realize atypical cases like ours are valid forms of transgenderness, and every few weeks someone posts another thread wondering why they felt and acted like boys when they were young, why they aren't being torn apart by desperation, etc.

It's strange to me that my awakening is taking place at a time when regulations on transitioning are becoming rapidly more lax, that public awareness is at an all time high, that it's becoming some sort of fashion statement with youth.  I carried on forever not realizing who I was, if I'd recognized my true identity I'd have faced many more uphill battles.

As a kid and teen I struggled to define my own dysphoria when I look back at it in retrospect. As a kid, I thought I was okay with my body but looking male would be "better" somehow. I didn't know how or why. I felt jealousy, but at the same time I didn't really care if I was male or female. I had too much other stuff on my mind with being bullied and then the aftermath of having been sexually abused by two of those bullies. When I entired puberty I did feel distress over growing breasts but looked forward to getting periods (although instantly disliked actually getting them). I idolised looking pre-pubescent again but didn't really wish for male genitals and how I saw my gender kept switching between male, female and neutral. I preferred wearing feminine clothes over masculine. So I would say I had a slowly developing atypical form of dysphoria that was very uneven as I grew up. If it had to do with the abuse or not I can't say for sure but I think it was a factor in my confusion, and understanding myself in general.

I realised I was trans first when I was 15 but quickly shunned that realisation and made the decision to "try to be female" instead. Then followed 4 years of denial. I don't remember having actively been aware of much of any dysphoria during most of that time, likely because I kept telling myself that it's normal to be insecure about one's own body while I buried my true feelings in some kind of drag queen costume 24/7. I barely lived day by day and couldn't see a future. It was just "this day, then this day" cause I was more often suicidal than not with repeated attempts and never had any luck with getting medications prescribed that would actually work and not do more harm instead. Self harmed a lot and made it my hobby to romantisise mental illness.

At 19 though, my buried dysphoria started blowing up in my face as I couldn't contain it anymore. My feminine outfits started feeling like prison cells reminding me of the lie I was living, and the lie itself somehow made my dysphoria much worse even after I had stopped trying ty hide from myself. Then nothing I did to try to calm and treat my dysphoria seemed to help instead, while waiting for hrt. I knew I saw myself as a guy in my mind and desired a male body, but I didn't know up until then if that was the main issue or even an issue at all for me. Upon realisation, my dysphoria was mostly centered around my chest, genitals, over all curvy body shape and lack of male secondary sex characteristics, but it didn't reach that point until I was 19-20. Before then everything was just a blur that I couldn't sort out.

My mind has always been very chaotic and it's been a lifetime struggle to separate and understand most of my thoughts, feelings, comforts and discomforts. Usually I don't notice something is wrong until it explodes in my face and is extreme. The finer nuances get lost in the general goup that is my mind. So understanding what dysphoria is, if I actually have it, how I experienced it, if I'm actually trans or just delusional, and if transitioning would be the right decision for me - has been very difficult and those questions still on occasion pop up in my head when I get too entangled and lost in my own thoughts before I realise I'm just repeating the same questions that I already know I have the answers to by now. And this might not be so good, but the clearest answer I got to whether transitioning was really the right thing for me or not and if I really had/have dysphoria or not, was that taking T and having top surgery was a great relief and only made me far more comfortable with both my body and mind, and I wouldn't go back for anything. I feel so comfortable going about my life as a man compared to how miserable I was trying to live as a girl/young woman. So ultimately I know by experience rather than by thought.

So with that wall of text and a bit of oversharing (I don't mind though) said, my own idea of what constitutes as dysphoria may or may not be like anyone else's, but it has given me an idea of what it could maybe be like for kids and teens of today who say they're trans without dysphoria. Cause it's really not easy to know what constitutes as dysphoria and what doesn't. I've seen a lot of misconceptions going around about it and... I don't know, but I want to believe it might all just come from misunderstanding. I too think that dysphoria is a requirement for being transsexual. I personally prefer saying transsexual instead of transgender, but say "trans" as short for both, I consider myself transsexual but don't like using the word transgender for myself cause of what's going on debate wise regarding that word. I don't "identify" as being trans though, cause to me it's just something I have to deal with, and not an identity. In my opinion it is a medical condition with dysphoria being the symptom. I don't know how to respectfully word my opinion on what I think about identifying as trans without dysphoria if it's not a misunderstanding, so I'm just gonna shut up about it. All I can say is that I don't agree with it, and I have strong feelings about it.

 I feel like if I claim that transgender people can't be transgender without having dysphoria, I'd be labeled "transphobic". I know a lot of people have different ideas in the community so whenever I say I feel there's a medical significance I am automatically outcasting myself by people from parts of the extreme areas of the community

Honestly, as a medically sound basis I feel dysphoria is a good descriptor of the symptom of how being transgender is portrayed, and what makes us have the "drive" to transition. If no one had ANY feelings at all, they wouldn't be transgender. Any feelings which you conclude the need to transition, in my opinion, is dysphoria.

Not everyone has extreme physical dysphoria, it can be mild. If you can't feel it at all the discomfort probably manifests itself in apathy, and "euphoria" when presenting as the correct gender. In fact, this was even my case, I felt like I SHOULD have dysphoria, but I couldnt quite put my finger on why I didnt, and then I learned I did have in those ways I just stated. 


I can't speak for everyone though so if they think they do not have dysphoria then I can't make them think they do. It's a matter of discussing the information and leaving it out there for people to draw their conclusions, if someone is right and wrong in the end, it's fine...people are right or wrong about different subjects every day and it only hurts when the information causes  actual, violent harm.

First time commenting, so please take it easy on me.
As someone that has been researching gender related issues from medication to the mental aspects for the better part of 15 years, as well as being trans myself. I do believe that one can be trans without the dysphoria. I would say it's closer to being gender queer or gender non-conforming. But it is possible as there are some of us that don't believe that being trans is all that bad.
I could see it to become a more common occurrence in the newer generations as the world becomes more accepting of trans issues as homophobia and transphobia lessens. Unfortunately the world with never be free of such things, but over time things do become common place, kind of like women wearing pants, not that women wearing pants is a bad thing.
There will always be the religious families that will shun the issue and could make their children outcasts, but there are three religious families that will openly accept them for who they are as that is how their God, Gods, or Goddesses made them.
I myself have started to lose the dysphoric portion of the GD title over the past several years as I've come to accept the fact that, unless I win the lottery or something similarly amazing happens, I will never be that feminine in appearance. I won't say that I don't struggle with depression, but there are coming more pressing matters than my lifestyle going on in my life.

TLDR: I think being trans without dysphoria is more akin to gender non-conforming or gender queer. But it is possible.

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Quote from: salaniaseviltwin on January 22, 2018, 07:09:53 AM
First time commenting, so please take it easy on me.

Don't worry, no one here bites! ... No, wait, actually I can think of few people who bite. ... Maybe quite a few... Ok, well, maybe people here bite, but it's a friendly bite. A little too friendly perhaps.

... *ahem*, Sorry, I say weird stuff a lot. But seriously, you have nothing to fear. This forum is about the most welcoming place I've ever been online.

Quote
As someone that has been researching gender related issues from medication to the mental aspects for the better part of 15 years, as well as being trans myself. I do believe that one can be trans without the dysphoria. I would say it's closer to being gender queer or gender non-conforming. But it is possible as there are some of us that don't believe that being trans is all that bad.
I could see it to become a more common occurrence in the newer generations as the world becomes more accepting of trans issues as homophobia and transphobia lessens. Unfortunately the world with never be free of such things, but over time things do become common place, kind of like women wearing pants, not that women wearing pants is a bad thing.
There will always be the religious families that will shun the issue and could make their children outcasts, but there are three religious families that will openly accept them for who they are as that is how their God, Gods, or Goddesses made them.
I myself have started to lose the dysphoric portion of the GD title over the past several years as I've come to accept the fact that, unless I win the lottery or something similarly amazing happens, I will never be that feminine in appearance. I won't say that I don't struggle with depression, but there are coming more pressing matters than my lifestyle going on in my life.

TLDR: I think being trans without dysphoria is more akin to gender non-conforming or gender queer. But it is possible.

This somewhat mirrors my feelings, in that I believe dysphoria is not a requirement to be transgender, but dysphoria may be a self-selecting lead in to being explicitly transsexual*. (* with exceptions, there are always exceptions, and those exceptions are no less trans anything for it.)

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Quote from: AquaWhatever on January 20, 2018, 11:58:13 AM
I'm noticing a pattern of alot of young trans kids around my age or younger have this thought that you do not need dysphoria to be transgender..

I honestly want to here from people who feel this way but please who ever reads feel free to share your honest and respectful thoughts because this is not a hate thread or anything like that.
I just want more open discussion on it and too understand the other side.

I will share my opinion on it.

I think it's harmful as someone who had crippling dysphoria to the point of wanting to end it all many nights.
I don't think being trans is the worst thing in the world, but it's not the greatest either.
I honestly thought that
Gender Dysphoria is the diagnosis for someone transgender just like psychosis is for someone who is psychotic.
(God I hate that I had to compare the two in that sense but you know what I mean!)

I can't imagine how someone can be trans with no dysphoria at all!
I don't understand why someone would want to be trans with no dysphoria.

I've heard people counter that argument by saying they just ARE men/women/NB etc
Not trans.
But even so if a cis female woke up with male genitals she'd be mortified I'd imagine.

I can go on forever about the arguments for this.


Anyways...

Let's see how far we can get in this conversation before it gets locked.
Hopefully it won't lol.

Looking at the discussion that's ensued, and the fact that you've posted a "transgender" question in the transsexual discussion area, I think you've muddied the water.

And under no circumstances is someone else's identity invalidating to yours. Please don't state that someone NOT feeling dysphoria is harmful. Their life is not intertwined with yours in any way.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 22, 2018, 12:20:29 PM
Looking at the discussion that's ensued, and the fact that you've posted a "transgender" question in the transsexual discussion area, I think you've muddied the water.

And under no circumstances is someone else's identity invalidating to yours. Please don't state that someone NOT feeling dysphoria is harmful. Their life is not intertwined with yours in any way.

Hugs, Devlyn

Though even though it is in the transsexual section, the consensus tends to lean towards dysphroria is not a requirement regardless.

YOU MUST HAVE DYSPHORIA TO BE TRANSGENDER. When they give you an evaluation to start hormones or just basic gender therapy you must have gender dsyphoria in order to start T and be seen as transgender. This also mean your dsyphoria can be a small amount or a big amount. And people have different places they feel the most dsyphoria (ie chest, private parts, hips, feet, etc) PLEASE DONT COME AT ME SAYING YOU DONT NEED IT. This ->-bleeped-<- is so offensive to people who go through this. My dsyphoria cause me to not want to go out and bind for more than 8 hours a day.

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You don't need it.

Quote from: EzriaDaniels on January 22, 2018, 02:29:23 PM
YOU MUST HAVE DYSPHORIA TO BE TRANSGENDER. When they give you an evaluation to start hormones or just basic gender therapy you must have gender dsyphoria in order to start T and be seen as transgender. This also mean your dsyphoria can be a small amount or a big amount. And people have different places they feel the most dsyphoria (ie chest, private parts, hips, feet, etc) PLEASE DONT COME AT ME SAYING YOU DONT NEED IT. This ->-bleeped-<- is so offensive to people who go through this. My dsyphoria cause me to not want to go out and bind for more than 8 hours a day.

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You must have dysphoria in order to be transsexual.  You must have dysphoria for treatments targeting dysphoria to be effective.  You need not have dysphoria to be transgender.  All you need is a sense of self which does not conform to the gender you were assigned at birth.  If this causes no distress, it causes no distress.

Does that make sense, Ezria?

Would you agree Devlyn? 

I do agree with that. I don't agree with absolute statements or personal circumstances presented as facts presumed to apply to everyone.

Quote from: EzriaDaniels on January 22, 2018, 02:29:23 PM
YOU MUST HAVE DYSPHORIA TO BE TRANSGENDER. When they give you an evaluation to start hormones or just basic gender therapy you must have gender dsyphoria in order to start T and be seen as transgender. This also mean your dsyphoria can be a small amount or a big amount. And people have different places they feel the most dsyphoria (ie chest, private parts, hips, feet, etc) PLEASE DONT COME AT ME SAYING YOU DONT NEED IT. This [stuff] is so offensive to people who go through this. My dsyphoria cause me to not want to go out and bind for more than 8 hours a day.

Ezria, I can certainly understand why you may feel that way, but please keep in mind that what you are describing is more associated with being transsexual than being transgender as per the umbrella term.

We are constantly told by many parts of society that we aren't really men(ftm) or women(mtf), that we just need to "get over it", or any of a billion things, it is self defeating for us to deny the expression of others simply because we may not understand it (in this case, "it" being trans without dysphoria). That is the very thing mainstream society has done to even people with the most severe dysphoria, and there is no reason to fall prey to the same mentality. We should respect those without any dysphoria, just as they should respect those with. (Unfortunately, the lack of respect can admittedly go both ways. I do recall one recent thread here, where a largely non-conforming/non binary support group wanted everyone to come to a meeting in a dress to celebrate femininity over masculinity, which was a huge trigger for some members. Likewise, the shaming of masculine interests among trans women and the desire to become more masculine among transmen is far, far too common in the larger trans movement.)

I never felt dysphoric per se cause I just recently learned the term, plus i had a superspiritual christian upbringing and only  became aware of my sexuality at 25. Since then I def have not enjoyed my anatomy. Ive tried hard but I just thought It was prolly related to my ocpd and just something id have to accept and repress. now at 29 it was only last fall I became truly conscious that I could actually change genders. Now alot of things are  making sense.

so yes im pre HRT and surgery but not hating your anatomy and masculinity seems to me highly incongruent with the nature of transexuality. This cannot be merely a fetish. Especially the "I am women" dogma. If there,s no dysphoria and no surgery how much of a women are you truly?

But im still thinking deeply about this topic.

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Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 22, 2018, 12:20:29 PM
Looking at the discussion that's ensued, and the fact that you've posted a "transgender" question in the transsexual discussion area, I think you've muddied the water.

And under no circumstances is someone else's identity invalidating to yours. Please don't state that someone NOT feeling dysphoria is harmful. Their life is not intertwined with yours in any way.

Hugs, Devlyn

It is harmful when people take harmones and regret it later because it was "cool at the time" to do.
It's harmful to people who had/have dysphoria to see people make light of it as well.
It's harmful when for the sake of not offending people, trans people with huge audiences with many impressionable young people tell them they can be trans just by liking the color blue/pink.

ANY kind of discomfort with your assigned gender at birth is a form of dysphoria.

I agree with one of the comments if you have no dysphoria it might lean towards gender non conforming,
Which would be more logical, but gender dysphoria is literally the diagnosis for transgender.

It's the diagnosis for transsexual. But that's not the question you asked. You asked about transgender. Hence my comment about muddying the water.

Now, trying to deny people their transgender identity....that's harmful.

Quote from: jonsparks on January 22, 2018, 05:43:14 PM

I never felt dysphoric per se cause I just recently learned the term, plus i had a superspiritual christian upbringing and only  became aware of my sexuality at 25. Since then I def have not enjoyed my anatomy. Ive tried hard but I just thought It was prolly related to my ocpd and just something id have to accept and repress. now at 29 it was only last fall I became truly conscious that I could actually change genders. Now alot of things are  making sense.

so yes im pre HRT and surgery but not hating your anatomy and masculinity seems to me highly incongruent with the nature of transexuality. This cannot be merely a fetish. Especially the "I am women" dogma. If there,s no dysphoria and no surgery how much of a women are you truly?

But im still thinking deeply about this topic.

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Not everyone feels the need to fully transition physically, but prefer to socially.
And even so it doesn't mAke someone less trans. If you feel discomfort with being male
And would rather be read as female that is dysphoria.
You don't  have to hate your anatomy either, dysphoria is really just feeling uncomfortable with your assigned gender at birth. So yes, technically you experienced dysphoria.

Quote from: Devlyn Marie on January 23, 2018, 12:14:00 PM
It's the diagnosis for transsexual. But that's not the question you asked. You asked about transgender. Hence my comment about muddying the water.

Now, trying to deny people their transgender identity....that's harmful.

But it's not harmful for people who never experienced dysphoria to speak on behalf of the trans community
And basically twist the whole movement to fit their narrative?

It's not harmful for people who experience dysphoria (you know, that thing that caused 40% of trans youth to kill themselves?) To be called transphobic for not painting transitioning as this beautiful luxurious lifestyle.

Is it not harmful that everything we been fighting for for years as far as medically, and scientifically to prove we exist and there's a reason for us to transition to be debunked by our own team because dysphoria sounds mean?

You do realize when trans people say you do not need dysphoria, cis conservative Christians take and twist that to say it's a choice.

And how is transgender dysphoria any difference than transsexual dysphoria?
It's called gender dysphoria for a reason.
Last I checked transsexual were trans people who went with through with surgery.

Quote from: AquaWhatever on January 23, 2018, 12:17:02 PM
Not everyone feels the need to fully transition physically, but prefer to socially.
And even so it doesn't mAke someone less trans. If you feel discomfort with being male
And would rather be read as female that is dysphoria.
You don't  have to hate your anatomy either, dysphoria is really just feeling uncomfortable with your assigned gender at birth. So yes, technically you experienced dysphoria.

my ocpd gets me hung up on wordage, syr. your refering to transgender. trans the prefix infers a crossing over like transverse and transform or transcend. transexuality isnt a feeling like transgender. its radical transfer of ones sex which culminates in surgery. Sex being the physical manifestion of sexuality. I hate blanket terminology. But im arrogant, admittedly. Ive been known to argue the dictionary is wrong lol.

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I think that we are getting hung up on terminology more than anything... Which has been only vaguely established at best, and to different people and even different cultures it means different things. Best course of action... Agree to disagree, and throw a pizza party.